+- cloven hooves (https://clovenhooves.org)
+-- Forum: The Personal Is Political (https://clovenhooves.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Gender Critical (https://clovenhooves.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+---- Forum: Gender Nonconformity (https://clovenhooves.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=65)
+---- Thread: The (de)sexualisation of femininity (/showthread.php?tid=480)
The (de)sexualisation of femininity - YesYourNigel - Dec 24 2024
A big distinction that many feminists have noticed in how men and women approach femininity is how sexualised they perceive it to be. This results in liberal feminists that cheer on any sexualised presentation that the woman does as "for herself" (how is presentation, inherently defined by your appearance to others, supposed to be done "for yourself"?), while men jerk off in the background and agree that women pandering to men's dicks is empowering because sth sth women are totally the ones in control of men (um, what happened to "for herself" stuff?).
Women will often insist that things like high heels or makeup or pushup bras or short skirts are completely 100% nonsexual and are just done for their own sake, to "look nice" or, most egregiously, for comfort. Men might pay lip service to this, though I find this is moreso for sexualised fictional characters. But for men, the notion that women are doing this for their own sake is laughable. On one hand, men think the world revolves around them and only them, so anything a woman does, from talking to them to breathing in public, is about pandering to men. Hell, even not associating with men is an attack on men because it's not pandering enough to them (hence why, for men, misandry is women avoiding men, divorcing men, staying single etc. whereas for women, the ability to get away from your oppressor is paramount. Why would men want to trap their supposed oppressors with them? 🤔). Men simply can't comprehend that women exist beyond just their status as imperfect embodiment of male sexual ideals, so to a degree, anything women do is sexual. On the other hand, men recognise the inherrent sexualisation of femininity, because they haven't been gaslit and brainwashed all their lives to believe that it's somehow normal and acceptable to be in constant discomfort, self-hatred, state of undress and on thin ice in regards to your appearance. When you grow up all your life wearing comfy, baggy clothes and not even sparing a thought to how pretty and sexy and endearing you look to others, the notion that going so out of your way to emphasise these qualities while supposedly not caring at all about what others think...well, it's ludicrous.
Femininity is completely rooted in male ideas about women, namely the sexualisation and submission of women. Sexualisation should be obvious, but submission can be a bit more subtle - it's in obsessing over how "nice" and "pretty" you need to be for others all the time just to be allowed to exist. It's the constant self-criticism of appearance that no man deals with. It's the constant apologising over everything, and the constant concern with how you're perceived, both appearance-wise and behaviour-wise - are you too ugly? Selfish? Mean? Forward? Hysterical? Dumb? Do you look imperfect? Are you proving the stereotypes? Are you doing enough to disprove the stereotypes? Can you actually work with these men or are they just trying to get in your pants? Is having simple boundaries or not smiling enough or correcting the man going to make the him go testerical? Is just basic kindness without sucking up to the person going to get you called "mean" and "rude"? etc. etc. All this is extremely limiting stuff that men don't even think about. If they do, their standards are through the floor - rude, angry men complaining that they need to walk on eggshells because snowflakes have thin skin and can't handle slurs, or ugly af men whining about how hot women won't bang them.
Femininity starts early. Dolls, playing with mum's makeup, trying on high heels, being praised for "looking pretty"...Then in teens, in the midsts of coming to terms with your body developing and becoming openly sexualised, being told your chest is shameful and that you're ugly in your very nature unless you cover yourself up, being expected to wear lacy bras and undies that barely cover your ass, uncomfortable tight pants, tight shirts with cleavage, having to have paint on your face, on your eyes, on your mouth, just to "look pretty"... Women grow up with these things from the earliest years when sex and attractiveness aren't even on their minds. They don't even think about how men view this - it's just what girls and women wear because they're female, that's it. Different types of people just wear different things. It can't possibly all be done for the sake of men, right? After all this has been with women since they were babies, dressed in pink and flowers and needing to have long hair even if it kept getting in the way, and constantly having to be careful of getting their princess dress dirty. This can't be sexual or misogynistic, right? 🙃
Men, on the other hand, hold no such delusions. Now, certainly, men do not stop their objectification of women at femininity - they will sexualise everything women do, because merely being female makes you the designated target for men's depravity. Femininity is just a way of dressing up a women's target status so it looks more appealing and pandering, hence feminine women being more openly targeted with sexualisation. It's not a coincidence that femininity, this "culture" that according to liberal feminism exists completely independently from men's preferences and misogynistic ideas, revolves so much around sexualisation. It's not normal to have half your ass hanging out, or to have all your normal clothes accentuate your body outline and sexualised parts (even breasts, which shouldn't be sexual in any way, are purposefully accentuated in a sexual way), to have nails that hinder your normal daily functioning, to wear underwear that deliberately looks like lingerie, to walk on awkward spikes that destroy your toes, to have paint on your face just to be able to exist in public or talk to clients at work, to shave every inch of your body, to have every interaction be propped up by how "nice" or "pretty" you look, which you then lie that you totally do for yourself. THIS IS NOT NORMAL!
It's always assumed that different rules will apply to women, whereas men get to do things like wear normal comfortable shoes and normal clothes whose priority isn't to accentuate their bodily curves. Why are women from a different planet where basic human ergonomics don't apply? Where emphasising sexual body parts is suddenly normal and acceptable in public, where makeup is acceptable in a professional setting, and long hair almost obligatory? Interestingly, no-one ever asks why, if this is all so comfy, no men take it on, or better yet, why they're not expected to. Sure, some feminine men might get praise in a "YAS QUEEN" sort of way, but despite all these supposed neutral benefits, regular masculine men, even progressive and feminist ones, are still not expected to engage in any of it. Hmm 🤔
Related to a previous point, the fact that little girls, ugly women, old women etc. are expected to perform femininity despite being seen as or even mocked for their lack of sex appeal to men, is because women cannot exist without femininity. Femininity is obligatory because women cannot exist outside of being compared to this fictional male ideal of a perfect woman. Real female human beings merely exist at different levels of imperfection compared to that. A non-feminine woman is certainly is not going to be treated with the respect of a man, because she isn't a human, she's a woman, inherently defined by how much she matches the feminine ideal. If she matches it enough, she's sexualised (and then either fawned over, or hated for being a sl*t, or both simultaneously). If she's too unfortunate to be too far from the ideal, she's ignored. There is no praise, attention, or admiration given to her, either by men or women. She could be the greatest person in the world, but she'd always be a failed woman first and foremost.
Men recognise the inherent sexuality, impracticality and submission involved in a form of presentation that obsesses over old, misogynistic ideas about women, one that starts with "women need to look nice and pretty and submissive and perfect at all times, and in a way that appeals to men" and progressively expands into cultural and trendy ideas on exactly how this needs to be done. But the basic idea is always there. Women get scammed into thinking that flipping between the Madonna-wh*re role depending on the man's proclivities is somehow being liberating, instead of refusing to play the "be pretty and sexy"-game in the first place.
A big reason why women think this is all so non-sexual and so non-degrading, is that it's inherently something done for the sake of men, even if it's packaged as "women's culture" or "fashion trends". Even when women criticise and compete with each other in regards to appearance, it is still ultimately rooted in aesthetics that appeal to the male gaze or to male ideas on women. It doesn't matter whether those ideas manifest to the extreme that some men find "too much" (the oft-mocked women with too much makeup or plastic surgeries, as opposed to women who are naturally supposed to look like supermodels), or that are too detailed and specific for men to care about (nitpicks like thigh gaps, or nail art, or finicky fashion rules) because women obsess over this as a result of insecurities and direct inordinate amounts of their intellectual and creative abilities into an expected, obligatory hobby for most women. The point is that women always need to, first and foremost, work within the confines of the male-pandering feminine aesthetic, where they're just finding different ways of looking pretty. And women then get told by horny liberal men and deluded women, that some men's conservative reactions to that makes it subversive. Not every single thing a woman does is a direct response to active male requests, but all of it is based in the male-pandering ideas.
When a woman goes out with half her body on display in ways that men find attractive and resonant with their ideas about women, this isn't done for "her sake". In fact, this idea of "I do it for myself" consistently clashes with the idea that this same presentation is "sexually empowering". Femininity has Schrödinger sexuality where it's both sexual and entirely non-sexual depending on which side of the Madonna-wh*re complex the woman is supposed to fit.
When you think about it, it's completely twisted what women get away with wearing, not just in public and around children (wtf is up with women's bathing suits??), but also that we literally expect them to present this way in professional settings. But because we know that women's sexualised, submissive appearance panders to men, we simply accept and expect women to look that way. Men get to look however they want and still be respected, whereas women always need to be feminine.
This brings me to one of the reasons why male GNC gives people the ick (pure conservative knee-jerk reaction aside): 1. people suddenly realise how ridiculous and inappropriate all this sexualised femininity is when donned by a man, who exists beyond looking like someone's pretty accessory 2. femininity inherently appeals to the male gaze. So the only reason why a man might don it is if he was gay and trying to appeal to other men, or if he was a crossdressing fetishist getting his rocks off. Otherwise, ofc that men erm, people will want to see half-naked and/or attractive women everywhere. Everyone expects women to look attractive. We're not quite sure what all the straight women are supposed to get out of being exposed to all these sexualised women, and from them themselves having to always look sexy and pretty, but who gives a shit about what women want anyways? 🤷♂️ I'm sure being the prettiest of them all is its own reward, which is why none of the men are bending over backwards for it.
The notion that a man might try to pander to women is not even considered, which is especially odd given that so many women fawn over long hair on men, feminine men like Kpop stars, and crush on gay men, all of which does nothing to motivate any man to pander to that, but instead results in men mocking any female interests, whining about how women are not attracted to REAL men, or whining about how unfair and misandrist it is that average men who do nothing are not treated as supermodels, or don't have women rushing to ask them out or offer casual sex. Women develop mental illnesses from the weight of beauty standards placed on them, and meanwhile not only do men not care to take even 1% of that on (despite benefiting from historical lack of oppression for it, and actually having a choice to partake in it), but they complain incessantly about picky entitled women and how unfair the barely existent standards of male appearance are towards them.
Furthermore, men who put work into their appearance are always gay, but women who do are assumed straight. This makes the power dynamics blatantly obvious. We know whose sake this is for, even if people lie through their teeth about it.
RE: The (de)sexualisation of femininity - flytraps_ - Jan 27 2025
(Dec 24 2024, 10:46 AM)pid='867 Femininity is completely rooted in male ideas about women, namely the sexualisation and submission of women. Sexualisation should be obvious, but submission can be a bit more subtle - it's in obsessing over how "nice" and "pretty" you need to be for others all the time just to be allowed to exist. It's the constant self-criticism of appearance that no man deals with. It's the constant apologising over everything, and the constant concern with how you're perceived, both appearance-wise and behaviour-wise - are you too ugly? Selfish? Mean? Forward? Hysterical? Dumb? Do you look imperfect? Are you proving the stereotypes? Are you doing enough to disprove the stereotypes? Can you actually work with these men or are they just trying to get in your pants? Is having simple boundaries or not smiling enough or correcting the man going to make the him go testerical? Is just basic kindness without sucking up to the person going to get you called "mean" and "rude"? etc. etc. All this is extremely limiting stuff that men don't even think about. If they do, their standards are through the floor - rude, angry men complaining that they need to walk on eggshells because snowflakes have thin skin and can't handle slurs, or ugly af men whining about how hot women won't bang them.
Femininity starts early. Dolls, playing with mum's makeup, trying on high heels, being praised for "looking pretty"...Then in teens, in the midsts of coming to terms with your body developing and becoming openly sexualised, being told your chest is shameful and that you're ugly in your very nature unless you cover yourself up, being expected to wear lacy bras and undies that barely cover your ass, uncomfortable tight pants, tight shirts with cleavage, having to have paint on your face, on your eyes, on your mouth, just to "look pretty"... Women grow up with these things from the earliest years when sex and attractiveness aren't even on their minds. They don't even think about how men view this - it's just what girls and women wear because they're female, that's it. Different types of people just wear different things. It can't possibly all be done for the sake of men, right? After all this has been with women since they were babies, dressed in pink and flowers and needing to have long hair even if it kept getting in the way, and constantly having to be careful of getting their princess dress dirty. This can't be sexual or misogynistic, right? 🙃
Men, on the other hand, hold no such delusions. Now, certainly, men do not stop their objectification of women at femininity - they will sexualise everything women do, because merely being female makes you the designated target for men's depravity. Femininity is just a way of dressing up a women's target status so it looks more appealing and pandering, hence feminine women being more openly targeted with sexualisation. It's not a coincidence that femininity, this "culture" that according to liberal feminism exists completely independently from men's preferences and misogynistic ideas, revolves so much around sexualisation.
Related to a previous point, the fact that little girls, ugly women, old women etc. are expected to perform femininity despite being seen as or even mocked for their lack of sex appeal to men, is because women cannot exist without femininity. Femininity is obligatory because women cannot exist outside of being compared to this fictional male ideal of a perfect woman. Real female human beings merely exist at different levels of imperfection compared to that. A non-feminine woman is certainly is not going to be treated with the respect of a man, because she isn't a human, she's a woman, inherently defined by how much she matches the feminine ideal. If she matches it enough, she's sexualised (and then either fawned over, or hated for being a sl*t, or both simultaneously). If she's too unfortunate to be too far from the ideal, she's ignored. There is no praise, attention, or admiration given to her, either by men or women. She could be the greatest person in the world, but she'd always be a failed woman first and foremost.
Men recognise the inherent sexuality, impracticality and submission involved in a form of presentation that obsesses over old, misogynistic ideas about women, one that starts with "women need to look nice and pretty and submissive and perfect at all times, and in a way that appeals to men" and progressively expands into cultural and trendy ideas on exactly how this needs to be done. But the basic idea is always there. Women get scammed into thinking that flipping between the Madonna-wh*re role depending on the man's proclivities is somehow being liberating, instead of refusing to play the "be pretty and sexy"-game in the first place.
Femininity has Schrödinger sexuality where it's both sexual and entirely non-sexual depending on which side of the Madonna-wh*re complex the woman is supposed to fit.
Men get to look however they want and still be respected, whereas women always need to be feminine.
I Just made a post on ovarit out of exasperation about the expectation to perform femininity. I feel this describes my perspective very well. Femininity, as men view it, is a really insulting and degrading concept. Might be a bit off topic, but I think this is also why I have a hard time believing men can even love women. I don’t think they view us as whole people.