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Can American women do 4B? - Berry - Nov 10 2024
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/09/us/4b-movement-trump-south-korea-wellness-cec
In light of the election, I've heard some women recently talking about the 4B movement. This is a feminist movement in South Korea where some women have sworn off men in response to horrific misogyny.
4B stands for:
1. No sex with men (bisekseu)
2. No child-rearing (bichulsan)
3. No dating men (biyeonae)
4. No marriage with men (bihon)
Do you think this movement will take off in the US/the west in general? Would it benefit feminism as a whole?
Personally I think the vast majority of women are too attached to (heterosexual) romance and the perceived need for a male partner. However if even a few women join, it's a win. I'm not sure if would lead to institutional change but on a personal level more women protecting themselves, valuing their own safety and happiness over the social expectation to give our bodies/labor to men, is always beneficial.
I'm reminded of this quote by Audre Lorde:
Quote:Caring for myself is not self-indulgence, it is self-preservation, and that is an act of political warfare.
RE: Can American women do 4B? - Clover - Nov 10 2024
Quote:Do you think this movement will take off in the US/the west in general?To be honest, I don't think it will (but it would be great if it did). I think it's similar to how results for "how do I leave America?" or other immigration related searches spiked during the 2016 election and are spiking now for the 2024 election. There's a massive boom in interest of Americans immigrating, but it translates to very little actually doing so. I think American women's talk about 4B is similar. I don't think many are actually going to go through with it.
I applaud those who do, but I think there are still just too much survival benefits to partnering with men in our patriarchal society, and women are going to realize it, consciously or not, as we slowly accept the reality of another Trump/right-wing presidency.
Quote:Would it benefit feminism as a whole?I think there are many actions a woman can take that promote feminist progress. And I do think that female separatism is one of those actions. The only concern I have with female separatism is violent backlash from men. But, of course, I do not blame the women who choose to practice female separatism for that, that is obviously completely on the idiotic, misogynistic, and abusive men who choose to react to women not interacting with them with violence or some other form of retaliation. (As opposed to reddit, where I've seen comments discussing this 4B popularity among American women right now as something that would cause more Gen Z men to go further right. Like fuck off you penis-for-brains losers. Way to prove women's point that they should completely avoid having relationships with men...)
Quote:I'm not sure if would lead to institutional change but on a personal level more women protecting themselves, valuing their own safety and happiness over the social expectation to give our bodies/labor to men, is always beneficial.Agreed, if it improves women's happiness and mental health, that's great. I'm not sure about it bringing institutional change either, because that would have to depend on the men realizing that they're the problem and they're the reason women are separating from them. As evidenced by Reddit comments that tried to put the blame for men's possible backslide further into the right on women for wanting to do 4B, I doubt it would happen. They are still too stupid and oblivious to how much misogyny there is in the world that they actively and inactively play a part in. They are choosing to do a societal "not all men" and refusing to think about why do women want to separate from men in the first place.
I wish women who are considering 4B and those who already practice it the best of luck. I also think it might be a good time to share resources on social media on how to live 4B for those who are interested since there is an increased interest. I remember one post on Tumblr circulating that was suggesting some "mild" ways of practicing female separatism, for instance, like focusing on female friendships, supporting female artists, buying from women owned businesses, and so on. This might help make women who are feeling anger at the choices of men in this election feel like they could do some things to separate themselves from suffocating male energy.
RE: Can American women do 4B? - ForeverStriving - Nov 10 2024
I think just as with other discussions of separatism, it is unlikely that a “critical mass” of women will do full 4B for the reasons you stated. I do not think it is even THAT widespread in Asia, although I could be wrong.
I have noticed in online discourse about 4B that a very cute symbol of 4 bee emoji has been used. I think one way to potentially make this movement a little more accessible is to encourage women to develop communities around fewer “bees.” For example, a woman may be dating and having sex with a man, but not having kids or getting married, so she can support other 2B women.
Along that line, let’s not forget the expanded version of 4B, 6B4T. This is another way to make the movement easier for women to get on board with. It includes swearing off beauty culture, sexist products, idol culture, religion, and porn, as well as promoting female solidarity as a tenet. I think many women can begin to adopt a few of those too.
Anything is better than nothing. I used to shave my entire body every single day. Every day. Then I got it down to 3 days a week. Now I’m down to once a week or even every other week. These changes can be shocking and extremely difficult for us because we’ve been raised in such a misogynistic culture. Baby steps need to be easily visible for women to start making a difference.
Remember that in the US, most women don’t have radical feminist friends in real life. We are a tiny minority often spread far away from each other geographically. Visibly practicing any version of 4B can be extremely isolating. I am married to a man I have sex with and even being childfree is beginning to be isolating as I watch other women around me having children. On the other hand, some women may find out about the movement after already being mothers and it’s impossible to just go back and undo that.
I think many women in the US will be open to doing what they can and participating but if it becomes a purity spiral situation where women who don’t do all the tenets are made to feel like bad feminists, it will absolutely fail. Right now I think we need to make the biggest tent possible that includes women trying to do basically anything that is actually feminist.
RE: Can American women do 4B? - Possum - Nov 11 2024
I think America's geography makes it difficult for any kind of grassroots movement to take off, including 4B. I think it works so well in Korea because Korea is small and dense enough that women can meet up in person and turn 4B into a real movement instead of a purely online thing.
It's like how the "GC" movement was always bigger and more organized in the UK than the US/Canada. In the UK everyone is only like a 4-5 hour train ride apart, everyone can realistically gather in London for a protest or something. In the US/Canada we're so spread out that it's hard to meet up, so it all happens online and either fizzles out or gets corrupted by trolls.
RE: Can American women do 4B? - ShannaBanana - Nov 17 2024
(Nov 11 2024, 9:08 AM)Possum I think America's geography makes it difficult for any kind of grassroots movement to take off, including 4B. I think it works so well in Korea because Korea is small and dense enough that women can meet up in person and turn 4B into a real movement instead of a purely online thing.
It's like how the "GC" movement was always bigger and more organized in the UK than the US/Canada. In the UK everyone is only like a 4-5 hour train ride apart, everyone can realistically gather in London for a protest or something. In the US/Canada we're so spread out that it's hard to meet up, so it all happens online and either fizzles out or gets corrupted by trolls.
This is a great observation! Yes being more spread out does pose more of a challenge. There has to be some kind of system-ized way to do this. As much as I love being able to video call, it's just not the same.
RE: Can American women do 4B? - Ishah - Nov 17 2024
I’m already a wife and a mother, so it’s not a movement I could participate in. But every single time I’ve seen the 4B movement brought up positively in the wild, i.e. not in female-exclusive spaces, some man or another has inevitably popped up to “well ackshually” and lecture about terfy the movement is. To me, the fact that men are so scared by it that they need to pre-emptively scold women for even discussing it is a sign that it could be very effective.
RE: Can American women do 4B? - Sunny - Mar 7 2025
I am 6B4T, despite technically being a mother by rape. I didn't choose that though so I feel it doesn't make me ineligible to join the movement. I def don't see it take off, as others have said, but I feel like since I am in a position where I can make this decision and want to that it is my responsibility to do this both for myself and for other women so they can see it is possible. It's one reason why I dress gnc and am loudly against makeup/shaving/kink/etc. I want other women and esp young girls to look at me and see another option. I wish I had such role models growing up.
RE: Can American women do 4B? - YesYourNigel - Mar 10 2025
(Nov 11 2024, 9:08 AM)Possum I think America's geography makes it difficult for any kind of grassroots movement to take off, including 4B. I think it works so well in Korea because Korea is small and dense enough that women can meet up in person and turn 4B into a real movement instead of a purely online thing.People going outside and meeting up? IRL???
It's like how the "GC" movement was always bigger and more organized in the UK than the US/Canada. In the UK everyone is only like a 4-5 hour train ride apart, everyone can realistically gather in London for a protest or something. In the US/Canada we're so spread out that it's hard to meet up, so it all happens online and either fizzles out or gets corrupted by trolls.
The whole trans thing spread like wildfire among the chronically online, especially in the US, so I think that shows you don't need physical proximity to organise these movements.
RE: Can American women do 4B? - OffMyTit - Mar 11 2025
ForeverStriving
I think many women in the US will be open to doing what they can and participating but if it becomes a purity spiral situation where women who don’t do all the tenets are made to feel like bad feminists, it will absolutely fail.
I feel like this is usually just them projecting onto women who have done more. If you actually support a movement, you will be focused on encouraging everyone to do as much as they can and celebrating them for it, rather than making excuses for why some people can’t do xyz. I mean, we get it, but soothing the feelings of those who can’t or won’t do the maximum can’t override the need to credit those who rise to the occasion.
The point should be setting an example for the next generation. We should be making it easier for girls and women coming after us to do tomorrow what some of us couldn’t or wouldn’t do today. Having an ideal shouldn’t automatically be dismissed as an “purity spiral.” Instead it seems like we always get mired in reassuring women who are still supporting male supremacism in optional ways that it’s ok for them to do that.
I’m about to go on a date tonight and plan to wear lipstick and mascara. I’m not flagellating myself over it and I don’t need anyone to reassure me I’m still a feminist or anything. I know it’s not feminist and I would rather not waste time in feminist spaces making excuses for why I’m doing it anyway. I honestly feel like some women just need to get over themselves, forget about being “good girls” for a change, and just be human.
RE: Can American women do 4B? - Possum - Mar 11 2025
(Mar 10 2025, 11:10 PM)YesYourNigel The whole trans thing spread like wildfire among the chronically online, especially in the US, so I think that shows you don't need physical proximity to organise these movements.Well to be fair the trans movement had funding and astroturfing from Big Pharma and god knows who else, plus support from Big Tech. A 4B movement would be unpopular with The Powers That Be, so we'd be trying to build an online movement while fighting against the algorithm and various paid anti-4B trolls. Corporate Approved movements spread like wildfire online, it seems significantly more difficult to organize grassroots movements online.