How the War Over Trans Athletes Tore a Volleyball Team Apart

clovenhooves The Personal Is Political Gender Critical Sex-Based Rights Save Women's Sports Article How the War Over Trans Athletes Tore a Volleyball Team Apart

Article How the War Over Trans Athletes Tore a Volleyball Team Apart

Print Thread

eyeswideopen

Apr 20 2025, 7:18 AM

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/20/magazine/trans-athletes-women-college-sports.html

https://archive.ph/WyECE

Honestly, about as even-handed an article as can be expected out of the NY Times. Fleming is still portrayed as the ultimate victim, but the perspectives and positions of the female athletes and coaches opposing him are also fairly described.

Reader comments are sadly filled with the common popular myths and propaganda about TIMs in female sport ("there are only a few,so what does it matter", "transwomen athletes aren't as strong as male athletes so it's still ok", "young transgirls who transitioned early don't have as much advantage as transgirls who transitioned later so that's ok", and of course the inevitable Phelps comparisons).

Edited Apr 20 2025, 7:22 AM by eyeswideopen.

eyeswideopen

Apr 20 2025, 7:18 AM #1

Wrongtoy

Apr 20 2025, 8:14 AM

This would result, Biden-administration officials hoped, in a nuanced system in which, at the lower rungs of school sports, where participation rather than competition was the focus, transgender student athletes would be able to play on teams that align with their gender identities. But at the upper echelons where scholarships and championships were at stake — as in Division I volleyball — transgender athletes might not be able to play if schools determined that their participation would risk unfair competition or injury.

In other words, the males would be allowed to knock out females to get a full ride d1 scholarship, but now that it’s off the table due to ncaa ban, they can still beat out women in high school.

Makes sense lol

Wrongtoy

Apr 20 2025, 8:14 AM #2

MenacinglyLavender
Fesbian Leminist🪻

Apr 20 2025, 11:15 AM

While I have issues with a lot of framings in the article, I do think it will be helpful in the overall “fight” over women’s sports. It takes a lot of knowledge that was only known by people that deeply follow this issue (aka us), and synthesizes it for the masses. While it won’t change the minds of any “true believers”, I do think it has the best chance of getting through the “TWAW…but have questions” crowd

On that, regardless of when transition occurs (pre/post puberty), an advantage is maintained over female athletes:

Quote:But in recent years, a growing body of evidence has indicated that differences in athletic performance exist between males and females even before puberty. Scientists have also found evidence, in animal models and cultured human cells, for what’s known as the “muscle memory theory.” This theory, as Michael Joyner, a doctor who studies sex differences in human physiology, wrote in a recent article for The Journal of Applied Physiology, posits that “the beneficial effects of high testosterone on skeletal muscle and the response to training are retained even when androgens are absent.” In other words, the physical advantages of having high levels of testosterone are believed to remain long after the testosterone is gone from the body.

All of this has contributed to the concept of “retained male advantage” — the idea that, even after hormone-suppression treatments, and even if those treatments start before puberty, trans athletes are likely to retain physical advantages over those who were born female. “The idea of retained advantage is something that has been postulated for maybe five years,” says Joanna Harper, a leading researcher of trans athletes at Oregon Health & Science University, “and it’s certainly true.”

On that no one actually has any idea how many trans people are playing in college-level sports:

Quote:In December, after Charlie Baker, president of the N.C.A.A., was asked at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing how many transgender athletes he was “aware of” who were playing N.C.A.A. sports, he answered “less than 10.” He was not asked to specify — and the N.C.A.A. has refused to clarify — how many of those were trans men and how many were trans women. Nonetheless, Baker’s number was significantly smaller than the one given to me a month earlier by Helen Carroll, the former sports project director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, who helped the N.C.A.A. design its original trans-participation policy and who continues to advise trans athletes. When I asked her in November how many trans athletes were playing in the N.C.A.A., Carroll told me that there were 40 “that the N.C.A.A. knows about.” (There are more than 500,000 athletes competing in N.C.A.A. sports most years.) She wouldn’t speculate about how many trans athletes there were in the N.C.A.A. that the N.C.A.A. didn’t know about, although Joanna Harper, the trans athlete researcher, told me that she was aware of “a few trans athletes who competed entirely in stealth in the N.C.A.A.” and who completed their eligibility before the end of 2024.

MenacinglyLavender

Fesbian Leminist🪻

Apr 20 2025, 11:15 AM #3

Quote:But in recent years, a growing body of evidence has indicated that differences in athletic performance exist between males and females even before puberty. Scientists have also found evidence, in animal models and cultured human cells, for what’s known as the “muscle memory theory.” This theory, as Michael Joyner, a doctor who studies sex differences in human physiology, wrote in a recent article for The Journal of Applied Physiology, posits that “the beneficial effects of high testosterone on skeletal muscle and the response to training are retained even when androgens are absent.” In other words, the physical advantages of having high levels of testosterone are believed to remain long after the testosterone is gone from the body.

All of this has contributed to the concept of “retained male advantage” — the idea that, even after hormone-suppression treatments, and even if those treatments start before puberty, trans athletes are likely to retain physical advantages over those who were born female. “The idea of retained advantage is something that has been postulated for maybe five years,” says Joanna Harper, a leading researcher of trans athletes at Oregon Health & Science University, “and it’s certainly true.”

On that no one actually has any idea how many trans people are playing in college-level sports:

Quote:In December, after Charlie Baker, president of the N.C.A.A., was asked at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing how many transgender athletes he was “aware of” who were playing N.C.A.A. sports, he answered “less than 10.” He was not asked to specify — and the N.C.A.A. has refused to clarify — how many of those were trans men and how many were trans women. Nonetheless, Baker’s number was significantly smaller than the one given to me a month earlier by Helen Carroll, the former sports project director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, who helped the N.C.A.A. design its original trans-participation policy and who continues to advise trans athletes. When I asked her in November how many trans athletes were playing in the N.C.A.A., Carroll told me that there were 40 “that the N.C.A.A. knows about.” (There are more than 500,000 athletes competing in N.C.A.A. sports most years.) She wouldn’t speculate about how many trans athletes there were in the N.C.A.A. that the N.C.A.A. didn’t know about, although Joanna Harper, the trans athlete researcher, told me that she was aware of “a few trans athletes who competed entirely in stealth in the N.C.A.A.” and who completed their eligibility before the end of 2024.

Wrongtoy

Apr 20 2025, 1:21 PM

That whole lead paragraph is designed to lull the reader into thinking he was “only the second or third” best on a team “third or fourth best” in a conference that was maybe “sixth or seventh best.” It is a deliberate style to lull the reader into thinking it was, at best, “just participation.”

Edited Apr 20 2025, 1:21 PM by Wrongtoy.

Wrongtoy

Apr 20 2025, 1:21 PM #4

eyeswideopen

Apr 20 2025, 1:48 PM

(Apr 20 2025, 11:15 AM)MenacinglyLavender While I have issues with a lot of framings in the article, I do think it will be helpful in the overall “fight” over women’s sports. It takes a lot of knowledge that was only known by people that deeply follow this issue (aka us), and synthesizes it for the masses. While it won’t change the minds of any “true believers”, I do think it has the best chance of getting through the “TWAW…but have questions” crowd

The fact that he stole one of the few female sports scholarships that exist for volleyball really grinds my gears. Hopefully it will wake some people up.

eyeswideopen

Apr 20 2025, 1:48 PM #5

(Apr 20 2025, 11:15 AM)MenacinglyLavender While I have issues with a lot of framings in the article, I do think it will be helpful in the overall “fight” over women’s sports. It takes a lot of knowledge that was only known by people that deeply follow this issue (aka us), and synthesizes it for the masses. While it won’t change the minds of any “true believers”, I do think it has the best chance of getting through the “TWAW…but have questions” crowd

The fact that he stole one of the few female sports scholarships that exist for volleyball really grinds my gears. Hopefully it will wake some people up.

Iota Aurigae

Apr 20 2025, 3:32 PM

Every time someone says “but there are so few it doesn’t matter!!”, I tell them, “there are so few athletes taking performance enhancing drugs, why do you care?”

Iota Aurigae

Apr 20 2025, 3:32 PM #6

Every time someone says “but there are so few it doesn’t matter!!”, I tell them, “there are so few athletes taking performance enhancing drugs, why do you care?”

Wrongtoy

Apr 21 2025, 12:33 AM

Every season, there are 5-10 nfl athletes that test positive for performance enhancing drugs being detected. They are usually suspended. But yet we are expected to tolerate guys who say they’re women who have artificially reduced their testosterone to like 1000 ti,es that of an actual female.

Wrongtoy

Apr 21 2025, 12:33 AM #7

MenacinglyLavender
Fesbian Leminist🪻

Apr 21 2025, 7:43 AM

(Apr 20 2025, 1:48 PM)eyeswideopen
(Apr 20 2025, 11:15 AM)MenacinglyLavender While I have issues with a lot of framings in the article, I do think it will be helpful in the overall “fight” over women’s sports. It takes a lot of knowledge that was only known by people that deeply follow this issue (aka us), and synthesizes it for the masses. While it won’t change the minds of any “true believers”, I do think it has the best chance of getting through the “TWAW…but have questions” crowd

The fact that he stole one of the few female sports scholarships that exist for volleyball really grinds my gears. Hopefully it will wake some people up.

Yeah, I really appreciated that the top “Reader Picked” comment addresses just that:

Quote:I support Blaire’s right to live life without any discrimination and with all the love life has to offer. But Blaire took a scholarship to college that was intended for a female athlete. That’s patently unfair. This article rightly cites that the overwhelming majority of people disapprove of trans athletes competing with and against girls and women (and taking scholarships meant for women) and yet it’s written with heavy handed and condescending bias in favor of allowing it.

Edited Apr 21 2025, 7:43 AM by MenacinglyLavender.

MenacinglyLavender

Fesbian Leminist🪻

Apr 21 2025, 7:43 AM #8

(Apr 20 2025, 1:48 PM)eyeswideopen
(Apr 20 2025, 11:15 AM)MenacinglyLavender While I have issues with a lot of framings in the article, I do think it will be helpful in the overall “fight” over women’s sports. It takes a lot of knowledge that was only known by people that deeply follow this issue (aka us), and synthesizes it for the masses. While it won’t change the minds of any “true believers”, I do think it has the best chance of getting through the “TWAW…but have questions” crowd

The fact that he stole one of the few female sports scholarships that exist for volleyball really grinds my gears. Hopefully it will wake some people up.

Yeah, I really appreciated that the top “Reader Picked” comment addresses just that:

Quote:I support Blaire’s right to live life without any discrimination and with all the love life has to offer. But Blaire took a scholarship to college that was intended for a female athlete. That’s patently unfair. This article rightly cites that the overwhelming majority of people disapprove of trans athletes competing with and against girls and women (and taking scholarships meant for women) and yet it’s written with heavy handed and condescending bias in favor of allowing it.

Wrongtoy

Apr 21 2025, 5:38 PM

(Apr 21 2025, 7:43 AM)MenacinglyLavender
(Apr 20 2025, 1:48 PM)eyeswideopen
(Apr 20 2025, 11:15 AM)MenacinglyLavender While I have issues with a lot of framings in the article, I do think it will be helpful in the overall “fight” over women’s sports. It takes a lot of knowledge that was only known by people that deeply follow this issue (aka us), and synthesizes it for the masses. While it won’t change the minds of any “true believers”, I do think it has the best chance of getting through the “TWAW…but have questions” crowd

The fact that he stole one of the few female sports scholarships that exist for volleyball really grinds my gears. Hopefully it will wake some people up.

Yeah, I really appreciated that the top “Reader Picked” comment addresses just that:

Quote:I support Blaire’s right to live life without any discrimination and with all the love life has to offer. But Blaire took a scholarship to college that was intended for a female athlete. That’s patently unfair. This article rightly cites that the overwhelming majority of people disapprove of trans athletes competing with and against girls and women (and taking scholarships meant for women) and yet it’s written with heavy handed and condescending bias in favor of allowing it.

Ok, and we can explore what discrimination means in this context.

SCOTUS ruled that Aimee Stephens could not be fired for wearing female dress code or for changing his name to Aimee. The court did not weigh in as to whether Aimee needed to be referred to as a she or whether he could now use the women’s.

Whereas in California, a court ruled that a prosecutor trying a case of piv rape in a California state prison could not refer the defendant as any pronoun outside of she/her, despite said defendant having been moved back to men’s jail after this and impregnating an additional female. Because, apparently, calling them a they isn’t even enough. It’s she if you use a pronoun.

Wrongtoy

Apr 21 2025, 5:38 PM #9

(Apr 21 2025, 7:43 AM)MenacinglyLavender
(Apr 20 2025, 1:48 PM)eyeswideopen
(Apr 20 2025, 11:15 AM)MenacinglyLavender While I have issues with a lot of framings in the article, I do think it will be helpful in the overall “fight” over women’s sports. It takes a lot of knowledge that was only known by people that deeply follow this issue (aka us), and synthesizes it for the masses. While it won’t change the minds of any “true believers”, I do think it has the best chance of getting through the “TWAW…but have questions” crowd

The fact that he stole one of the few female sports scholarships that exist for volleyball really grinds my gears. Hopefully it will wake some people up.

Yeah, I really appreciated that the top “Reader Picked” comment addresses just that:

Quote:I support Blaire’s right to live life without any discrimination and with all the love life has to offer. But Blaire took a scholarship to college that was intended for a female athlete. That’s patently unfair. This article rightly cites that the overwhelming majority of people disapprove of trans athletes competing with and against girls and women (and taking scholarships meant for women) and yet it’s written with heavy handed and condescending bias in favor of allowing it.

Ok, and we can explore what discrimination means in this context.

SCOTUS ruled that Aimee Stephens could not be fired for wearing female dress code or for changing his name to Aimee. The court did not weigh in as to whether Aimee needed to be referred to as a she or whether he could now use the women’s.

Whereas in California, a court ruled that a prosecutor trying a case of piv rape in a California state prison could not refer the defendant as any pronoun outside of she/her, despite said defendant having been moved back to men’s jail after this and impregnating an additional female. Because, apparently, calling them a they isn’t even enough. It’s she if you use a pronoun.

Print Thread

Recently Browsing
1 Guest(s)