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+--- Thread: Resource vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit (/showthread.php?tid=1092)
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - Wrongtoy - Jun 25 2025
(Jun 24 2025, 4:18 PM)YesYourNigelQuote:I think attempts to generate an "all women" space is extremely difficult. Women are not a monolith and not all women of all various political ideologies can "coexist" happily in one space.
These spaces aren't failing at being for "all women" due to any inherent inability to be so, they're failing because the mods are actively censoring any women who don't toe the line that they approve of. There is nothing organic in this process.
I’m done with their orientalist perspective on how the only thing that matters is the headgear Muslim women wear. Which is always anti feminist according to them.
Uhh hijab IS anti-feminist and there is no way to not make it as such. Just because Israel is shitty does not mean Palestine/Islam is good.
Is wearing a shirt anti feminist then? It isn’t required for females to wear one in public in California. Yet the overwhelming majority does regardless of the weather, and that’s more a social convention than in either Palestine or Iran as seen here https://x.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1933681077765263669 or Hind Khordary here https://x.com/jadaliyya/status/1801672279295697155. The latter is the most famous female journo in Gaza.
The most salient feminist issue in Gaza isn’t about who dons a scarf, it’s the incessant suggestion that the us needs to “liberate women.” By what, denying them pads. Baby formula. Private bathrooms. And of course the fact that 70 percent of the dead there were women and kids. But no, this is all about SCARF liberation.
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - Clover - Jun 25 2025
(Jun 25 2025, 10:07 AM)Wrongtoy(Jun 24 2025, 4:18 PM)YesYourNigelWrongtoy I’m done with their orientalist perspective on how the only thing that matters is the headgear Muslim women wear. Which is always anti feminist according to them.
Uhh hijab IS anti-feminist and there is no way to not make it as such. Just because Israel is shitty does not mean Palestine/Islam is good.
Is wearing a shirt anti feminist then? It isn’t required for females to wear one in public in California. Yet the overwhelming majority does regardless of the weather, and that’s more a social convention than in either Palestine or Iran as seen here https://x.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1933681077765263669 or Hind Khordary here https://x.com/jadaliyya/status/1801672279295697155. The latter is the most famous female journo in Gaza.
The most salient feminist issue in Gaza isn’t about who dons a scarf, it’s the incessant suggestion that the us needs to “liberate women.” By what, denying them pads. Baby formula. Private bathrooms. And of course the fact that 70 percent of the dead there were women and kids. But no, this is all about SCARF liberation.
How on earth can one equate wearing a shirt as the same thing as wearing a hijab? And claiming that women don't go topless in the West because of "social conventions" uh... That's a funny way of saying "living in a sexist society that objectifies their female bodies and is rife with rape culture and sexual harassment." I want women to be able to be comfortable being topless without sexist social taboos and I want women to not have to wear hijabs because of oppressive misogynistic religions.
The mass murder of Palestinians, especially innocent women and their children, is absolutely a serious issue, that doesn't mean dismissing the sexist oppressive Islamic religion of their country. Obviously the fact Palestinian civilians are being slaughtered and starved is the urgent matter at hand, but this isn't an "either-or" situation where we can dismiss the sexism of Islam.
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - Wrongtoy - Jun 25 2025
(Jun 25 2025, 12:35 PM)Clover(Jun 25 2025, 10:07 AM)Wrongtoy(Jun 24 2025, 4:18 PM)YesYourNigelWrongtoy I’m done with their orientalist perspective on how the only thing that matters is the headgear Muslim women wear. Which is always anti feminist according to them.
Uhh hijab IS anti-feminist and there is no way to not make it as such. Just because Israel is shitty does not mean Palestine/Islam is good.
Is wearing a shirt anti feminist then? It isn’t required for females to wear one in public in California. Yet the overwhelming majority does regardless of the weather, and that’s more a social convention than in either Palestine or Iran as seen here https://x.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1933681077765263669 or Hind Khordary here https://x.com/jadaliyya/status/1801672279295697155. The latter is the most famous female journo in Gaza.
The most salient feminist issue in Gaza isn’t about who dons a scarf, it’s the incessant suggestion that the us needs to “liberate women.” By what, denying them pads. Baby formula. Private bathrooms. And of course the fact that 70 percent of the dead there were women and kids. But no, this is all about SCARF liberation.
How on earth can one equate wearing a shirt as the same thing as wearing a hijab? And claiming that women don't go topless in the West because of "social conventions" uh... That's a funny way of saying "living in a sexist society that objectifies their female bodies and is rife with rape culture and sexual harassment." I want women to be able to be comfortable being topless without sexist social taboos and I want women to not have to wear hijabs because of oppressive misogynistic religions.
The mass murder of Palestinians, especially innocent women and their children, is absolutely a serious issue, that doesn't mean dismissing the sexist oppressive Islamic religion of their country. Obviously the fact Palestinian civilians are being slaughtered and starved is the urgent matter at hand, but this isn't an "either-or" situation where we can dismiss the sexism
These are both social conventions. Back when I had my mastectomy for cancer, I did consider just not doing the reconstruction. Ir wouldn’t have stopped everyone from looking. Whether with fake moons which I have or a chest scar I wouldn’t be comfortable in public without a shirt. So it’s easy to see how hijabi might feel the same about their head covering.
Theres so much backlash against western feminism toward the me bc it focuses on literal clothing as opposed to universal feminist and human rights. Like pads, prenatals and baby formula. I’m sorry but that’s the bare minimum in human rights. Not whether women wear a scarf or not.
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - Clover - Jun 25 2025
(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy(Jun 25 2025, 12:35 PM)Clover(Jun 25 2025, 10:07 AM)Wrongtoy(Jun 24 2025, 4:18 PM)YesYourNigelWrongtoy I’m done with their orientalist perspective on how the only thing that matters is the headgear Muslim women wear. Which is always anti feminist according to them.
Uhh hijab IS anti-feminist and there is no way to not make it as such. Just because Israel is shitty does not mean Palestine/Islam is good.
Is wearing a shirt anti feminist then? It isn’t required for females to wear one in public in California. Yet the overwhelming majority does regardless of the weather, and that’s more a social convention than in either Palestine or Iran as seen here https://x.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1933681077765263669 or Hind Khordary here https://x.com/jadaliyya/status/1801672279295697155. The latter is the most famous female journo in Gaza.
The most salient feminist issue in Gaza isn’t about who dons a scarf, it’s the incessant suggestion that the us needs to “liberate women.” By what, denying them pads. Baby formula. Private bathrooms. And of course the fact that 70 percent of the dead there were women and kids. But no, this is all about SCARF liberation.
How on earth can one equate wearing a shirt as the same thing as wearing a hijab? And claiming that women don't go topless in the West because of "social conventions" uh... That's a funny way of saying "living in a sexist society that objectifies their female bodies and is rife with rape culture and sexual harassment." I want women to be able to be comfortable being topless without sexist social taboos and I want women to not have to wear hijabs because of oppressive misogynistic religions.
The mass murder of Palestinians, especially innocent women and their children, is absolutely a serious issue, that doesn't mean dismissing the sexist oppressive Islamic religion of their country. Obviously the fact Palestinian civilians are being slaughtered and starved is the urgent matter at hand, but this isn't an "either-or" situation where we can dismiss the sexism
These are both social conventions. Back when I had my mastectomy for cancer, I did consider just not doing the reconstruction. Ir wouldn’t have stopped everyone from looking. Whether with fake moons which I have or a chest scar I wouldn’t be comfortable in public without a shirt. So it’s easy to see how hijabi might feel the same about their head covering.
Sure, they are both "social conventions" in the sense they are both social conventions rooted in misogyny that should be done away with completely. Something being a "social convention" doesn't mean it's justifiable.
I think it's strange to equate a woman not wanting to be topless because of mastectomy scars to a woman not wanting to be headscarf-less because of a misogynistic religion that told them they would be "unpure" or "immodest" without it. I do not think these are comparable. It is common for people to feel self conscious about scarring. It is also common for people to feel self conscious about their bare bodies regardless of scarring. Therefore, it is possible for women to not want to be topless for reasons other than systemic misogyny/risk of sexual harassment. However, to possibly suggest the reason women are uncomfortable being topless isn't largely due to systemic misogyny, is absurd. Likewise, to suggest the reason women who wear hijabs is because they're just uncomfortable with people seeing their hair, is extremely absurd, given the reason for the hijab existing is due to an Abrahamic religion's misogynistic purity culture.
(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy Theres so much backlash against western feminism toward the me bc it focuses on literal clothing as opposed to universal feminist and human rights. Like pads, prenatals and baby formula. I’m sorry but that’s the bare minimum in human rights. Not whether women wear a scarf or not.
Again, this isn't an "either-or" — both are misogynistic practices that are worthy of criticism.
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - Wrongtoy - Jun 25 2025
(Jun 25 2025, 2:14 PM)Clover(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy(Jun 25 2025, 12:35 PM)Clover(Jun 25 2025, 10:07 AM)Wrongtoy(Jun 24 2025, 4:18 PM)YesYourNigel Uhh hijab IS anti-feminist and there is no way to not make it as such. Just because Israel is shitty does not mean Palestine/Islam is good.
Is wearing a shirt anti feminist then? It isn’t required for females to wear one in public in California. Yet the overwhelming majority does regardless of the weather, and that’s more a social convention than in either Palestine or Iran as seen here https://x.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1933681077765263669 or Hind Khordary here https://x.com/jadaliyya/status/1801672279295697155. The latter is the most famous female journo in Gaza.
The most salient feminist issue in Gaza isn’t about who dons a scarf, it’s the incessant suggestion that the us needs to “liberate women.” By what, denying them pads. Baby formula. Private bathrooms. And of course the fact that 70 percent of the dead there were women and kids. But no, this is all about SCARF liberation.
How on earth can one equate wearing a shirt as the same thing as wearing a hijab? And claiming that women don't go topless in the West because of "social conventions" uh... That's a funny way of saying "living in a sexist society that objectifies their female bodies and is rife with rape culture and sexual harassment." I want women to be able to be comfortable being topless without sexist social taboos and I want women to not have to wear hijabs because of oppressive misogynistic religions.
The mass murder of Palestinians, especially innocent women and their children, is absolutely a serious issue, that doesn't mean dismissing the sexist oppressive Islamic religion of their country. Obviously the fact Palestinian civilians are being slaughtered and starved is the urgent matter at hand, but this isn't an "either-or" situation where we can dismiss the sexism
These are both social conventions. Back when I had my mastectomy for cancer, I did consider just not doing the reconstruction. Ir wouldn’t have stopped everyone from looking. Whether with fake moons which I have or a chest scar I wouldn’t be comfortable in public without a shirt. So it’s easy to see how hijabi might feel the same about their head covering.
Sure, they are both "social conventions" in the sense they are both social conventions rooted in misogyny that should be done away with completely. Something being a "social convention" doesn't mean it's justifiable.
I think it's strange to equate a woman not wanting to be topless because of mastectomy scars to a woman not wanting to be headscarf-less because of a misogynistic religion that told them they would be "unpure" or "immodest" without it. I do not think these are comparable. It is common for people to feel self conscious about scarring. It is also common for people to feel self conscious about their bare bodies regardless of scarring. Therefore, it is possible for women to not want to be topless for reasons other than systemic misogyny/risk of sexual harassment. However, to possibly suggest the reason women are uncomfortable being topless isn't largely due to systemic misogyny, is absurd. Likewise, to suggest the reason women who wear hijabs is because they're just uncomfortable with people seeing their hair, is extremely absurd, given the reason for the hijab existing is due to an Abrahamic religion's misogynistic purity culture.
(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy Theres so much backlash against western feminism toward the me bc it focuses on literal clothing as opposed to universal feminist and human rights. Like pads, prenatals and baby formula. I’m sorry but that’s the bare minimum in human rights. Not whether women wear a scarf or not.
Again, this isn't an "either-or" — both are misogynistic practices that are worthy of criticism.
So is it internalized nonfeminism that prompted me to get the whole reconstruction then? I’m still not showing them even if the scars don’t show. I’m not comfortable either way.
And realistically, that situation applies to most women in the US. That’s my whole point, even if legally free to take our top off very few choose to do so. So it’s hypocritical then to assume women need to be freed from articles of clothing that we ascribe negative meaning to like hijab.
So-called feminists love to say Iran is like Afghanistan when in fact most of their stem grads are women. Geez, a lot of them don’t wear headgear.
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - Clover - Jun 25 2025
(Jun 25 2025, 2:55 PM)Wrongtoy(Jun 25 2025, 2:14 PM)Clover(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy(Jun 25 2025, 12:35 PM)Clover How on earth can one equate wearing a shirt as the same thing as wearing a hijab? And claiming that women don't go topless in the West because of "social conventions" uh... That's a funny way of saying "living in a sexist society that objectifies their female bodies and is rife with rape culture and sexual harassment." I want women to be able to be comfortable being topless without sexist social taboos and I want women to not have to wear hijabs because of oppressive misogynistic religions.
The mass murder of Palestinians, especially innocent women and their children, is absolutely a serious issue, that doesn't mean dismissing the sexist oppressive Islamic religion of their country. Obviously the fact Palestinian civilians are being slaughtered and starved is the urgent matter at hand, but this isn't an "either-or" situation where we can dismiss the sexism
These are both social conventions. Back when I had my mastectomy for cancer, I did consider just not doing the reconstruction. Ir wouldn’t have stopped everyone from looking. Whether with fake moons which I have or a chest scar I wouldn’t be comfortable in public without a shirt. So it’s easy to see how hijabi might feel the same about their head covering.
Sure, they are both "social conventions" in the sense they are both social conventions rooted in misogyny that should be done away with completely. Something being a "social convention" doesn't mean it's justifiable.
I think it's strange to equate a woman not wanting to be topless because of mastectomy scars to a woman not wanting to be headscarf-less because of a misogynistic religion that told them they would be "unpure" or "immodest" without it. I do not think these are comparable. It is common for people to feel self conscious about scarring. It is also common for people to feel self conscious about their bare bodies regardless of scarring. Therefore, it is possible for women to not want to be topless for reasons other than systemic misogyny/risk of sexual harassment. However, to possibly suggest the reason women are uncomfortable being topless isn't largely due to systemic misogyny, is absurd. Likewise, to suggest the reason women who wear hijabs is because they're just uncomfortable with people seeing their hair, is extremely absurd, given the reason for the hijab existing is due to an Abrahamic religion's misogynistic purity culture.
(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy Theres so much backlash against western feminism toward the me bc it focuses on literal clothing as opposed to universal feminist and human rights. Like pads, prenatals and baby formula. I’m sorry but that’s the bare minimum in human rights. Not whether women wear a scarf or not.
Again, this isn't an "either-or" — both are misogynistic practices that are worthy of criticism.
So is it internalized nonfeminism that prompted me to get the whole reconstruction then? I’m still not showing them even if the scars don’t show. I’m not comfortable either way.
And realistically, that situation applies to most women in the US. That’s my whole point, even if legally free to take our top off very few choose to do so. So it’s hypocritical then to assume women need to be freed from articles of clothing that we ascribe negative meaning to like hijab.
So-called feminists love to say Iran is like Afghanistan when in fact most of their stem grads are women. Geez, a lot of them don’t wear headgear.
Quote:So is it internalized nonfeminism that prompted me to get the whole reconstruction then?
How would I know what specifically prompted you to get a reconstruction? I'm not you. Whether or not it's "nonfeminist" to get reconstruction after a mastectomy is a different discussion than the one at hand. Regardless, I would like to live in a world where women who had mastectomies feel comfortable being topless, regardless of if they had reconstruction or not.
Quote:I’m still not showing them even if the scars don’t show. I’m not comfortable either way.
Okay, cool. You don't have to show them, no one is asking you to. I still want women as a class to feel comfortable being bare-chested someday because I want to be rid of overwhelming amount of sexism and misogyny that makes them uncomfortable to be topless.
Quote:And realistically, that situation applies to most women in the US. That’s my whole point, even if legally free to take our top off very few choose to do so.
And do you really think it's because most women are not comfortable taking their shirts off "just because"? Why are men comfortable taking their shirts off then? What is causing most women to feel uncomfortable taking their shirts off, especially in places where men do? Hint: misogyny.
Quote:So it’s hypocritical then to assume women need to be freed from articles of clothing that we ascribe negative meaning to like hijab.
"Need to be freed" — I am hesitant to agree with or defend such a phrase, because I don't think it's anyone's place to be some sort of "savior of women" like some feminist white knight. And still, the hijab is an oppressive article of clothing that stems from misogyny and purity culture. This is similar to women not being socially comfortable with being topless in the West. Both are misogynistic social "norms." There is really no need to expend much effort to "ascribe negative meaning" to the hijab — it's pretty fucking obvious. Why don't Islamic men wear hijab? Hint: misogyny.
Quote:So-called feminists love to say Iran is like Afghanistan when in fact most of their stem grads are women. Geez, a lot of them don’t wear headgear.
To be clear, we're now talking about Iran, the country where in 2022, a young woman was detained by "morality police" for wearing her hijab wrong and then died in custody two days later? The country that then tried to stamp down mass protests against the misogynistic oppressive mandatory hijab law? The country that then gave a woman fifty lashes for posting a selfie of herself without a hijab in support of the protests? Come the fuck on.
You can criticize Israel's violence and human rights abuse against Palestinians without dismissing the female oppression of Abrahamic religions, like Islam, and the physical articles they use to enforce female oppression, like the hijab.
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - Wrongtoy - Jun 25 2025
(Jun 25 2025, 3:39 PM)Clover(Jun 25 2025, 2:55 PM)Wrongtoy(Jun 25 2025, 2:14 PM)Clover(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy(Jun 25 2025, 12:35 PM)Clover How on earth can one equate wearing a shirt as the same thing as wearing a hijab? And claiming that women don't go topless in the West because of "social conventions" uh... That's a funny way of saying "living in a sexist society that objectifies their female bodies and is rife with rape culture and sexual harassment." I want women to be able to be comfortable being topless without sexist social taboos and I want women to not have to wear hijabs because of oppressive misogynistic religions.
The mass murder of Palestinians, especially innocent women and their children, is absolutely a serious issue, that doesn't mean dismissing the sexist oppressive Islamic religion of their country. Obviously the fact Palestinian civilians are being slaughtered and starved is the urgent matter at hand, but this isn't an "either-or" situation where we can dismiss the sexism
These are both social conventions. Back when I had my mastectomy for cancer, I did consider just not doing the reconstruction. Ir wouldn’t have stopped everyone from looking. Whether with fake moons which I have or a chest scar I wouldn’t be comfortable in public without a shirt. So it’s easy to see how hijabi might feel the same about their head covering.
Sure, they are both "social conventions" in the sense they are both social conventions rooted in misogyny that should be done away with completely. Something being a "social convention" doesn't mean it's justifiable.
I think it's strange to equate a woman not wanting to be topless because of mastectomy scars to a woman not wanting to be headscarf-less because of a misogynistic religion that told them they would be "unpure" or "immodest" without it. I do not think these are comparable. It is common for people to feel self conscious about scarring. It is also common for people to feel self conscious about their bare bodies regardless of scarring. Therefore, it is possible for women to not want to be topless for reasons other than systemic misogyny/risk of sexual harassment. However, to possibly suggest the reason women are uncomfortable being topless isn't largely due to systemic misogyny, is absurd. Likewise, to suggest the reason women who wear hijabs is because they're just uncomfortable with people seeing their hair, is extremely absurd, given the reason for the hijab existing is due to an Abrahamic religion's misogynistic purity culture.
(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy Theres so much backlash against western feminism toward the me bc it focuses on literal clothing as opposed to universal feminist and human rights. Like pads, prenatals and baby formula. I’m sorry but that’s the bare minimum in human rights. Not whether women wear a scarf or not.
Again, this isn't an "either-or" — both are misogynistic practices that are worthy of criticism.
So is it internalized nonfeminism that prompted me to get the whole reconstruction then? I’m still not showing them even if the scars don’t show. I’m not comfortable either way.
And realistically, that situation applies to most women in the US. That’s my whole point, even if legally free to take our top off very few choose to do so. So it’s hypocritical then to assume women need to be freed from articles of clothing that we ascribe negative meaning to like hijab.
So-called feminists love to say Iran is like Afghanistan when in fact most of their stem grads are women. Geez, a lot of them don’t wear headgear.
Quote:So is it internalized nonfeminism that prompted me to get the whole reconstruction then?
How would I know what specifically prompted you to get a reconstruction? I'm not you. Whether or not it's "nonfeminist" to get reconstruction after a mastectomy is a different discussion than the one at hand. Regardless, I would like to live in a world where women who had mastectomies feel comfortable being topless, regardless of if they had reconstruction or not.
Quote:I’m still not showing them even if the scars don’t show. I’m not comfortable either way.
Okay, cool. You don't have to show them, no one is asking you to. I still want women as a class to feel comfortable being bare-chested someday because I want to be rid of overwhelming amount of sexism and misogyny that makes them uncomfortable to be topless.
Quote:And realistically, that situation applies to most women in the US. That’s my whole point, even if legally free to take our top off very few choose to do so.
And do you really think it's because most women are not comfortable taking their shirts off "just because"? Why are men comfortable taking their shirts off then? What is causing most women to feel uncomfortable taking their shirts off, especially in places where men do? Hint: misogyny.
Quote:So it’s hypocritical then to assume women need to be freed from articles of clothing that we ascribe negative meaning to like hijab.
"Need to be freed" — I am hesitant to agree with or defend such a phrase, because I don't think it's anyone's place to be some sort of "savior of women" like some feminist white knight. And still, the hijab is an oppressive article of clothing that stems from misogyny and purity culture. This is similar to women not being socially comfortable with being topless in the West. Both are misogynistic social "norms." There is really no need to expend much effort to "ascribe negative meaning" to the hijab — it's pretty fucking obvious. Why don't Islamic men wear hijab? Hint: misogyny.
Quote:So-called feminists love to say Iran is like Afghanistan when in fact most of their stem grads are women. Geez, a lot of them don’t wear headgear.
To be clear, we're now talking about Iran, the country where in 2022, a young woman was detained by "morality police" for wearing her hijab wrong and then died in custody two days later? The country that then tried to stamp down mass protests against the misogynistic oppressive mandatory hijab law? The country that then gave a woman fifty lashes for posting a selfie of herself without a hijab in support of the protests? Come the fuck on.
You can criticize Israel's violence and human rights abuse against Palestinians without dismissing the female oppression of Abrahamic religions, like Islam, and the physical articles they use to enforce female oppression, like the hijab.
Ok but almost all women feel that way in the west. You see a fuckton of people trying to make money as influencers and they’re not stripping off their top to be filmed in stadiums for example. It’s the one thing that could go viral that they’re not doing. Well, unless they are tifs.
When I was in hs back in 1980, some dude wore a clown wig every day to class. Whatever, he was not in the women’s, so I didn’t care about his headgear.
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - Wrongtoy - Jun 25 2025
(Jun 25 2025, 3:52 PM)Wrongtoy(Jun 25 2025, 3:39 PM)Clover(Jun 25 2025, 2:55 PM)Wrongtoy(Jun 25 2025, 2:14 PM)Clover(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy
These are both social conventions. Back when I had my mastectomy for cancer, I did consider just not doing the reconstruction. Ir wouldn’t have stopped everyone from looking. Whether with fake moons which I have or a chest scar I wouldn’t be comfortable in public without a shirt. So it’s easy to see how hijabi might feel the same about their head covering.
Sure, they are both "social conventions" in the sense they are both social conventions rooted in misogyny that should be done away with completely. Something being a "social convention" doesn't mean it's justifiable.
I think it's strange to equate a woman not wanting to be topless because of mastectomy scars to a woman not wanting to be headscarf-less because of a misogynistic religion that told them they would be "unpure" or "immodest" without it. I do not think these are comparable. It is common for people to feel self conscious about scarring. It is also common for people to feel self conscious about their bare bodies regardless of scarring. Therefore, it is possible for women to not want to be topless for reasons other than systemic misogyny/risk of sexual harassment. However, to possibly suggest the reason women are uncomfortable being topless isn't largely due to systemic misogyny, is absurd. Likewise, to suggest the reason women who wear hijabs is because they're just uncomfortable with people seeing their hair, is extremely absurd, given the reason for the hijab existing is due to an Abrahamic religion's misogynistic purity culture.
(Jun 25 2025, 1:04 PM)Wrongtoy Theres so much backlash against western feminism toward the me bc it focuses on literal clothing as opposed to universal feminist and human rights. Like pads, prenatals and baby formula. I’m sorry but that’s the bare minimum in human rights. Not whether women wear a scarf or not.
Again, this isn't an "either-or" — both are misogynistic practices that are worthy of criticism.
So is it internalized nonfeminism that prompted me to get the whole reconstruction then? I’m still not showing them even if the scars don’t show. I’m not comfortable either way.
And realistically, that situation applies to most women in the US. That’s my whole point, even if legally free to take our top off very few choose to do so. So it’s hypocritical then to assume women need to be freed from articles of clothing that we ascribe negative meaning to like hijab.
So-called feminists love to say Iran is like Afghanistan when in fact most of their stem grads are women. Geez, a lot of them don’t wear headgear.
Quote:So is it internalized nonfeminism that prompted me to get the whole reconstruction then?
How would I know what specifically prompted you to get a reconstruction? I'm not you. Whether or not it's "nonfeminist" to get reconstruction after a mastectomy is a different discussion than the one at hand. Regardless, I would like to live in a world where women who had mastectomies feel comfortable being topless, regardless of if they had reconstruction or not.
Quote:I’m still not showing them even if the scars don’t show. I’m not comfortable either way.
Okay, cool. You don't have to show them, no one is asking you to. I still want women as a class to feel comfortable being bare-chested someday because I want to be rid of overwhelming amount of sexism and misogyny that makes them uncomfortable to be topless.
Quote:And realistically, that situation applies to most women in the US. That’s my whole point, even if legally free to take our top off very few choose to do so.
And do you really think it's because most women are not comfortable taking their shirts off "just because"? Why are men comfortable taking their shirts off then? What is causing most women to feel uncomfortable taking their shirts off, especially in places where men do? Hint: misogyny.
Quote:So it’s hypocritical then to assume women need to be freed from articles of clothing that we ascribe negative meaning to like hijab.
"Need to be freed" — I am hesitant to agree with or defend such a phrase, because I don't think it's anyone's place to be some sort of "savior of women" like some feminist white knight. And still, the hijab is an oppressive article of clothing that stems from misogyny and purity culture. This is similar to women not being socially comfortable with being topless in the West. Both are misogynistic social "norms." There is really no need to expend much effort to "ascribe negative meaning" to the hijab — it's pretty fucking obvious. Why don't Islamic men wear hijab? Hint: misogyny.
Quote:So-called feminists love to say Iran is like Afghanistan when in fact most of their stem grads are women. Geez, a lot of them don’t wear headgear.
To be clear, we're now talking about Iran, the country where in 2022, a young woman was detained by "morality police" for wearing her hijab wrong and then died in custody two days later? The country that then tried to stamp down mass protests against the misogynistic oppressive mandatory hijab law? The country that then gave a woman fifty lashes for posting a selfie of herself without a hijab in support of the protests? Come the fuck on.
You can criticize Israel's violence and human rights abuse against Palestinians without dismissing the female oppression of Abrahamic religions, like Islam, and the physical articles they use to enforce female oppression, like the hijab.
Ok but almost all women feel that way in the west. You see a fuckton of people trying to make money as influencers and they’re not stripping off their top to be filmed in stadiums for example. It’s the one thing that could go viral that they’re not doing. Well, unless they are tifs.
When I was in hs back in 1980, some dude wore a clown wig every day to class. Whatever, he was not in the women’s, so I didn’t care about his headgear.
So, clover, this Iranian incident was likely intercultural. As in families. As in what’s happened with flds females and ultra orthodox in Williamsburg whose religious communities got the law against them.
You can search downtown Tehran scenes and a lot of the women are not in hijab. Certainly this one isn’t.
https://x.com/angeloinchina/status/1935679219285328363
The crisis right now isn’t that women are pressured to wear a scarf. The salient and immediate issue is that those in Palestine don’t have pads, or prenatal, or baby formula for when they can’t breastfeed due to malnutrition. It’s all about priorities and this is the top one.
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - YesYourNigel - Jun 25 2025
Wrongtoy, you are lacking some very basic, fundamental understanding of radical feminism, and also any feminism. Namely, that internalised misogyny exists, that choice feminism isn't the "gotcha" to all misogyny, and that feminism is there to address all issues of sexism rather than just the most extreme directly life-threatening ones.
Quote:Is wearing a shirt anti feminist then?
YES! The demand for women to cover up while men don't is absolutely rooted in misogyny. There is no other explanation for it.
Quote:It isn’t required for females to wear one in public in California. Yet the overwhelming majority does regardless of the weather
Because they would get sexually harassed or assaulted if they didn't! Every woman knows this is how men are going to punish them if they don't cover up.
Quote:that’s more a social convention than in either Palestine or Iran as seen here https://x.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1933681077765263669 or Hind Khordary here https://x.com/jadaliyya/status/1801672279295697155. The latter is the most famous female journo in Gaza.
Iran literally has a secret police to enforce hijab, and has had protests against it where women have gotten hurt and disappeared for refusing to wear it.
It isn't illegal in Gaza, but the vast majority wear it because of conservative Islamic sentiment.
Quote:The most salient feminist issue in Gaza isn’t about who dons a scarf, it’s the incessant suggestion that the us needs to “liberate women.”
Warmongering and invasions are never done to liberate women. Men don't actually give a shit about women's rights violations beyond trying to portray another group of men as savages so they could invade them and steal their stuff and rape their women. This does not mean that the misogyny inherent in these other groups isn't real, or worse than back home. Islamic countries genuinely are horribly misogynistic. Rather it means that the proposed "solution" is not a solution by any means, because its purpose is not to help women. It's for that same reason I wouldn't support my government invading North Korea, because I know it'd have nothing to do with liberating anyone.
Quote:Back when I had my mastectomy for cancer, I did consider just not doing the reconstruction. It wouldn’t have stopped everyone from looking. Whether with fake moons which I have or a chest scar I wouldn’t be comfortable in public without a shirt.
First, shame around masectomy has absolutely nothing to do with women not showing their breasts. Most women did not have masectomy, so trying to use your specific circumstance to explain this choice in women makes no sense. Also plenty of women do actually make use of their ability to go shirtless once they have a masectomy.
Second, women internalising the idea that their chest is shameful and akin to genitals is not proof of this being freely chosen. Women being compacent in misogynistic practices is not proof of these practices not being misogynistic. That's choice-feminism bullshit. It's even worse in this case because even normal "nice" men are not shy about threatening and excusing rape and sexual assault towards women if they don't wear a shirt outside.
Quote:Theres so much backlash against western feminism toward the me bc it focuses on literal clothing as opposed to universal feminist and human rights. Like pads, prenatals and baby formula. I’m sorry but that’s the bare minimum in human rights. Not whether women wear a scarf or not.
Feminism is not about the most basic rights imaginable for women. Many incredibly backwards patriarchal societies will agree that women shouldn't just be exterminated. But guess what, these women will still get raped, still be excluded from jobs, still be pushed into being breeding stock for men. Claiming that only the most extreme indiscriminate murdering is the only issue feminism should possibly focus on is incredibly ignorant. Furthermore, it is often all these normal everyday misogynistic signifiers and practices that women are forced into all their lives that feed into a general disdain of women that limits their lives and brainwashes them into "choosing" unequal patriarchal relationships and a state of learned helplessness.
Quote:So is it internalized nonfeminism that prompted me to get the whole reconstruction then? I’m still not showing them even if the scars don’t show.
You're claiming you had your breasts reconstructed, but also that you're not comfortable showing them? Yes, no shit, you're not supposed to show your breasts in a patriarchal society. You feeling uncomfortable doing that is a feature, not a bug. It also makes your point even more ridiculous - it's not even that you're lacking breasts and still covering them up, you have what looks like female breasts and are keenly aware of the violence that showing them would induce, and are somehow trying to deceptively portray that as your free choice that is oooh so mysterious and unique to you.
Quote:You can search downtown Tehran scenes and a lot of the women are not in hijab.
And they risk being detained by the police for it. I don't know how much more evidence you need of this being a misogynistic practice than THE FUCKING SECRET POLICE ENFORCING THE LAW FOR HIJAB! Cherry-picking a few women online who forego this doesn't disprove this misogynistic practice.
There is no reason to make excuses for hijab because even the misogynistic practice of hijab itself does not justify invasion and war crimes.
Quote:The salient and immediate issue is that those in Palestine don’t have pads, or prenatal, or baby formula for when they can’t breastfeed due to malnutrition. It’s all about priorities and this is the top one.
Women's rights are always halted by "priorities", and conservative women are trained to attack and dismiss younger liberal women as spoiled and misguided the second they demand more than the barest minimum of not being murdered.
Are you going to say anything about the shitty treatment of Islamic women once the attacks on Gaza stop and the priority turns from immediate danger to one's life to all the usual garbage Islamic cultures force onto women? Given how you're treating Iran and excusing Islamic misogynistic practices, my guess is no. The threat to women's lives, which conveniently most men who see themselves as owners of these women will also agree is bad, is a nice derailment from the more uncomfortable criticism of "normal" everyday cultural ideas in place about women being sex objects, breeding stock and property of men.
RE: vexxed.org, a successor to Ovarit - Wrongtoy - Jun 25 2025
Oh great now I’m getting downvoted over there for daring to say the hijab issue is, well, not the most imminent female priority. I do not understand the obsession with this overall whereas we see Sikh turbans and Chabad huge hats (they look Russian but I do t know the name) without any challenge or concern at all.
If I’m trapped in Gaza I’m prob wearing one of those even as a non Muslim considering I don’t have enough water or soap to wash it more than a month and its likely full of lice until I shave it off, at which point going around bald is not preferable. The bigger issue is that if I had an infant who survived, it would have been born starving or descending into starvation.