Why foregoing femininity is so difficult
Why foregoing femininity is so difficult
I feel like with a lot of women who forego some trappings of femininity, the problem arises because they still remain somewhat feminine, and this ends up with them feeling essentially like failed women. Like, they still compare themselves with the feminine ideal, except not as extreme. And this results in negative self-perception where the original ideal is still a perfectly feminine woman that they're just moving further away from.
I've been thinking about why this has never been the case for me. All my life I've wanted to look masculine, so it did not feel odd to never shave, or to never wear makeup. It felt completely liberating to buy in the men's section and to cut my hair short. Because my role model was the form of presentation that's expected of men, foregoing parts of femininity felt obvious, and in fact combining the two would've felt weird. In that way I signaled that I do not in any way wish to have any feminine standards applied on me.
I think the reason why rejecting femininity feels so scary to women is because they don't feel like they have any alternative. They can either move between being invisible, or being on the lower end of the ugly-pretty scale of femininity. An alternative to that is seen as nothing, like a lack of identity. And being, say, a somewhat feminine woman who doesn't shave her legs seems to create this image of a woman who just can't do femininity right, rather than an alternative to the conventional ideal. One might say that an alternative, more realistic ideal should be popularised, but because femininity is a mode of presentation whose centuries of existence have only ever served to further ideas of female attractiveness in a patriarchal society, it doesn't feel possible to rehabilitate it.
What are your thoughts on this?
YesYourNigel
Dec 27 2024, 4:42 PM #1I was debating posting this in the Gender Nonconformity forum, but maybe it's more appropriate here?
I feel like with a lot of women who forego some trappings of femininity, the problem arises because they still remain somewhat feminine, and this ends up with them feeling essentially like failed women. Like, they still compare themselves with the feminine ideal, except not as extreme. And this results in negative self-perception where the original ideal is still a perfectly feminine woman that they're just moving further away from.
I've been thinking about why this has never been the case for me. All my life I've wanted to look masculine, so it did not feel odd to never shave, or to never wear makeup. It felt completely liberating to buy in the men's section and to cut my hair short. Because my role model was the form of presentation that's expected of men, foregoing parts of femininity felt obvious, and in fact combining the two would've felt weird. In that way I signaled that I do not in any way wish to have any feminine standards applied on me.
I think the reason why rejecting femininity feels so scary to women is because they don't feel like they have any alternative. They can either move between being invisible, or being on the lower end of the ugly-pretty scale of femininity. An alternative to that is seen as nothing, like a lack of identity. And being, say, a somewhat feminine woman who doesn't shave her legs seems to create this image of a woman who just can't do femininity right, rather than an alternative to the conventional ideal. One might say that an alternative, more realistic ideal should be popularised, but because femininity is a mode of presentation whose centuries of existence have only ever served to further ideas of female attractiveness in a patriarchal society, it doesn't feel possible to rehabilitate it.
What are your thoughts on this?
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
Thank you for starting this discussion! I just wanted to let you know I have thoughts I want to share, but I need to find the time to sit down and write them out. I hope someone else will chime in before I get around to it! :)
YesYourNigel I feel like with a lot of women who forego some trappings of femininity, the problem arises because they still remain somewhat feminine, and this ends up with them feeling essentially like failed women. Like, they still compare themselves with the feminine ideal, except not as extreme. And this results in negative self-perception where the original ideal is still a perfectly feminine woman that they're just moving further away from.That's an interesting perspective. To me, learning about radical feminism, gender criticism, and gender abolition felt freeing. Gender is a made-up stupid oppressive regressive social expectation and I don't need to put up with that. Tbh, I think the only difference between myself and a "nonbinary/agender" person is just that I don't support transgenderism and therefore have no need to purport a sexist belief system. Why do that when I can simply just be an adult female human who dresses/acts however she likes and has whatever interests and hobbies she wants to? There should be nothing "special" about such a concept, but a gender-conforming society makes it feel like it's something irreverent.
I realize that the "perfectly feminine woman" is a sexist patriarchal ideal that I do not need to strive towards. The benefit of learning about radical feminism is that it also gives one the unfortunate reality that women who strive towards that ideal are superficially "treated better" in a patriarchal system. That doesn't mean I have to, but that also means acknowledging I might get judged more harshly for not wearing makeup to job interviews, I might cause feelings of "disgust" in people or people might think I'm "mentally ill" because I don't shave my body hair. Radical acceptance is an important skill to have, along with recognizing the locus of control, when being gender non-conforming.
YesYourNigel I think the reason why rejecting femininity feels so scary to women is because they don't feel like they have any alternative. They can either move between being invisible, or being on the lower end of the ugly-pretty scale of femininity. An alternative to that is seen as nothing, like a lack of identity.That's a good point. And I wonder if that's why so many girls and women are nowadays more likely to identify as trans than just be gender nonconforming—the lack of an "identity."
I think therein lies "scary" part for many women on foregoing femininity—you are "on your own" in some way. You don't get the comforts of "on Wednesdays we wear pink girl cliques" and stuff. You don't get to bond over lamenting over the plights of femininity as many women do ("ugh shaving sucks amirite/omg smooth legs in bed amirite", makeup "tips", blah blah). You get shit on for not following it—from society, men (whose opinion matters more in a patriarchal society) and women who think you're "weird". Apparently there is now a trend of gender-conforming women making fun of gender nonconforming women by calling them "NLOGs (not like other girls)". Scrambling to be "top dog" in the stupid "femininity hierarchy". Crabs in a bucket mentality. Social ostracism and shaming. It wasn't that long ago that "not wearing makeup" was a sign in a psychiatric ward that a woman was "not mentally well." I'm sure that nowadays it is still common for women who normally wear makeup to get "are you sick?" on the one day they don't wear makeup. What a way society encourages them to not conform, huh?
I think the most important part is just being willing to say "fuck it" and eschew femininity. But this can be hard. To not conform as a social creature, even when we know the conformity of our society is toxic. How many people stay in toxic relationships with friends, partners, and family, because losing social bonds feels worse than being free of toxicity? Tie that into the fact a key part of femininity is "submission", to willingly not submit by forgoing femininity in any form can be quite daunting to some women.
YesYourNigel I feel like with a lot of women who forego some trappings of femininity, the problem arises because they still remain somewhat feminine, and this ends up with them feeling essentially like failed women. Like, they still compare themselves with the feminine ideal, except not as extreme. And this results in negative self-perception where the original ideal is still a perfectly feminine woman that they're just moving further away from.That's an interesting perspective. To me, learning about radical feminism, gender criticism, and gender abolition felt freeing. Gender is a made-up stupid oppressive regressive social expectation and I don't need to put up with that. Tbh, I think the only difference between myself and a "nonbinary/agender" person is just that I don't support transgenderism and therefore have no need to purport a sexist belief system. Why do that when I can simply just be an adult female human who dresses/acts however she likes and has whatever interests and hobbies she wants to? There should be nothing "special" about such a concept, but a gender-conforming society makes it feel like it's something irreverent.
I realize that the "perfectly feminine woman" is a sexist patriarchal ideal that I do not need to strive towards. The benefit of learning about radical feminism is that it also gives one the unfortunate reality that women who strive towards that ideal are superficially "treated better" in a patriarchal system. That doesn't mean I have to, but that also means acknowledging I might get judged more harshly for not wearing makeup to job interviews, I might cause feelings of "disgust" in people or people might think I'm "mentally ill" because I don't shave my body hair. Radical acceptance is an important skill to have, along with recognizing the locus of control, when being gender non-conforming.
YesYourNigel I think the reason why rejecting femininity feels so scary to women is because they don't feel like they have any alternative. They can either move between being invisible, or being on the lower end of the ugly-pretty scale of femininity. An alternative to that is seen as nothing, like a lack of identity.That's a good point. And I wonder if that's why so many girls and women are nowadays more likely to identify as trans than just be gender nonconforming—the lack of an "identity."
I think therein lies "scary" part for many women on foregoing femininity—you are "on your own" in some way. You don't get the comforts of "on Wednesdays we wear pink girl cliques" and stuff. You don't get to bond over lamenting over the plights of femininity as many women do ("ugh shaving sucks amirite/omg smooth legs in bed amirite", makeup "tips", blah blah). You get shit on for not following it—from society, men (whose opinion matters more in a patriarchal society) and women who think you're "weird". Apparently there is now a trend of gender-conforming women making fun of gender nonconforming women by calling them "NLOGs (not like other girls)". Scrambling to be "top dog" in the stupid "femininity hierarchy". Crabs in a bucket mentality. Social ostracism and shaming. It wasn't that long ago that "not wearing makeup" was a sign in a psychiatric ward that a woman was "not mentally well." I'm sure that nowadays it is still common for women who normally wear makeup to get "are you sick?" on the one day they don't wear makeup. What a way society encourages them to not conform, huh?
I think the most important part is just being willing to say "fuck it" and eschew femininity. But this can be hard. To not conform as a social creature, even when we know the conformity of our society is toxic. How many people stay in toxic relationships with friends, partners, and family, because losing social bonds feels worse than being free of toxicity? Tie that into the fact a key part of femininity is "submission", to willingly not submit by forgoing femininity in any form can be quite daunting to some women.
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
On the subject of women struggling to forgo femininity, I try my best to have empathy for them. I'm much like you, YYN; for most of my life, and even before I knew a thing about gender or feminism, I've preferred a more "traditionally masculine" style and presentation. My mom likes to tell the story of how when I was in kindergarten, all the girls were supposed to wear dresses for our class photo, but I apparently threw an absolute fit over the idea of wearing a skirt, so she found me a pair of baggy girls' sailor shorts that sort of looked like a skirt if you squinted and I was allowed to wear that instead 🤣
But I don't believe that preference was "natural," except perhaps in the sense that it's more natural to prefer clothes that are comfortable and functional. It's hard to know what I was really thinking as a kindergartner, but even then I think I had already absorbed messages about what women were supposed to be - small, dainty, pretty, quiet... Objects to be seen and not heard. And I rejected that idea with all my might, which most likely influenced me to avoid skirts, pink, makeup, princesses, and other such "traditionally feminine" interests for young girls.
Of course, the flip side of this is not that women should just accept "traditionally feminine" interests, unless they are special NLOG tomboy rebels. The actual flip side of this is that all women absorb those same messages about what women are supposed to be, and it's quite normal for most people, not just women, to want to be accepted by society - to belong - to do what is expected of them. Gender nonconformity is very freeing, and I enjoy it very much, but that doesn't touch on the parts of it that make life harder socially. I'm not saying that conforming confers privileges; far from it. Rather, not conforming leads to censure, which is uncomfortable, and which many people find quite intolerable. You have to reach a certain level of not giving a fuck to live proudly and happily GNC, and I don't know that most people ever get there.
(Side note: this is a totally separate ramble, but I think this is why so many modern transgender people are so miserable. They give way too much of a fuck to be able to live happily as someone who is visibly "different.")
Finally had some time to sit down and write a response! Clover got there first and said a lot of what I wanted to say, though 🫡 thanks girl LOL
On the subject of women struggling to forgo femininity, I try my best to have empathy for them. I'm much like you, YYN; for most of my life, and even before I knew a thing about gender or feminism, I've preferred a more "traditionally masculine" style and presentation. My mom likes to tell the story of how when I was in kindergarten, all the girls were supposed to wear dresses for our class photo, but I apparently threw an absolute fit over the idea of wearing a skirt, so she found me a pair of baggy girls' sailor shorts that sort of looked like a skirt if you squinted and I was allowed to wear that instead 🤣
But I don't believe that preference was "natural," except perhaps in the sense that it's more natural to prefer clothes that are comfortable and functional. It's hard to know what I was really thinking as a kindergartner, but even then I think I had already absorbed messages about what women were supposed to be - small, dainty, pretty, quiet... Objects to be seen and not heard. And I rejected that idea with all my might, which most likely influenced me to avoid skirts, pink, makeup, princesses, and other such "traditionally feminine" interests for young girls.
Of course, the flip side of this is not that women should just accept "traditionally feminine" interests, unless they are special NLOG tomboy rebels. The actual flip side of this is that all women absorb those same messages about what women are supposed to be, and it's quite normal for most people, not just women, to want to be accepted by society - to belong - to do what is expected of them. Gender nonconformity is very freeing, and I enjoy it very much, but that doesn't touch on the parts of it that make life harder socially. I'm not saying that conforming confers privileges; far from it. Rather, not conforming leads to censure, which is uncomfortable, and which many people find quite intolerable. You have to reach a certain level of not giving a fuck to live proudly and happily GNC, and I don't know that most people ever get there.
(Side note: this is a totally separate ramble, but I think this is why so many modern transgender people are so miserable. They give way too much of a fuck to be able to live happily as someone who is visibly "different.")
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