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+---- Thread: Libfem contempt of GNC women (/showthread.php?tid=1117)
Libfem contempt of GNC women - YesYourNigel - May 2 2025
I've been thinking about some paradoxical attitudes that I've seen and experienced from liberal feminist women - very pro-trans and will even vax poetical about how gender roles suck and gender nonconformity is cool and hip, yet will consistently show bafflement or straight up side-eye any rejection of femininity in women that they see.
Conventionally attractive women get more attention in the patriarchy, as well as sexual abuse that comes with this sexual attention. That much is obvious. This true observation then gets combined with the true axiom that, since women cannot be responsible for male abuse, then femininity surely cannot affect male or female ideas and behaviour in any way and is a completely neutral aspect of the whole arrangement. Women shouldn't have to change anything about what they're doing, and should instead demand men change their attitude.
The traditional patriarchal retort is that anything women do has to be defined through the eyes of men. Men present a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't deal to women where being feminine and attractive gets you seemingly positive attention, but also sexual abuse, because that's what the whole point of femininity is. The other option is being completely ignored, unwanted and stomped on for not being feminine, because there is no point in paying attention to a woman who isn't a sex object with so many actually-human men around with more important feelings and opinions. But just because women lose no matter what they do doesn't mean that anything women do is neutral.
Femininity is harmful to women because it's fundamentally rooted in patriarchal views about how women should dress and look in order to be deemed sexually appealing to men. Women can be deemed as worthy of loudly existing in a society only if they are a sex object that men want to look at and fantasise about subjugating. It's not changing anyone's mind to prove that you can be a sex object first, and also do other things or have hobbies or a diploma second. You cannot demand respect within male supremacism that sees you as a sex object while promising to pander to said demand to be a sex object. It's like saying that eating shit is actually super empowering because it's been vilified and associated with women all this time, when really women should simply not eat shit, ya know, as part of their general "reaching human equality" deal. It impacts women negatively to revolve their life around a fundamentally misogynistic, objectifying existence, not just in terms of wider societal ideas, but also in their own individual life that is limited by the constant psychological pressure of viewing oneself according to patriarchal values. "You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman."
Traditional values exert no thought to the negative impact of the patriarchy on women themselves. Women's impractical clothes are mocked because they justify why women should stay at home. Sexual harassment is bad because those women are some man's property that's being damaged. Women who are too sexually attractive deserve sexual abuse because they're not saving themselves for a man. Too much attention is given to sexually attractive women when it should be "bros over hoes". When men criticise women's choices, it's always with the purpose of maintaining their male supremacism. It's to limit and beat down on women, rather than to expand their possibilities.
That's why, for all the men complaining about feminine women unfairly getting attention, none of them advocate gender nonconformity for women. They want to maintain the misogynistic system where women are inferior sex objects that shouldn't be paid any mind to, unless they're sexy, in which case you can furiously masturbate over them while complaining over the only way you allow women to be of note in any way within your system. This is completely different from the radical feminist idea that demands that women reject misogynistic presentation because it's misogynistic, rather than because men have deemed it arbitrarily bad because anything women do = bad.
Liberal feminism doesn't want to acknowledge that femininity is problematic, so it exerts a lot of effort into making femininity respectable, since the only alternative presented is that any negative associations with femininity justifies negative treatment of women themselves. It's a knee-jerk reaction that doesn't logically follow, but is understandable. Men, and some women as well, do try to isolate gender conforming women as acceptable targets of male abuse because they garner more male attention. Men obviously do it to be able to exploit women better, whereas many NotLikeOtherGirls do it in order to have a feeling of safety from male objectification - as long as there are these other dumb girly women there to distract the men and act like lighting rods for creepy male attention, I'll be safe.
Which brings me to my point: In a world where femininity is forced on you literally since childhood, rejecting it has to be an active, consistent choice in order to be gender nonconforming. And this makes liberal feminists very uncomfortable. Why would a woman not want to be feminine? Why would she consistently reject all these things, unless she thought they were bad and, by extension, that anyone who engages in it is bad and deserving of misogynistic punishment? You can get away with some token gender nonconforming traits that might've been coincidental, but to be entirely so? To reject any femininity? That is suspicious. It obviously means you don't like it. Why don't you like it? *
When gender nonconformity gets a neutral, apolitical reason for it, you can almost hear a sigh of relief. "Oh thank god, she's just rejecting it because she thinks she has a boysoul". "Oh, I guess she's a lesbian, they work different". I think a lot of normies write GNC women off as unusual exceptions (either boy-brained or Spinster-brained), but with liberal feminists I notice that they decidedly do not like any women being GNC unless they have a firm apolitical justification for it.
- I will note that most of these women have very normie boyfriends who they don't expect to be feminine. Despite all the talk of how gender roles suck and anyone can be whatever they want, femininity is something consistently demanded only of women. Feminine men are glorified and centered, but men overall are not demanded to be feminine.
RE: Libfem contempt of GNC women - Clover - May 2 2025
I think the existence of non-gender-confirming women—ones which do not get the easy dismissive justifications mentioned like "oh well she's a lesbian so it's okay, she's different" or "oh well she has a 'boysoul' so it's okay, she's different"—does bother gender-confirming [libfem] women because it does bring into question/reflection why are those women, who have no apparent "valid" reason, not confirming gender, which then can cause internal reflection on why is the libfem woman confirming it. Especially if they are feminist women and therefore are likely exposed to articles/studies that point out that women who conform to gender/femininity/beauty culture have better employment prospects and treatment in society. I could imagine that there might be some degree of guilt, if they are aware of the fact that women who choose to be non-gender-confirming can likely suffer from decreased job opportunities and fair treatment in society.
I also think generally if the "lesbian/'boysoul'" excuses fail, they just chalk it up to the woman being "weird" or "black sheep." Which is of course similarly part of the problem—othering non-gender-confirming women.
This is how we end up with weird shit like "choice feminism" (and transgenderism, of course) as comforting cognitive dissonances to keep libfem women from thinking too hard on how they perpetuate misogyny and uphold patriarchy. That way they can give out a forced smiley *"good for yoooouuu! 😁😁 (just not for me, I'm different and 'normal'!)" to non-gender-confirming women and not think too hard about it.
I'm trying out OffMyTit's "non-gender-confirming" terminology lol.
RE: Libfem contempt of GNC women - wormwood - May 3 2025
This from NotYourNigel “ Liberal feminism doesn't want to acknowledge that femininity is problematic, so it exerts a lot of effort into making femininity respectable”
and this “ because it does bring into question/reflection why are those women, who have no apparent "valid" reason, not confirming gender, which then can cause internal reflection on why is the libfem woman confirming it.” from Kozlik
encapsulate the phenomenon beautifully, I think.
At least, the weird defensive response that I get from other women makes sense to me this way. The relative who always says “I know you don’t approve” when she does stuff with her granddaughter that reinforces beauty culture (a ‘girls’ day at a nail salon’ was the most recent example - this from a highly skilled civil engineer with an important job in her city’s infrastructure) or the friends who say “you may hate it but we are going shoe shopping” when I have never, NOT ONCE, said anything to them. Just my being there, in my sneakers and short nails without makeup, my fairly mildly gender nonconforming and heterosexual existence is enough to make them uncomfortable.
RE: Libfem contempt of GNC women - YesYourNigel - May 5 2025
Quote:I think the existence of non-gender-confirming women does bother gender-confirming [libfem] women because it does bring into question/reflection why are those women, who have no apparent "valid" reason, not confirming gender, which then can cause internal reflection on why is the libfem woman confirming it.
That suggests that they see something fishy about so many women "choosing" to conform to femininity, but I find that for many women they just...don't think about it. It's seen as an unavoidable passive cultural thing, like how most people don't think about why the standard for spice is salt+pepper and not, say, chili+paprika. Women who don't go along with it are seen as aberrations, bores and failures, but women who do are just normal. Masculine women are seen as lacking and broken, while feminine ones are seen as reaching the barest minimum standard.
I think where the conflict arises is with contentious parts of femininity, especially ones that fall alongside the Madonna-wh*re dichotomy. The constant toeing of that line puts feminine women on the defensive when it comes to anything that portrays femininity in a negative way because of how that gets used by men to justify mistreating women.
I also think that some libfem women think they're noble for demanding that makeup and high heels be just as respectable, and that masculine women are jumping ship just because masculinity is arbitrarly seen as good due to being associated with men.
Quote:I could imagine that there might be some degree of guilt, if they are aware of the fact that women who choose to be non-gender-confirming can likely suffer from decreased job opportunities and fair treatment in society.
The thing is, feminine women suffer from that, too. All women do, by nature of being women under the patriarchy. Feminine women might get a job, but they will be perceived as mere eyecandy. And feminine women will get significantly more attention from creeps. That's the thing about the patriarchy - it's a lose-lose situation. You do everything it wants to a T, and you've made yourself into an abused slave for men. You reject it, and you're punished for not performing your role. That's why I don't like when gender (non)conformity is portrayed as somehow leading to better or worse outcomes for women, because the system is set up to screw you over just as much regardless of what you do, the only difference is which means it's going to use to do it.
Quote:I also think generally if the "lesbian/'boysoul'" excuses fail, they just chalk it up to the woman being "weird" or "black sheep." Which is of course similarly part of the problem—othering non-gender-confirming women.
Yeah I find that sometimes people write it off as basically a Spinster type, or a prude. Or, if all else fails, just a random weirdo, and not someone to look up to.
btw I do appreciate people being open to changing the language they use, though I wasn't convinced by the alternatives being offered (and will have to make time to write a reply explaining why).
Quote:At least, the weird defensive response that I get from other women makes sense to me this way. The relative who always says “I know you don’t approve” when she does stuff with her granddaughter that reinforces beauty culture (a ‘girls’ day at a nail salon’ was the most recent example - this from a highly skilled civil engineer with an important job in her city’s infrastructure) or the friends who say “you may hate it but we are going shoe shopping” when I have never, NOT ONCE, said anything to them. Just my being there, in my sneakers and short nails without makeup, my fairly mildly gender nonconforming and heterosexual existence is enough to make them uncomfortable.
I have had the same experience! Had a relative receive makeup as a birthday gift and start talking about how makeup makes her feel good and how it's very empowering, while glancing at me. I never even said anything...
The thing is, yes, I hate femininity, but I hate it because I feel sad for how miserable and insecure it makes women, and how they have to maintain this cognitive dissonance where humiliating shit like lingerie and uncomfortable, revealing and tight clothing and footwear are completely normal and appropriate and even empowering because they "make them feel good" by not making them feel like ogres just by existing in their own bodies. The patriarchy invents a problem, and then gives the solution, and then portrays itself as a saviour for allowing women a tiny respite from feeling like broken, disgusting uggos after investing enough money, time and energy in makeup and plastic surgeries.
This recognition of patriarchal harm is always interpreted as some kind of catty hostility, like I'm reveling in my NotLikeOtherGirls status and taking pride in not being vain and stupid like other women. I don't think women are vain and stupid. The patriarchy is forcing vain and stupid shit onto them and limiting their lives. The women are not the problem, the patriarchy is.