Discussion Do you ever wonder if maybe we do kind of have gender identities, or at least experience “gender” of some kind?
Discussion Do you ever wonder if maybe we do kind of have gender identities, or at least experience “gender” of some kind?
Apr 21 2025, 7:34 AM
(Apr 21 2025, 6:16 AM)YesYourNigelQuote:More like if as an atheist I still used sinful to describe people.
How is GNC in any way a negative value judgement? That doesn't make sense.
Your atheism comparison checks out because GNC is defined as a rejection of a prescribed societal system. If there were no demand foe gender conformity, there would be no need to describe a lack of it, but that's not the world we live in, is it?
Honestly this reminds me of Christians who claim atheists secretly believe in God because calling oneself atheist ("godless") supposes that God exists.
I didn't say that it is negative. I said I don't like to use language that I don't see the value in. If I think of people as sinners and not sinners, then I still haven't fully removed myself from categorizing things based on religious values that I claim not to hold. I can discuss how other people view me as a sinner and how that has affected my life. Or whether or not I have committed sins as seen through a religious lens. But neither require me to adopt the concept of "sinner" in my own views.
Fwiw, I also don't love to describe myself as atheist. Not because it supposes god exists, but because is supports framing deity belief as the default state to compare yourself to. It is the dominant belief, sure, but I don't agree it should be the default.
I think it breaks down as a parallel because "non belief in a diety" is at least an objective claim. I do not believe in a deity. This doesn't require the participation of others because my belief or lack thereof isn't a social construct. I literally do not, and theoretically if brain scans could show thought you could verify my claim. Gender roles are so varied across culture and time. People can perform varying amounts of their gender roles at any given time. You can't put a percentage on how conforming to a role someone is. So at least when I say "I am an atheist" I know that I am making a specific claim.
Of course we can talk about the lack of performing gender roles. I never said otherwise. We live in a gendered society. I reject the entire framework. I said I don't like to consider myself gender non-conforming [adjective] when the truth is I don't conform to cultural gender roles [verb].
It's just a conscious choice that I try to make to keep myself from holding a genderist point of view because I believe language reinforces our understanding of the world. Discussing performing or not performing your gender role and the effects that has can be separated from thinking of people as gender conforming or gender non conforming. Gender conformity (or lack thereof) is not a quality I possess, I just so happen to live in a world where I am asked to act out a certain role because of my sex, but I don't.
Why would I size myself up on a scale I don't believe in and don't value?
Edited Apr 21 2025, 8:55 AM by Lemonade.
(Apr 21 2025, 6:16 AM)YesYourNigelQuote:More like if as an atheist I still used sinful to describe people.
How is GNC in any way a negative value judgement? That doesn't make sense.
Your atheism comparison checks out because GNC is defined as a rejection of a prescribed societal system. If there were no demand foe gender conformity, there would be no need to describe a lack of it, but that's not the world we live in, is it?
Honestly this reminds me of Christians who claim atheists secretly believe in God because calling oneself atheist ("godless") supposes that God exists.
I didn't say that it is negative. I said I don't like to use language that I don't see the value in. If I think of people as sinners and not sinners, then I still haven't fully removed myself from categorizing things based on religious values that I claim not to hold. I can discuss how other people view me as a sinner and how that has affected my life. Or whether or not I have committed sins as seen through a religious lens. But neither require me to adopt the concept of "sinner" in my own views.
Fwiw, I also don't love to describe myself as atheist. Not because it supposes god exists, but because is supports framing deity belief as the default state to compare yourself to. It is the dominant belief, sure, but I don't agree it should be the default.
I think it breaks down as a parallel because "non belief in a diety" is at least an objective claim. I do not believe in a deity. This doesn't require the participation of others because my belief or lack thereof isn't a social construct. I literally do not, and theoretically if brain scans could show thought you could verify my claim. Gender roles are so varied across culture and time. People can perform varying amounts of their gender roles at any given time. You can't put a percentage on how conforming to a role someone is. So at least when I say "I am an atheist" I know that I am making a specific claim.
Of course we can talk about the lack of performing gender roles. I never said otherwise. We live in a gendered society. I reject the entire framework. I said I don't like to consider myself gender non-conforming [adjective] when the truth is I don't conform to cultural gender roles [verb].
It's just a conscious choice that I try to make to keep myself from holding a genderist point of view because I believe language reinforces our understanding of the world. Discussing performing or not performing your gender role and the effects that has can be separated from thinking of people as gender conforming or gender non conforming. Gender conformity (or lack thereof) is not a quality I possess, I just so happen to live in a world where I am asked to act out a certain role because of my sex, but I don't.
Why would I size myself up on a scale I don't believe in and don't value?