clovenhooves The Personal Is Political Beauty Culture Why foregoing femininity is so difficult

Why foregoing femininity is so difficult

Why foregoing femininity is so difficult

 
Dec 27 2024, 4:42 PM
#1
I was debating posting this in the Gender Nonconformity forum, but maybe it's more appropriate here?

I feel like with a lot of women who forego some trappings of femininity, the problem arises because they still remain somewhat feminine, and this ends up with them feeling essentially like failed women. Like, they still compare themselves with the feminine ideal, except not as extreme. And this results in negative self-perception where the original ideal is still a perfectly feminine woman that they're just moving further away from.

I've been thinking about why this has never been the case for me. All my life I've wanted to look masculine, so it did not feel odd to never shave, or to never wear makeup. It felt completely liberating to buy in the men's section and to cut my hair short. Because my role model was the form of presentation that's expected of men, foregoing parts of femininity felt obvious, and in fact combining the two would've felt weird. In that way I signaled that I do not in any way wish to have any feminine standards applied on me.

I think the reason why rejecting femininity feels so scary to women is because they don't feel like they have any alternative. They can either move between being invisible, or being on the lower end of the ugly-pretty scale of femininity. An alternative to that is seen as nothing, like a lack of identity. And being, say, a somewhat feminine woman who doesn't shave her legs seems to create this image of a woman who just can't do femininity right, rather than an alternative to the conventional ideal. One might say that an alternative, more realistic ideal should be popularised, but because femininity is a mode of presentation whose centuries of existence have only ever served to further ideas of female attractiveness in a patriarchal society, it doesn't feel possible to rehabilitate it.

What are your thoughts on this?

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing
YesYourNigel
Dec 27 2024, 4:42 PM #1

I was debating posting this in the Gender Nonconformity forum, but maybe it's more appropriate here?

I feel like with a lot of women who forego some trappings of femininity, the problem arises because they still remain somewhat feminine, and this ends up with them feeling essentially like failed women. Like, they still compare themselves with the feminine ideal, except not as extreme. And this results in negative self-perception where the original ideal is still a perfectly feminine woman that they're just moving further away from.

I've been thinking about why this has never been the case for me. All my life I've wanted to look masculine, so it did not feel odd to never shave, or to never wear makeup. It felt completely liberating to buy in the men's section and to cut my hair short. Because my role model was the form of presentation that's expected of men, foregoing parts of femininity felt obvious, and in fact combining the two would've felt weird. In that way I signaled that I do not in any way wish to have any feminine standards applied on me.

I think the reason why rejecting femininity feels so scary to women is because they don't feel like they have any alternative. They can either move between being invisible, or being on the lower end of the ugly-pretty scale of femininity. An alternative to that is seen as nothing, like a lack of identity. And being, say, a somewhat feminine woman who doesn't shave her legs seems to create this image of a woman who just can't do femininity right, rather than an alternative to the conventional ideal. One might say that an alternative, more realistic ideal should be popularised, but because femininity is a mode of presentation whose centuries of existence have only ever served to further ideas of female attractiveness in a patriarchal society, it doesn't feel possible to rehabilitate it.

What are your thoughts on this?


I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
230
Dec 29 2024, 11:20 AM
#2
Thank you for starting this discussion! I just wanted to let you know I have thoughts I want to share, but I need to find the time to sit down and write them out. I hope someone else will chime in before I get around to it! :)
komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
Dec 29 2024, 11:20 AM #2

Thank you for starting this discussion! I just wanted to let you know I have thoughts I want to share, but I need to find the time to sit down and write them out. I hope someone else will chime in before I get around to it! :)

Clover
Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐
651
Dec 29 2024, 4:29 PM
#3
YesYourNigel I feel like with a lot of women who forego some trappings of femininity, the problem arises because they still remain somewhat feminine, and this ends up with them feeling essentially like failed women. Like, they still compare themselves with the feminine ideal, except not as extreme. And this results in negative self-perception where the original ideal is still a perfectly feminine woman that they're just moving further away from.
That's an interesting perspective. To me, learning about radical feminism, gender criticism, and gender abolition felt freeing. Gender is a made-up stupid oppressive regressive social expectation and I don't need to put up with that. Tbh, I think the only difference between myself and a "nonbinary/agender" person is just that I don't support transgenderism and therefore have no need to purport a sexist belief system. Why do that when I can simply just be an adult female human who dresses/acts however she likes and has whatever interests and hobbies she wants to? There should be nothing "special" about such a concept, but a gender-conforming society makes it feel like it's something irreverent.

I realize that the "perfectly feminine woman" is a sexist patriarchal ideal that I do not need to strive towards. The benefit of learning about radical feminism is that it also gives one the unfortunate reality that women who strive towards that ideal are superficially "treated better" in a patriarchal system. That doesn't mean I have to, but that also means acknowledging I might get judged more harshly for not wearing makeup to job interviews, I might cause feelings of "disgust" in people or people might think I'm "mentally ill" because I don't shave my body hair. Radical acceptance is an important skill to have, along with recognizing the locus of control, when being gender non-conforming.

YesYourNigel I think the reason why rejecting femininity feels so scary to women is because they don't feel like they have any alternative. They can either move between being invisible, or being on the lower end of the ugly-pretty scale of femininity. An alternative to that is seen as nothing, like a lack of identity.
That's a good point. And I wonder if that's why so many girls and women are nowadays more likely to identify as trans than just be gender nonconforming—the lack of an "identity."

I think therein lies "scary" part for many women on foregoing femininity—you are "on your own" in some way. You don't get the comforts of "on Wednesdays we wear pink girl cliques" and stuff. You don't get to bond over lamenting over the plights of femininity as many women do ("ugh shaving sucks amirite/omg smooth legs in bed amirite", makeup "tips", blah blah). You get shit on for not following it—from society, men (whose opinion matters more in a patriarchal society) and women who think you're "weird". Apparently there is now a trend of gender-conforming women making fun of gender nonconforming women by calling them "NLOGs (not like other girls)". Scrambling to be "top dog" in the stupid "femininity hierarchy". Crabs in a bucket mentality. Social ostracism and shaming. It wasn't that long ago that "not wearing makeup" was a sign in a psychiatric ward that a woman was "not mentally well." I'm sure that nowadays it is still common for women who normally wear makeup to get "are you sick?" on the one day they don't wear makeup. What a way society encourages them to not conform, huh?

I think the most important part is just being willing to say "fuck it" and eschew femininity. But this can be hard. To not conform as a social creature, even when we know the conformity of our society is toxic. How many people stay in toxic relationships with friends, partners, and family, because losing social bonds feels worse than being free of toxicity? Tie that into the fact a key part of femininity is "submission", to willingly not submit by forgoing femininity in any form can be quite daunting to some women.

Kozlik's regular member account. 🍀🐐
Clover
Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐
Dec 29 2024, 4:29 PM #3

YesYourNigel I feel like with a lot of women who forego some trappings of femininity, the problem arises because they still remain somewhat feminine, and this ends up with them feeling essentially like failed women. Like, they still compare themselves with the feminine ideal, except not as extreme. And this results in negative self-perception where the original ideal is still a perfectly feminine woman that they're just moving further away from.
That's an interesting perspective. To me, learning about radical feminism, gender criticism, and gender abolition felt freeing. Gender is a made-up stupid oppressive regressive social expectation and I don't need to put up with that. Tbh, I think the only difference between myself and a "nonbinary/agender" person is just that I don't support transgenderism and therefore have no need to purport a sexist belief system. Why do that when I can simply just be an adult female human who dresses/acts however she likes and has whatever interests and hobbies she wants to? There should be nothing "special" about such a concept, but a gender-conforming society makes it feel like it's something irreverent.

I realize that the "perfectly feminine woman" is a sexist patriarchal ideal that I do not need to strive towards. The benefit of learning about radical feminism is that it also gives one the unfortunate reality that women who strive towards that ideal are superficially "treated better" in a patriarchal system. That doesn't mean I have to, but that also means acknowledging I might get judged more harshly for not wearing makeup to job interviews, I might cause feelings of "disgust" in people or people might think I'm "mentally ill" because I don't shave my body hair. Radical acceptance is an important skill to have, along with recognizing the locus of control, when being gender non-conforming.

YesYourNigel I think the reason why rejecting femininity feels so scary to women is because they don't feel like they have any alternative. They can either move between being invisible, or being on the lower end of the ugly-pretty scale of femininity. An alternative to that is seen as nothing, like a lack of identity.
That's a good point. And I wonder if that's why so many girls and women are nowadays more likely to identify as trans than just be gender nonconforming—the lack of an "identity."

I think therein lies "scary" part for many women on foregoing femininity—you are "on your own" in some way. You don't get the comforts of "on Wednesdays we wear pink girl cliques" and stuff. You don't get to bond over lamenting over the plights of femininity as many women do ("ugh shaving sucks amirite/omg smooth legs in bed amirite", makeup "tips", blah blah). You get shit on for not following it—from society, men (whose opinion matters more in a patriarchal society) and women who think you're "weird". Apparently there is now a trend of gender-conforming women making fun of gender nonconforming women by calling them "NLOGs (not like other girls)". Scrambling to be "top dog" in the stupid "femininity hierarchy". Crabs in a bucket mentality. Social ostracism and shaming. It wasn't that long ago that "not wearing makeup" was a sign in a psychiatric ward that a woman was "not mentally well." I'm sure that nowadays it is still common for women who normally wear makeup to get "are you sick?" on the one day they don't wear makeup. What a way society encourages them to not conform, huh?

I think the most important part is just being willing to say "fuck it" and eschew femininity. But this can be hard. To not conform as a social creature, even when we know the conformity of our society is toxic. How many people stay in toxic relationships with friends, partners, and family, because losing social bonds feels worse than being free of toxicity? Tie that into the fact a key part of femininity is "submission", to willingly not submit by forgoing femininity in any form can be quite daunting to some women.


Kozlik's regular member account. 🍀🐐

komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
230
Dec 30 2024, 5:07 PM
#4
Finally had some time to sit down and write a response! Clover got there first and said a lot of what I wanted to say, though 🫡 thanks girl LOL

On the subject of women struggling to forgo femininity, I try my best to have empathy for them. I'm much like you, YYN; for most of my life, and even before I knew a thing about gender or feminism, I've preferred a more "traditionally masculine" style and presentation. My mom likes to tell the story of how when I was in kindergarten, all the girls were supposed to wear dresses for our class photo, but I apparently threw an absolute fit over the idea of wearing a skirt, so she found me a pair of baggy girls' sailor shorts that sort of looked like a skirt if you squinted and I was allowed to wear that instead 🤣

But I don't believe that preference was "natural," except perhaps in the sense that it's more natural to prefer clothes that are comfortable and functional. It's hard to know what I was really thinking as a kindergartner, but even then I think I had already absorbed messages about what women were supposed to be - small, dainty, pretty, quiet... Objects to be seen and not heard. And I rejected that idea with all my might, which most likely influenced me to avoid skirts, pink, makeup, princesses, and other such "traditionally feminine" interests for young girls.

Of course, the flip side of this is not that women should just accept "traditionally feminine" interests, unless they are special NLOG tomboy rebels. The actual flip side of this is that all women absorb those same messages about what women are supposed to be, and it's quite normal for most people, not just women, to want to be accepted by society - to belong - to do what is expected of them. Gender nonconformity is very freeing, and I enjoy it very much, but that doesn't touch on the parts of it that make life harder socially. I'm not saying that conforming confers privileges; far from it. Rather, not conforming leads to censure, which is uncomfortable, and which many people find quite intolerable. You have to reach a certain level of not giving a fuck to live proudly and happily GNC, and I don't know that most people ever get there.

(Side note: this is a totally separate ramble, but I think this is why so many modern transgender people are so miserable. They give way too much of a fuck to be able to live happily as someone who is visibly "different.")
komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
Dec 30 2024, 5:07 PM #4

Finally had some time to sit down and write a response! Clover got there first and said a lot of what I wanted to say, though 🫡 thanks girl LOL

On the subject of women struggling to forgo femininity, I try my best to have empathy for them. I'm much like you, YYN; for most of my life, and even before I knew a thing about gender or feminism, I've preferred a more "traditionally masculine" style and presentation. My mom likes to tell the story of how when I was in kindergarten, all the girls were supposed to wear dresses for our class photo, but I apparently threw an absolute fit over the idea of wearing a skirt, so she found me a pair of baggy girls' sailor shorts that sort of looked like a skirt if you squinted and I was allowed to wear that instead 🤣

But I don't believe that preference was "natural," except perhaps in the sense that it's more natural to prefer clothes that are comfortable and functional. It's hard to know what I was really thinking as a kindergartner, but even then I think I had already absorbed messages about what women were supposed to be - small, dainty, pretty, quiet... Objects to be seen and not heard. And I rejected that idea with all my might, which most likely influenced me to avoid skirts, pink, makeup, princesses, and other such "traditionally feminine" interests for young girls.

Of course, the flip side of this is not that women should just accept "traditionally feminine" interests, unless they are special NLOG tomboy rebels. The actual flip side of this is that all women absorb those same messages about what women are supposed to be, and it's quite normal for most people, not just women, to want to be accepted by society - to belong - to do what is expected of them. Gender nonconformity is very freeing, and I enjoy it very much, but that doesn't touch on the parts of it that make life harder socially. I'm not saying that conforming confers privileges; far from it. Rather, not conforming leads to censure, which is uncomfortable, and which many people find quite intolerable. You have to reach a certain level of not giving a fuck to live proudly and happily GNC, and I don't know that most people ever get there.

(Side note: this is a totally separate ramble, but I think this is why so many modern transgender people are so miserable. They give way too much of a fuck to be able to live happily as someone who is visibly "different.")

Feb 16 2025, 11:00 AM
#5
Sorry it took me a while to get back to this, I have a lot of thoughts that took a long time to word, and I really want to discuss this more.
(Dec 29 2024, 4:29 PM)Clover To me, learning about radical feminism, gender criticism, and gender abolition felt freeing. Gender is a made-up stupid oppressive regressive social expectation and I don't need to put up with that
I think it's freeing on an ideological level, as in, you can finally cut the crap and acknowledge the reality that society keeps gaslighting you from and sugarcoating - male misogyny is a feature, not a fluke, and it's bad, bad, bad, it's evil, it hurts and traumatises women on a massive scale. But the extent of it is terrifying, and defeating, and makes you latch onto any bit of hope for normalcy. As you quoted here.

Quote:The benefit of learning about radical feminism is that it also gives one the unfortunate reality that women who strive towards that ideal are superficially "treated better" in a patriarchal system.

I really hate how often this gets used to divide women, where feminine and masculine women go at each other's throats over who's more "privileged" within the patriarchal system. Women cannot be privileged under patriarchy! Just because femininity is encouraged and celebrated doesn't erase the real harm caused by it to women as individuals and as a class. Lose-lose situations for women are the whole point of patriarchy, which is why you can't "win" at it, no matter how nice you play with it.

Quote:I think therein lies "scary" part for many women on foregoing femininity—you are "on your own" in some way

Yes, and liberal feminism extends so much time and effort to worship sexualised feminine women and drag queens as empowering, and just side-eyes women who don't conform as "those extreme militant feminists" or as suffering from internalised misogyny. They basically think non-feminine women are getting in the way of rehabilitating feminism's image as being made up of ugly hairy lesbians who can't land a man.

Quote:You don't get to bond over lamenting over the plights of femininity as many women do ("ugh shaving sucks amirite/omg smooth legs in bed amirite", makeup "tips", blah blah). You get shit on for not following it—from society, men (whose opinion matters more in a patriarchal society) and women who think you're "weird".
It gets difficult explaining to these women that this stuff is bad - they don't listen and will insist that this is their "choice" because they "like how they look" and it "makes them feel better" - yeah no shit. That's the entire point! It's easy to feel like you're somehow fundamentally different (in a tomboyish way...a male way...? A boysoul way, mayhaps? 🙃) for not getting any of it when almost all women insist til they're blue in the face that femininity is an integral, fundamental part of their life and identity, and liberal feminism treats is as practically genocide to criticise and discourage women from it.

Quote:Apparently there is now a trend of gender-conforming women making fun of gender nonconforming women by calling them "NLOGs (not like other girls)". Scrambling to be "top dog" in the stupid "femininity hierarchy". Crabs in a bucket mentality
Ugh the thing is, a lot of gender-nonconforming women ARE NotLikeOtherGirls, where the rejection is often based not in any dignity and humanity for women, but in arbitrary glorification of anything associated with men and trying to distance oneself from women to prove you're One Of The Boys and not an inferior like fellow women are (this was me, hello 🙃).

The thing is, the instinct of these women is right in the sense of reconising how damaging and degrading femininity is, but because they lack (and desperately reject for the sake of pandering to men who they're trying to fit in with) any feminist consciousness, their conclusion isn't "femininity bad because it hurts women", it's "femininity bad because women=femininity, ergo women bad, me special, me get special treatment as OneOfTheBoys and not bad woman.". And feminine women further pushing for and centering femininity and treating it as not only a given, but somehow empowering and integral to womanhood only reaffirms to non-feminine women that they're fundamentally different and don't have a place in the wider female culture.

Speaking of, there is a tendency in liberal feminism to treat femininity as some kind of unique female culture that's been oppressed by the patriarchy like some other cultures. So gender conforming women from all parts of the political spectrum feel defensive over it and the libfems don't realise that their confidence in femininity is reinforced by the patriarchal backing and sense of normalcy. They think that pandering to the different half of Madonna-wh*re complex is somehow scamming the patriarchal system, unlike other "bad women" who deserve derision for being on the opposing side of the complex.

I think men and gnc women recognise that so many parts of femininity are intentionally made to turn you into an obedient, male-pandering doormat. So the insistance that high heels, makeup and tight uncomfortable clothing is practical and comfy sounds insane unless you've been brainwashed into thinking this is your only option and the best you can get. And from that, it's easy to conclude there's something fundamentally different about you compared to the other women, something more male-like, because men don't buy into this shit.

Quote:I think the most important part is just being willing to say "fuck it" and eschew femininity. But this can be hard. To not conform as a social creature, even when we know the conformity of our society is toxic.

We are all looking for our place in society. We want to somehow fit in, we want to be accepted and have some place in the world. Like, I get why trans people get attracted to the idea of transitioning, and I get why feminine women want to feel "normal", but it's just not healthy, it's actively harmful to you and to other women.

I think if you're only associating with and accomplishing femininity part-way, it feels like a failing. When it's clear the basis for one's presentation is a conventionally attractive feminine woman, it will look incongruous to, say, wear makeup but also not shave your legs. You're still associating with the popular, societal image of a woman, but not to the fullest. I think the key might be to completely change what you're trying to go for and distance yourself as much as you can from the image of femininity.

I actually never shaved my legs because I look "butch" - because the image I strive for is a more typical "masculine" standard, it'd look incongruous to put makeup on that, or shave my legs. I think that's what makes gender nonconformity significantly easier - completely changing your ideal when it comes to appearance, where there isn't as much of a disconnect, because people's association will fall more onto the familiar "whole package" of masculine presentation, rather going a step further and partway combining it with feminine presentation. But for that to work, you can't do it partway. I think there's a lot to debate though when it comes to how effective imitating the masculine standard can be.
Edited Feb 16 2025, 11:31 AM by YesYourNigel.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing
YesYourNigel
Feb 16 2025, 11:00 AM #5

Sorry it took me a while to get back to this, I have a lot of thoughts that took a long time to word, and I really want to discuss this more.

(Dec 29 2024, 4:29 PM)Clover To me, learning about radical feminism, gender criticism, and gender abolition felt freeing. Gender is a made-up stupid oppressive regressive social expectation and I don't need to put up with that
I think it's freeing on an ideological level, as in, you can finally cut the crap and acknowledge the reality that society keeps gaslighting you from and sugarcoating - male misogyny is a feature, not a fluke, and it's bad, bad, bad, it's evil, it hurts and traumatises women on a massive scale. But the extent of it is terrifying, and defeating, and makes you latch onto any bit of hope for normalcy. As you quoted here.

Quote:The benefit of learning about radical feminism is that it also gives one the unfortunate reality that women who strive towards that ideal are superficially "treated better" in a patriarchal system.

I really hate how often this gets used to divide women, where feminine and masculine women go at each other's throats over who's more "privileged" within the patriarchal system. Women cannot be privileged under patriarchy! Just because femininity is encouraged and celebrated doesn't erase the real harm caused by it to women as individuals and as a class. Lose-lose situations for women are the whole point of patriarchy, which is why you can't "win" at it, no matter how nice you play with it.

Quote:I think therein lies "scary" part for many women on foregoing femininity—you are "on your own" in some way

Yes, and liberal feminism extends so much time and effort to worship sexualised feminine women and drag queens as empowering, and just side-eyes women who don't conform as "those extreme militant feminists" or as suffering from internalised misogyny. They basically think non-feminine women are getting in the way of rehabilitating feminism's image as being made up of ugly hairy lesbians who can't land a man.

Quote:You don't get to bond over lamenting over the plights of femininity as many women do ("ugh shaving sucks amirite/omg smooth legs in bed amirite", makeup "tips", blah blah). You get shit on for not following it—from society, men (whose opinion matters more in a patriarchal society) and women who think you're "weird".
It gets difficult explaining to these women that this stuff is bad - they don't listen and will insist that this is their "choice" because they "like how they look" and it "makes them feel better" - yeah no shit. That's the entire point! It's easy to feel like you're somehow fundamentally different (in a tomboyish way...a male way...? A boysoul way, mayhaps? 🙃) for not getting any of it when almost all women insist til they're blue in the face that femininity is an integral, fundamental part of their life and identity, and liberal feminism treats is as practically genocide to criticise and discourage women from it.

Quote:Apparently there is now a trend of gender-conforming women making fun of gender nonconforming women by calling them "NLOGs (not like other girls)". Scrambling to be "top dog" in the stupid "femininity hierarchy". Crabs in a bucket mentality
Ugh the thing is, a lot of gender-nonconforming women ARE NotLikeOtherGirls, where the rejection is often based not in any dignity and humanity for women, but in arbitrary glorification of anything associated with men and trying to distance oneself from women to prove you're One Of The Boys and not an inferior like fellow women are (this was me, hello 🙃).

The thing is, the instinct of these women is right in the sense of reconising how damaging and degrading femininity is, but because they lack (and desperately reject for the sake of pandering to men who they're trying to fit in with) any feminist consciousness, their conclusion isn't "femininity bad because it hurts women", it's "femininity bad because women=femininity, ergo women bad, me special, me get special treatment as OneOfTheBoys and not bad woman.". And feminine women further pushing for and centering femininity and treating it as not only a given, but somehow empowering and integral to womanhood only reaffirms to non-feminine women that they're fundamentally different and don't have a place in the wider female culture.

Speaking of, there is a tendency in liberal feminism to treat femininity as some kind of unique female culture that's been oppressed by the patriarchy like some other cultures. So gender conforming women from all parts of the political spectrum feel defensive over it and the libfems don't realise that their confidence in femininity is reinforced by the patriarchal backing and sense of normalcy. They think that pandering to the different half of Madonna-wh*re complex is somehow scamming the patriarchal system, unlike other "bad women" who deserve derision for being on the opposing side of the complex.

I think men and gnc women recognise that so many parts of femininity are intentionally made to turn you into an obedient, male-pandering doormat. So the insistance that high heels, makeup and tight uncomfortable clothing is practical and comfy sounds insane unless you've been brainwashed into thinking this is your only option and the best you can get. And from that, it's easy to conclude there's something fundamentally different about you compared to the other women, something more male-like, because men don't buy into this shit.

Quote:I think the most important part is just being willing to say "fuck it" and eschew femininity. But this can be hard. To not conform as a social creature, even when we know the conformity of our society is toxic.

We are all looking for our place in society. We want to somehow fit in, we want to be accepted and have some place in the world. Like, I get why trans people get attracted to the idea of transitioning, and I get why feminine women want to feel "normal", but it's just not healthy, it's actively harmful to you and to other women.

I think if you're only associating with and accomplishing femininity part-way, it feels like a failing. When it's clear the basis for one's presentation is a conventionally attractive feminine woman, it will look incongruous to, say, wear makeup but also not shave your legs. You're still associating with the popular, societal image of a woman, but not to the fullest. I think the key might be to completely change what you're trying to go for and distance yourself as much as you can from the image of femininity.

I actually never shaved my legs because I look "butch" - because the image I strive for is a more typical "masculine" standard, it'd look incongruous to put makeup on that, or shave my legs. I think that's what makes gender nonconformity significantly easier - completely changing your ideal when it comes to appearance, where there isn't as much of a disconnect, because people's association will fall more onto the familiar "whole package" of masculine presentation, rather going a step further and partway combining it with feminine presentation. But for that to work, you can't do it partway. I think there's a lot to debate though when it comes to how effective imitating the masculine standard can be.


I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

Feb 16 2025, 11:30 AM
#6
(Dec 30 2024, 5:07 PM)komorebi But I don't believe that preference was "natural," except perhaps in the sense that it's more natural to prefer clothes that are comfortable and functional.
Yeah, that's definitely a part of it, just basic recognition that femininity is demeaning and impractical, before you get worn down into taking it on to make up for the fact that you're an ugly troll. Femininity is really blatantly a way to paint a target on women and to polish their sex object status for male consumption. On the other hand, not everything associated with men is good either, least of all misogyny, hence the cringe NLOGs trying to look cool by parroting whatever offensive degrading crap men spew out.

I really do hate this focus on what is natural and what is genuine etc. To me the only thing that matters is whether this is good or healthy for women. If it means going against your entire sense of patriarchal self-worth to break your chains - DO IT!

That's why I despise liberalism - it's completely focused on enabling people's adherence and attraction to the lowest-commmon-denominator norms because they "like it" and it's "who they are", and then portrays any criticism of it as almost a genocidal attack, because demanding change is impossible because we're all unique and special and set in stone and should just follow our hearts. 🌈🌺

Quote:Of course, the flip side of this is not that women should just accept "traditionally feminine" interests, unless they are special NLOG tomboy rebels.

Yes, it's so infuriating how there's this false dichotomy where a girl will either think anything associated with being female is automatically bad and escape it by glorifying anything associated with boys, or learn that women aren't inferior and then...takes on bullshit societal presentation forcefully associated with women that has nothing to do with actually biologically being a woman! AAARGH!

See also like 90% of detransitioners. You'd think learning that gender is bullshit would make them more weary of how their sense of appearance is manipulated for patriarchal gain, but nope. Still fixated on how to achieve gender roles, I guess to gain that same sense of normalcy under the patriarchy that they were chasing with transitioning, too. It's sad.

Quote:Gender nonconformity is very freeing, and I enjoy it very much, but that doesn't touch on the parts of it that make life harder socially.
Yeah, it feels like you're excluded from both male society for being a woman, and also from female society for not being feminine. It can be isolating.

Quote:I'm not saying that conforming confers privileges; far from it. Rather, not conforming leads to censure, which is uncomfortable, and which many people find quite intolerable.
Yes! The way that gender nonconforming women get erased and ignored even in supposedly feminist communities just for the sake of not making gender conforming women feel uncomfortable sucks! Even when you're not openly attacked, you're just treated as a spinster basically, an anonymous weirdo. It's a trap that many gnc women and TIFs fall into where they think avoiding femininity necessarily makes them more respectable in the eyes of men, when really it just makes them placed into the Unfuckable pile. You still don't get the authority that men are given, but these women think they are just because they're not as overtly and extremely despised as feminine women.

Quote:You have to reach a certain level of not giving a fuck to live proudly and happily GNC, and I don't know that most people ever get there.
Yes, which brings me to the point where I think a lot of women would benefit from trying to imitate the appeal of some socially acceptable masculine ideas, like being butch. I think that could be a way to move beyond just a neutral, scared sort of gender nonconformity into proud nonconformity, but one that still feels familiar to people based on the association with a certain image or attitude. Men have a much wider selection of them to choose from because their entire presentation isn't meant to prioritise sexiness and looking non-threatening first and foremost.

So rather than defining a rejection of gender roles as merely not being feminine and defaulting to a sort of drab unisex presentation, I think there could be value in achieving a more emphasised personality-based look where one shows confidence in their gnc presentation, rather than just a lack of femininity.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing
YesYourNigel
Feb 16 2025, 11:30 AM #6

(Dec 30 2024, 5:07 PM)komorebi But I don't believe that preference was "natural," except perhaps in the sense that it's more natural to prefer clothes that are comfortable and functional.
Yeah, that's definitely a part of it, just basic recognition that femininity is demeaning and impractical, before you get worn down into taking it on to make up for the fact that you're an ugly troll. Femininity is really blatantly a way to paint a target on women and to polish their sex object status for male consumption. On the other hand, not everything associated with men is good either, least of all misogyny, hence the cringe NLOGs trying to look cool by parroting whatever offensive degrading crap men spew out.

I really do hate this focus on what is natural and what is genuine etc. To me the only thing that matters is whether this is good or healthy for women. If it means going against your entire sense of patriarchal self-worth to break your chains - DO IT!

That's why I despise liberalism - it's completely focused on enabling people's adherence and attraction to the lowest-commmon-denominator norms because they "like it" and it's "who they are", and then portrays any criticism of it as almost a genocidal attack, because demanding change is impossible because we're all unique and special and set in stone and should just follow our hearts. 🌈🌺

Quote:Of course, the flip side of this is not that women should just accept "traditionally feminine" interests, unless they are special NLOG tomboy rebels.

Yes, it's so infuriating how there's this false dichotomy where a girl will either think anything associated with being female is automatically bad and escape it by glorifying anything associated with boys, or learn that women aren't inferior and then...takes on bullshit societal presentation forcefully associated with women that has nothing to do with actually biologically being a woman! AAARGH!

See also like 90% of detransitioners. You'd think learning that gender is bullshit would make them more weary of how their sense of appearance is manipulated for patriarchal gain, but nope. Still fixated on how to achieve gender roles, I guess to gain that same sense of normalcy under the patriarchy that they were chasing with transitioning, too. It's sad.

Quote:Gender nonconformity is very freeing, and I enjoy it very much, but that doesn't touch on the parts of it that make life harder socially.
Yeah, it feels like you're excluded from both male society for being a woman, and also from female society for not being feminine. It can be isolating.

Quote:I'm not saying that conforming confers privileges; far from it. Rather, not conforming leads to censure, which is uncomfortable, and which many people find quite intolerable.
Yes! The way that gender nonconforming women get erased and ignored even in supposedly feminist communities just for the sake of not making gender conforming women feel uncomfortable sucks! Even when you're not openly attacked, you're just treated as a spinster basically, an anonymous weirdo. It's a trap that many gnc women and TIFs fall into where they think avoiding femininity necessarily makes them more respectable in the eyes of men, when really it just makes them placed into the Unfuckable pile. You still don't get the authority that men are given, but these women think they are just because they're not as overtly and extremely despised as feminine women.

Quote:You have to reach a certain level of not giving a fuck to live proudly and happily GNC, and I don't know that most people ever get there.
Yes, which brings me to the point where I think a lot of women would benefit from trying to imitate the appeal of some socially acceptable masculine ideas, like being butch. I think that could be a way to move beyond just a neutral, scared sort of gender nonconformity into proud nonconformity, but one that still feels familiar to people based on the association with a certain image or attitude. Men have a much wider selection of them to choose from because their entire presentation isn't meant to prioritise sexiness and looking non-threatening first and foremost.

So rather than defining a rejection of gender roles as merely not being feminine and defaulting to a sort of drab unisex presentation, I think there could be value in achieving a more emphasised personality-based look where one shows confidence in their gnc presentation, rather than just a lack of femininity.


I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

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