TIF drama on r/trans

alefia

Yesterday, 3:12 PM

#11

(Yesterday, 1:06 AM)komorebi
(Jul 15 2025, 12:46 AM)OffMyTit Hard to feel bad for them. If a regular woman who knows she’s a woman had said the same thing this TIF did, the TIF would have been first in line to give her the same treatment.

Strange take on a feminist forum. So you only care about women who "deserve" to be cared about, whatever that means to you? Women who have never made imperfect or ignorant choices, I suppose? Perhaps women who have never been callous about the suffering of other women? I wonder if you would qualify under these standards.

It is not about care but resistance. Women directly helping men in hurting/harassing/raping/killing other women are a threat to the resistance.

There are TIFs acting like hunting dogs for TIMs, and giving them the benefit of the doubt only puts you (and other women) in danger. To illustrate this further: would you have solidarity for a TIF who aided a TIM in raping a lesbian?

The case above is not an hypothetical scenario. Be more skeptical. Without a background check, I would flat-out reject including TIFs in any women's liberation group.

Kozlik
Bahhh 💜🐐

338

Yesterday, 4:12 PM

#12

The discourse in this thread has rapidly degraded and has led to a completely unrelated member saying they no longer wish to participate here because of the perceived toxicity. Which is kind of disappointing. I leave my thoughts as a general cautionary tale and am not necessarily taking any official moderation action yet, but would like for @OffMyTit and @YesYourNigel to reflect on their commenting behaviors.

For starters, @OffMyTit, this thread was essentially instantly derailed by a nearly irrelevant starting comment of "hard to feel bad for them" and making assumptions about how the transgender-identifying woman in question would have responded in some hypothetical situation, which is entirely based on your imagination. TIFs are women who struggle with body dysphoria and mental illness. They are still women. Some may have suffered sexual abuse. They deserve, like all women, to not be subjected to misogyny and oppression. In my view, your comment would be akin to me replying to an article about a Republican woman dying due to not being able to get an abortion with "idgaf, she voted for it", which would of course be nonconstructive and fucked up.

This is the second instance I've seen on this forum, though not from the same person to be fair, of a flippantly dismissive and callous, basically thought-stopping, rhetoric that can be summarized along the lines of "I don't care about this feminist issue/this group of women and I just feel like saying that." While I don't like tone-policing, I feel something needs to be said along the lines of: maybe if other women here care about an issue they see that affects a group of women, let them be? Maybe we shouldn't be dragging down women who try to analyze misogyny in various groups? Maybe there's better uses of our time than leaving dismissive short comments that detract from the purpose of the post? Maybe this thread would have been better used as a way to discuss and analyze misogyny in the transgender community than whatever the hell this turned out to be, by the starting seed of "idgaf about TIFs"?

And then eventually the responses continue to deteriorate into a feminist-purity-spiral pissing contest. The "are you new to feminism" back and forth is juvenile and counterproductive. Address the topic at hand rather than resorting to ad hominems. @YesYourNigel I have seen this at least a couple times before in other posts of yours towards different members about essentially questioning their right to participate on this forum, in cases where their posts were relatively benign and they were not attempting to be overly obtuse or dismissive. Though it looks like one of those times was a different discussion with OffMyTit, the other times were with at least two different members. While I understand the desire to ensure people are participating in good faith, these comments often come off as hostile and create an unwelcoming environment which can discourage participation and further discussion.

And then while I spent time last night reading through these comments and drafting this response, @alefia decides to chime in likening TIFs to "hunting dogs" and generalizing them as not deserving the benefit of the doubt. Do not dehumanize women on this forum.

So yeah, while I don't like tone-policing, the discussion in this thread has taken such a nonconstructive turn that I feel the need to state that this kind of back and forth is really not in the spirit of what I set out make with this forum.

I truly am stuck between deciding whether I need to "tone police" when shit gets this bad, or if I need to tell people this place isn't Weenie Hut Jr. and sometimes you'll see arguments. I don't know and I don't really like either of those options. Please try to have constructive conversations here, so I don't need to spend hours drafting these responses.

Please refer to the Rules & Guidelines and the "About clovenhooves" page to get a refresher on what this forum is meant to strive towards, specifically:

Quote:This community is intended to be a space that strives on building up, not tearing down. Even though this community is selective about membership in order to create a community focused on furthering feminist causes, we want to continue striving to seek solidarity with all women. Take down patriarchal structures, not fellow women.

Further responses after this point that continue the dehumanization or belittlement of transgender-identifying female people, or that continue the feminist-purity-spiral pissing contest, will be met with actual warnings.

OffMyTit

Today, 3:24 AM

#13

(Yesterday, 10:46 AM)komorebi
(Yesterday, 3:50 AM)OffMyTit Let me ask you a question. Does one have to feel sorry for recalcitrant women to still do feminist work on their behalf? Is the pity the feminist part for you? Asking because all I said was that it was hard to feel sorry for them, not that I was happy they boarded the boat they’re in.

Obviously, feminist action is the feminist part, not pity, but I would argue that such feminist action is typically preceded by caring about the suffering of other women. I'm sorry if you don't like me holding up a mirror to your actions, but you're doing exactly the thing that you're accusing these hypothetical women of doing. We don't know you and all we have to understand you by are your comments on the thread, so if the thing you choose to represent yourself with is the throwaway answer "I don't care about the suffering of these women," then why be upset that people are drawing conclusions, right or wrong, from your words?

Why can’t you actually quote what I said if my words really speak so terribly. “It’s hard to feel sorry for” is not “I don’t care.” If you first have to mischaracterize, this isn’t an academic exercise but a manipulative performance.

I think the problem is that it isn’t exactly kind to say that one’s empathy and patience have run dry. I have seen where the focus on kindness uber alles gets us and I’m not interested. You’re not holding my feet to the fire. You’re exerting pressure on me to conform to another kindness directive just like the one used to bulldoze common sense in feminist spaces almost 20 years ago.

When those women’s friendship’s are revealed to have been built on sand, and the doubts start creeping in, and they find themselves looking wistfully in the rear view mirror at the life they could have had as just a regular woman in a relationship with another woman, neither one of whom is not like other girls, they will come around. I hope it’s sooner than later but they don’t want my help.