libfem vs radfem vs tradfem
libfem vs radfem vs tradfem
Jan 28 2025, 1:01 PM
LIBFEM PERSPECTIVE
- We typically define solidarity as the act of agreeing with us at all times no matter what. We believe that the best way to encourage libfeminist solidarity is to turn every minor disagreement into a Maoist struggle session. This way, everyone will be too broken and miserable to go against the group. We believe we can achieve cooperation through guilt, shame, and fear.
- We encourage solidarity by forming a complicated (and ever-changing) Oppression Hierarchy with the "most oppressed" at the top and the "least oppressed" at the bottom. You can speak however you want toward someone lower than you, but must be endlessly kind and gentle toward those who are higher than you.
- We encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality between libfeminism and other ideologies. We believe radfems are inherently evil and have no interest in sharing our perspective with them or listening to their perspectives. We believe strict ideological purity is essential, and any discussion with other groups will water down our movement.
- Any amount of discomfort is okay, in fact you should just always be miserable. The point of libfeminist solidarity is to feel as ashamed and guilty as possible at all times. If you are not constantly experiencing guilt and shame, you are at risk of becoming a Nazi. Constant guilt and shame is how we motivate ourselves to Do Better.
- We define "tone-policing" as any boundaries around how someone speaks to/about someone lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than them. For example:
- A: "As a trans woman I think cis lesbians who don't suck girldick deserve to be raped.". It would be tone policing to shut this down, because cis lesbians are lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than trans women.
- B: "As a lesbian it pisses me off when trans women threaten to rape me and it's fucked up that you keep telling me to ignore it." It would not be tone policing to shut this down, because cis lesbians are lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than trans women.
- Any amount of abuse or dehumanization is acceptable for women we disagree with. We believe that solidarity is when you accept constant abuse and dehumanization with a smile. We may test your allegiance to our movement by dogpiling you for a minor faux-pas and then dogpiling you even harder when you apologize. We enjoy sending graphic threats of rape and violence and doxxing people we disagree with because they deserve it. It is literally impossible to go too far, any level of abuse is acceptable for women we disagree with.
RADFEM PERSPECTIVE
- We typically define solidarity as the idea that all women are suffering under patriarchy, so all women have the potential to be our allies in the fight against patriarchy. However, we also recognize that all women are not automatically our allies just because they have the potential to become our allies. Many women are anti-feminist and have beliefs that go against radfeminist principles. Many women have beliefs that are bigoted or harmful toward women. Solidarity does not mean that we automatically agree with all women, solidarity means that:
- A: We oppose the oppression of all women, even the women we disagree with and
- B: We do not dehumanize/abuse the women we disagree with.
- We encourage solidarity by sticking to our principles while maintaining a baseline level of civility for all women. Solidarity does not mean we have to agree with and be kind to all women, it means that even when we disagree with women we don't cross a line into abuse or dehumanization.
- We do not encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality toward libfeminists or tradfeminists. Many of us came into radfeminism from libfeminism, tradfeminism, or other ideologies. Many of us became interested in radfeminism because we realized that tradfeminism and libfeminism were not helping or serving women. Many of us have an understanding of typical libfem and tradfem perspectives, and this is valuable because it helps us to strengthen the radfeminist perspective. We need to understand the other side in order to effectively argue against them. Solidarity means giving tradfems and libfems the opportunity to learn about radfeminism and change their minds. However, it does not mean compromising our principles to attract tradfems and libfems who are not open to learning about radfeminism and changing their minds.
- Some amount of discomfort is okay. It can feel uncomfortable to be disagreed with or corrected. It can feel uncomfortable to be told that you are being bigoted or harmful toward other women. Women have the right to speak in ways that make you uncomfortable as long as it's not crossing a line into abuse or dehumanization. If the discourse is making you miserable or affecting your mental health, it's okay to walk away for a while. Misery isn't actually productive and will not make you a better radfeminist or activist.
- We define "tone policing" as demanding that women be kind and gentle at all times, even when their rights are being violated. "Tone policing" is frequently used to shut down women who are making valid points, and it's especially weaponized to shut down minority women. Women who are loud, angry, or harsh are not automatically abusive. For example:
- A: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly they PISS ME OFF!!!.". It would be tone policing to shut this down, because the woman is not abusing/dehumanizing other women. She is just pissed off.
- B: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly I hope they get raped." It would not be tone policing to shut this down, because it crosses the line into abuse/dehumanization.
- No amount of abuse or dehumanization is okay. We can disagree with other women (and even disagree strongly and passionately) without crossing a line into abuse or dehumanization. If a woman is crossing the line into alt-right rhetoric, extreme libfem rhetoric, or is being abusive toward other women, it may be necessary to ban her from the space but it is still wrong to abuse or dehumanize her as revenge. Loud disagreement is fine, banhammer is fine in some cases, rape threats are never fine.
TRADFEM PERSPECTIVE
- We define solidarity as the act of agreeing with us at all times no matter what. We believe that anyone who disagrees with us is either a libfem or pandering to libfems.
- We encourage solidarity by constructing a "default" woman (typically white, middle-upper class, straight, and American) and centering our space entirely around her comfort. We believe that non-default women must show solidarity by being sweet and gentle toward default women at all times.
- We encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality between tradfeminism and libfeminism. We believe libfems, former libfems, and women who remind us of libfems (typically minority women) are inherently evil. We have no interest in sharing our perspective with them or listening to their perspectives. We believe strict ideological purity is essential, and any discussion with other groups will water down our movement.
- No amount of discomfort is okay for the default woman. We must be sweet and gentle towards her at all times, even when she is being anti-feminist or bigoted toward other women. The primary goal of solidarity is to make the default woman feel welcome in tradfeminism even when she is being anti-feminist. Any amount of discomfort is okay for non-default women, up to and including abuse and dehumanization. The non-default woman has an obligation to swallow this discomfort for the sake of tradfeminist solidarity.
- We define "tone policing" as any attempt to draw boundaries around how we speak to/about non-default women. Default women are allowed to say whatever they want, because if we limit their speech we will drive them away from tradfeminism. For example:
- A: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly they PISS ME OFF!!!". It would not be tone policing to shut this down because it crosses the line into making default women feel uncomfortable.
- B: "Who cares about detrans women? They're all stupid libfems for transitioning in the first place so it'd be funny if they got raped by the trans males they used to worship". It would be tone policing to shut this down because it targets non-default women instead of default women, and is therefore not a problem. Additionally, the statement was likely made by a default woman and we cannot drive default women away from tradfeminism.
- Abuse or dehumanization toward non-default women is sometimes a necessary evil. It is impossible to disagree with libfeminism without sometimes crossing a line into abuse/dehumanization. Banning default women from a space for crossing the line into abuse/dehumanization will lead to purity spirals and the death of our movement. Banning non-default women from a space for loudly or passionately disagreeing will prevent purity spirals and make our movement stronger.Â
footnotes:
N/A
history:
posted 1/28/2025
with help from:
thanks @Elsacat for the point on welcoming former libs/trads! view her post here.
SOLIDARITY
LIBFEM PERSPECTIVE
- We typically define solidarity as the act of agreeing with us at all times no matter what. We believe that the best way to encourage libfeminist solidarity is to turn every minor disagreement into a Maoist struggle session. This way, everyone will be too broken and miserable to go against the group. We believe we can achieve cooperation through guilt, shame, and fear.
- We encourage solidarity by forming a complicated (and ever-changing) Oppression Hierarchy with the "most oppressed" at the top and the "least oppressed" at the bottom. You can speak however you want toward someone lower than you, but must be endlessly kind and gentle toward those who are higher than you.
- We encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality between libfeminism and other ideologies. We believe radfems are inherently evil and have no interest in sharing our perspective with them or listening to their perspectives. We believe strict ideological purity is essential, and any discussion with other groups will water down our movement.
- Any amount of discomfort is okay, in fact you should just always be miserable. The point of libfeminist solidarity is to feel as ashamed and guilty as possible at all times. If you are not constantly experiencing guilt and shame, you are at risk of becoming a Nazi. Constant guilt and shame is how we motivate ourselves to Do Better.
- We define "tone-policing" as any boundaries around how someone speaks to/about someone lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than them. For example:
- A: "As a trans woman I think cis lesbians who don't suck girldick deserve to be raped.". It would be tone policing to shut this down, because cis lesbians are lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than trans women.
- B: "As a lesbian it pisses me off when trans women threaten to rape me and it's fucked up that you keep telling me to ignore it." It would not be tone policing to shut this down, because cis lesbians are lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than trans women.
- Any amount of abuse or dehumanization is acceptable for women we disagree with. We believe that solidarity is when you accept constant abuse and dehumanization with a smile. We may test your allegiance to our movement by dogpiling you for a minor faux-pas and then dogpiling you even harder when you apologize. We enjoy sending graphic threats of rape and violence and doxxing people we disagree with because they deserve it. It is literally impossible to go too far, any level of abuse is acceptable for women we disagree with.
RADFEM PERSPECTIVE
- We typically define solidarity as the idea that all women are suffering under patriarchy, so all women have the potential to be our allies in the fight against patriarchy. However, we also recognize that all women are not automatically our allies just because they have the potential to become our allies. Many women are anti-feminist and have beliefs that go against radfeminist principles. Many women have beliefs that are bigoted or harmful toward women. Solidarity does not mean that we automatically agree with all women, solidarity means that:
- A: We oppose the oppression of all women, even the women we disagree with and
- B: We do not dehumanize/abuse the women we disagree with.
- We encourage solidarity by sticking to our principles while maintaining a baseline level of civility for all women. Solidarity does not mean we have to agree with and be kind to all women, it means that even when we disagree with women we don't cross a line into abuse or dehumanization.
- We do not encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality toward libfeminists or tradfeminists. Many of us came into radfeminism from libfeminism, tradfeminism, or other ideologies. Many of us became interested in radfeminism because we realized that tradfeminism and libfeminism were not helping or serving women. Many of us have an understanding of typical libfem and tradfem perspectives, and this is valuable because it helps us to strengthen the radfeminist perspective. We need to understand the other side in order to effectively argue against them. Solidarity means giving tradfems and libfems the opportunity to learn about radfeminism and change their minds. However, it does not mean compromising our principles to attract tradfems and libfems who are not open to learning about radfeminism and changing their minds.
- Some amount of discomfort is okay. It can feel uncomfortable to be disagreed with or corrected. It can feel uncomfortable to be told that you are being bigoted or harmful toward other women. Women have the right to speak in ways that make you uncomfortable as long as it's not crossing a line into abuse or dehumanization. If the discourse is making you miserable or affecting your mental health, it's okay to walk away for a while. Misery isn't actually productive and will not make you a better radfeminist or activist.
- We define "tone policing" as demanding that women be kind and gentle at all times, even when their rights are being violated. "Tone policing" is frequently used to shut down women who are making valid points, and it's especially weaponized to shut down minority women. Women who are loud, angry, or harsh are not automatically abusive. For example:
- A: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly they PISS ME OFF!!!.". It would be tone policing to shut this down, because the woman is not abusing/dehumanizing other women. She is just pissed off.
- B: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly I hope they get raped." It would not be tone policing to shut this down, because it crosses the line into abuse/dehumanization.
- No amount of abuse or dehumanization is okay. We can disagree with other women (and even disagree strongly and passionately) without crossing a line into abuse or dehumanization. If a woman is crossing the line into alt-right rhetoric, extreme libfem rhetoric, or is being abusive toward other women, it may be necessary to ban her from the space but it is still wrong to abuse or dehumanize her as revenge. Loud disagreement is fine, banhammer is fine in some cases, rape threats are never fine.
TRADFEM PERSPECTIVE
- We define solidarity as the act of agreeing with us at all times no matter what. We believe that anyone who disagrees with us is either a libfem or pandering to libfems.
- We encourage solidarity by constructing a "default" woman (typically white, middle-upper class, straight, and American) and centering our space entirely around her comfort. We believe that non-default women must show solidarity by being sweet and gentle toward default women at all times.
- We encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality between tradfeminism and libfeminism. We believe libfems, former libfems, and women who remind us of libfems (typically minority women) are inherently evil. We have no interest in sharing our perspective with them or listening to their perspectives. We believe strict ideological purity is essential, and any discussion with other groups will water down our movement.
- No amount of discomfort is okay for the default woman. We must be sweet and gentle towards her at all times, even when she is being anti-feminist or bigoted toward other women. The primary goal of solidarity is to make the default woman feel welcome in tradfeminism even when she is being anti-feminist. Any amount of discomfort is okay for non-default women, up to and including abuse and dehumanization. The non-default woman has an obligation to swallow this discomfort for the sake of tradfeminist solidarity.
- We define "tone policing" as any attempt to draw boundaries around how we speak to/about non-default women. Default women are allowed to say whatever they want, because if we limit their speech we will drive them away from tradfeminism. For example:
- A: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly they PISS ME OFF!!!". It would not be tone policing to shut this down because it crosses the line into making default women feel uncomfortable.
- B: "Who cares about detrans women? They're all stupid libfems for transitioning in the first place so it'd be funny if they got raped by the trans males they used to worship". It would be tone policing to shut this down because it targets non-default women instead of default women, and is therefore not a problem. Additionally, the statement was likely made by a default woman and we cannot drive default women away from tradfeminism.
- Abuse or dehumanization toward non-default women is sometimes a necessary evil. It is impossible to disagree with libfeminism without sometimes crossing a line into abuse/dehumanization. Banning default women from a space for crossing the line into abuse/dehumanization will lead to purity spirals and the death of our movement. Banning non-default women from a space for loudly or passionately disagreeing will prevent purity spirals and make our movement stronger.Â
footnotes:
N/A
history:
posted 1/28/2025
with help from:
thanks @Elsacat for the point on welcoming former libs/trads! view her post here.