separatism vs activism
separatism vs activism
reading through the various arguments I find myself agreeing with both sides in a lot of places.
the activism side argues that without it, we wouldn’t have the right to vote, bank accounts, property ownership, financial independence, sexual harassment and abortion laws, a lot of practical structures that free women in concrete ways. i completely agree with this.
the separatism side argues that women need a space away from men to experience themselves as human beings, to experience freedom and to experience female solidarity, and to develop networks of mutual aid. I also completely agree with this.
and then everyone starts fighting, which i really don’t understand. We need both! Both is good! There are more than enough women in the world to do all the projects! We can have some women creating separatist spaces for women to take shelter in, and we can have some women banding together to create practical change that free women in the short term. What is there to argue about?
I mean, maybe the background of this is the whole lesbian vs straight women thing? Which tbh i also don’t understand why we have to fight about this. I’m a lesbian, and the majority of my friends and feminist collaborators are straight women. just by looking at the women around me I’m very very aware of how being partnered with a woman saves me an incredible amount of bullshit in my life, and yet I’m equally aware of why women choose to be het-partnered.
for example in our organization there’s one women whose job title includes the word ‘responsible’. Her husband began a campaign to undermine her participation by telling her that because her job title said ‘responsible’ that when our organization ‘inevitably bankrupted’ she would be left holding the legal debt which then (his main point) would impact him. So she was scared by him into wanting to leave her position, when we really don’t have anyone else who can fill that right now, and so it would have caused a huge strain on us, but also, she’s perfect for this position, it’s very good for her, and she likes the work. We were able to show her that he was just fucking with her, that the legal responsiblity for the money actually lay with a different role in the org, but it was yet another example of how men could reach into our private business and stir us about, because of how women are so financialy and emotionaly bound up with their legal male partners.
so, do I cut off my friendship with this woman just because her husband is a danger to us? Obviously not, because her husband is even more of a danger to her, and I’m trying to support her until her children are old enough that she can safely choose to leave him. Is it irritating that her husband can just reach through her and fuck with us like that? Absolutely. Am I angry that women are constantly misled into marriage and find out too late that they are trapped? Of fucking course. Do I then conclude that all straight women are bullshit? Also of course not. But am I going to be cautious about who joins the group in future, and only let in lesbians? Also of course not. Because every set of hands is valuable and necessary, and we do other things to protect ourselves (like not let any man have a position of power in the org).
so what I want to ask is, what is the separatism/activism divide about? why are people making it a choice between the two things? is the foundational problem just either-or thinking? if you are separatist why do you side-eye male-involved women? if you are a male-involved woman, why do you side-eye separatists?
feministdragon
Jun 19 2024, 8:48 PM #1every once in a while a discussion flares up on tumblr: separatism vs activism
reading through the various arguments I find myself agreeing with both sides in a lot of places.
the activism side argues that without it, we wouldn’t have the right to vote, bank accounts, property ownership, financial independence, sexual harassment and abortion laws, a lot of practical structures that free women in concrete ways. i completely agree with this.
the separatism side argues that women need a space away from men to experience themselves as human beings, to experience freedom and to experience female solidarity, and to develop networks of mutual aid. I also completely agree with this.
and then everyone starts fighting, which i really don’t understand. We need both! Both is good! There are more than enough women in the world to do all the projects! We can have some women creating separatist spaces for women to take shelter in, and we can have some women banding together to create practical change that free women in the short term. What is there to argue about?
I mean, maybe the background of this is the whole lesbian vs straight women thing? Which tbh i also don’t understand why we have to fight about this. I’m a lesbian, and the majority of my friends and feminist collaborators are straight women. just by looking at the women around me I’m very very aware of how being partnered with a woman saves me an incredible amount of bullshit in my life, and yet I’m equally aware of why women choose to be het-partnered.
for example in our organization there’s one women whose job title includes the word ‘responsible’. Her husband began a campaign to undermine her participation by telling her that because her job title said ‘responsible’ that when our organization ‘inevitably bankrupted’ she would be left holding the legal debt which then (his main point) would impact him. So she was scared by him into wanting to leave her position, when we really don’t have anyone else who can fill that right now, and so it would have caused a huge strain on us, but also, she’s perfect for this position, it’s very good for her, and she likes the work. We were able to show her that he was just fucking with her, that the legal responsiblity for the money actually lay with a different role in the org, but it was yet another example of how men could reach into our private business and stir us about, because of how women are so financialy and emotionaly bound up with their legal male partners.
so, do I cut off my friendship with this woman just because her husband is a danger to us? Obviously not, because her husband is even more of a danger to her, and I’m trying to support her until her children are old enough that she can safely choose to leave him. Is it irritating that her husband can just reach through her and fuck with us like that? Absolutely. Am I angry that women are constantly misled into marriage and find out too late that they are trapped? Of fucking course. Do I then conclude that all straight women are bullshit? Also of course not. But am I going to be cautious about who joins the group in future, and only let in lesbians? Also of course not. Because every set of hands is valuable and necessary, and we do other things to protect ourselves (like not let any man have a position of power in the org).
so what I want to ask is, what is the separatism/activism divide about? why are people making it a choice between the two things? is the foundational problem just either-or thinking? if you are separatist why do you side-eye male-involved women? if you are a male-involved woman, why do you side-eye separatists?
I agree with you that it would be nice if female separatists and those who are not could work together to achieve women's liberation. I think maybe the point of contention is that female separatists feel that living/being with the oppressor class (men) is not helping women achieve female liberation? Which causes tension within the feminist community.
There are many women who make individual choices that I feel go "against feminism." For instance, I criticize beauty culture. I also criticize patriarchal social systems like women taking their husband's last names and the nuclear family model. However, that does not mean I am not friends with women who wear makeup or take their husband's last names, nor do I look down on them. I try to keep in mind that they are making choices for their survival in a world deeply embedded in misogyny. The key, in my view, is class analysis.
I write such a bit in the note on female solidarity on radfem.kindrad.org:
radfem.kindrad.org Class analysis is not a meant to be a personal judgment, personal attack, or demand to be a “flawless” feminist; it is a request to reflect and analyze where women can be more women-centric and pro-women.
Hmm. I think separatism is a form of activism, so I'm not sure what is meant by separatism vs activism? Separatism is also a lifestyle. For example, the Umoja Uaso is an all-female tribe in Africa. They formed to escape the violence and misogyny of men. They now live peacefully in their tribe, and I wish them all the best.
I agree with you that it would be nice if female separatists and those who are not could work together to achieve women's liberation. I think maybe the point of contention is that female separatists feel that living/being with the oppressor class (men) is not helping women achieve female liberation? Which causes tension within the feminist community.
There are many women who make individual choices that I feel go "against feminism." For instance, I criticize beauty culture. I also criticize patriarchal social systems like women taking their husband's last names and the nuclear family model. However, that does not mean I am not friends with women who wear makeup or take their husband's last names, nor do I look down on them. I try to keep in mind that they are making choices for their survival in a world deeply embedded in misogyny. The key, in my view, is class analysis.
I write such a bit in the note on female solidarity on radfem.kindrad.org:
radfem.kindrad.org Class analysis is not a meant to be a personal judgment, personal attack, or demand to be a “flawless” feminist; it is a request to reflect and analyze where women can be more women-centric and pro-women.
As great as it would be for separatist communities to exist all over the planet, the truth is that we live in an incredibly misogynistic world. Separatism is seen as extreme and unreasonable by non-radfems, so it's highly unlikely we'll see a substantial amount of separatist communities not only exist, but also be respected, protected and allowed to flourish in our lifetimes. This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to make a world where that will be possible, of course. We need activism to change our world to become fairer and more protective of all women and girls, and our rights and needs. If separatist communities were to be made overnight, they would immediately be invaded, disrespected, and most likely dismantled due to not being able to protect themselves. It's something we need to work towards as a movement, even if we won't see it happen for a very long time...
Activism helps in that fight. The more we make the world a better place (in the ways that we can as individuals and as a movement), the more likely it'll be possible for separatist communities to exist. This is how I see it. I hope I'm not being naïve.
That woman's husband sounds like an awful person. He's already expecting your organization, where his wife works(!), to "inevitably go bankrupt"?! Way to have faith in his own wife's endeavors. And to mislead her into thinking it'd come back to bite them, specifically HIM?!? Incredibly narcissistic behavior. I hope she divorces him. Not gonna lie, if I were you, I'd tell her straight up that he has little to no faith in her, that he doesn't support her in the least, that his actions could've very negatively impacted the organization (said negative impact would be getting her to leave), and if the organization is specifically feminist, point out how anti-feminist the man clearly is. Who knows, maybe nothing will happen, or maybe she will one day rid herself of her attachment to that manbaby. "Wah wah, my wife has a position of responsibility working in something she does well, and since I don't have any faith in what she does, it means the inevitable debt will be on ME! I need her to leave, wahh..."
gretchenantwort
Jun 21 2024, 12:54 PM #3I've personally not seen the separatism vs. activism discussion myself, but if it exists then that is incredibly frustrating, honestly. Both of those things help feminism and to pit one against the other seems silly to me.
As great as it would be for separatist communities to exist all over the planet, the truth is that we live in an incredibly misogynistic world. Separatism is seen as extreme and unreasonable by non-radfems, so it's highly unlikely we'll see a substantial amount of separatist communities not only exist, but also be respected, protected and allowed to flourish in our lifetimes. This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to make a world where that will be possible, of course. We need activism to change our world to become fairer and more protective of all women and girls, and our rights and needs. If separatist communities were to be made overnight, they would immediately be invaded, disrespected, and most likely dismantled due to not being able to protect themselves. It's something we need to work towards as a movement, even if we won't see it happen for a very long time...
Activism helps in that fight. The more we make the world a better place (in the ways that we can as individuals and as a movement), the more likely it'll be possible for separatist communities to exist. This is how I see it. I hope I'm not being naïve.
That woman's husband sounds like an awful person. He's already expecting your organization, where his wife works(!), to "inevitably go bankrupt"?! Way to have faith in his own wife's endeavors. And to mislead her into thinking it'd come back to bite them, specifically HIM?!? Incredibly narcissistic behavior. I hope she divorces him. Not gonna lie, if I were you, I'd tell her straight up that he has little to no faith in her, that he doesn't support her in the least, that his actions could've very negatively impacted the organization (said negative impact would be getting her to leave), and if the organization is specifically feminist, point out how anti-feminist the man clearly is. Who knows, maybe nothing will happen, or maybe she will one day rid herself of her attachment to that manbaby. "Wah wah, my wife has a position of responsibility working in something she does well, and since I don't have any faith in what she does, it means the inevitable debt will be on ME! I need her to leave, wahh..."
and for some reason right now——i think its caused by the prevalence of id-politics type thinking or american liberal group-think politics——we think that anyone doing feminism ‘wrong’ is somehow a danger to the cause. which, i mean yeah, when people misrepresent us it’s not great, but it doesn’t warrant the absolute fanatic levels of ‘speech purity’ or ‘representative purity’ that i see people acting out. [I feel like i haven’t expressed this well]
"if I were you, I'd tell her straight up that he has little to no faith in her, that he doesn't support her in the least, that his actions could've very negatively impacted the organization (said negative impact would be getting her to leave), and if the organization is specifically feminist, point out how anti-feminist the man clearly is."
@gretchenantwort haha we have DEFINITELY had this conversation. almost lost the friendship over it, but thank god we're all right about it now. turns out she thought that if she didn't make the changes I was talking about then she had to cut off our relationship. like, ma'am, that's some world-class black and white thinking. I'm not going to disrespect you or stop loving you just because you didn't do what i said????? but this is how her husband treats her so she didn't really expect there was another way to look at it. anyways. she has a LOT of structural reasons to stay in the relationship, even as toxic as it is and as bad for her as it is for every reason you pointed out. haha but that's like, unfortunately normal, in this kind of situation. getting women out of toxic relationships is like coaxing a cat out of a sewer drain, you have to build up SO mUCH trust with them, and then you have to build up their courage, and it's often a beyond-frustrating process.
and I totally agree with you that separatism is actually a form of activism, so necessary to get women to even see what they could do, or achieve or build for themselves, and then have the space and time to build their courage to do it.
I think another factor in the separatist/activist discussion is that anything that women do is automatically second-class. Both women and men subconsciously believe this. So a group of women creating things is most likely less important, less good, or less effective, less worth doing, in everyone's subconscious assumptions.
Often when a man chimes in with women's opinions, or joins a women's group, it raises the status of the group or the opinion.
I noticed this in the discussion around girls-only education when I was trying to build a girls-only education space. everyone assumed that a learning space just for girls would be less quality than if there were boys involved. both men and women equally seemed to hold this opinion. ultimately i could not build enough support for the project because of this assumption that girls only space was inferior.
So this is perhaps another factor in why people dismiss separatism as a viable political strategy. if you have not experienced women-only decision making in women only space, and the incredible vibe of it, then you doubt its effectiveness or realness
feministdragon
Jun 23 2024, 4:18 AM #4@Kozlik you bring up good points. some women think of separatism as a lifestyle, some women think of separatism as a form of activism, and some women think of separatism as an identity (an offensive and/or useless one)
and for some reason right now——i think its caused by the prevalence of id-politics type thinking or american liberal group-think politics——we think that anyone doing feminism ‘wrong’ is somehow a danger to the cause. which, i mean yeah, when people misrepresent us it’s not great, but it doesn’t warrant the absolute fanatic levels of ‘speech purity’ or ‘representative purity’ that i see people acting out. [I feel like i haven’t expressed this well]
"if I were you, I'd tell her straight up that he has little to no faith in her, that he doesn't support her in the least, that his actions could've very negatively impacted the organization (said negative impact would be getting her to leave), and if the organization is specifically feminist, point out how anti-feminist the man clearly is."
@gretchenantwort haha we have DEFINITELY had this conversation. almost lost the friendship over it, but thank god we're all right about it now. turns out she thought that if she didn't make the changes I was talking about then she had to cut off our relationship. like, ma'am, that's some world-class black and white thinking. I'm not going to disrespect you or stop loving you just because you didn't do what i said????? but this is how her husband treats her so she didn't really expect there was another way to look at it. anyways. she has a LOT of structural reasons to stay in the relationship, even as toxic as it is and as bad for her as it is for every reason you pointed out. haha but that's like, unfortunately normal, in this kind of situation. getting women out of toxic relationships is like coaxing a cat out of a sewer drain, you have to build up SO mUCH trust with them, and then you have to build up their courage, and it's often a beyond-frustrating process.
and I totally agree with you that separatism is actually a form of activism, so necessary to get women to even see what they could do, or achieve or build for themselves, and then have the space and time to build their courage to do it.
I think another factor in the separatist/activist discussion is that anything that women do is automatically second-class. Both women and men subconsciously believe this. So a group of women creating things is most likely less important, less good, or less effective, less worth doing, in everyone's subconscious assumptions.
Often when a man chimes in with women's opinions, or joins a women's group, it raises the status of the group or the opinion.
I noticed this in the discussion around girls-only education when I was trying to build a girls-only education space. everyone assumed that a learning space just for girls would be less quality than if there were boys involved. both men and women equally seemed to hold this opinion. ultimately i could not build enough support for the project because of this assumption that girls only space was inferior.
So this is perhaps another factor in why people dismiss separatism as a viable political strategy. if you have not experienced women-only decision making in women only space, and the incredible vibe of it, then you doubt its effectiveness or realness
feministdragon haha we have DEFINITELY had this conversation. almost lost the friendship over it, but thank god we're all right about it now.
That's great to hear! I'm glad you're still friends. Their issues aren't your responsibility, but I'm happy to see you've tried to make her realize she's in a toxic relationship. The more women become independent of men, the better. Hopefully one day she leaves him, even if that's going to take years.
feministdragon I think another factor in the separatist/activist discussion is that anything that women do is automatically second-class. Both women and men subconsciously believe this. So a group of women creating things is most likely less important, less good, or less effective, less worth doing, in everyone's subconscious assumptions.
This is an interesting observation. I've never thought of this myself, but this may help in recontextualizing situations in my past and future. I can't say with certainty this happens, but I also can't deny it... Misogyny is so pervasive that I can't help but think it's rather likely! So, I propose: if anyone ever thinks she subconsciously believes this, she should immediately remind herself that groups of only women would be hindered by the presence of a single male, nevermind multiple. Anything made by only women, whether one woman or more, should be regarded as higher-quality/more impactful/etc. as anything that ever had the input of a male. This kind of thinking would help us to prioritize female-focused, female-lead and female-only projects and groups, and to revert any possible thoughts that male input is an inherently good influence and one that raises the quality of something. What's the worst that could happen, we begin devaluing males? We should already do that.
gretchenantwort
Jun 25 2024, 7:03 PM #5feministdragon haha we have DEFINITELY had this conversation. almost lost the friendship over it, but thank god we're all right about it now.
That's great to hear! I'm glad you're still friends. Their issues aren't your responsibility, but I'm happy to see you've tried to make her realize she's in a toxic relationship. The more women become independent of men, the better. Hopefully one day she leaves him, even if that's going to take years.
feministdragon I think another factor in the separatist/activist discussion is that anything that women do is automatically second-class. Both women and men subconsciously believe this. So a group of women creating things is most likely less important, less good, or less effective, less worth doing, in everyone's subconscious assumptions.
This is an interesting observation. I've never thought of this myself, but this may help in recontextualizing situations in my past and future. I can't say with certainty this happens, but I also can't deny it... Misogyny is so pervasive that I can't help but think it's rather likely! So, I propose: if anyone ever thinks she subconsciously believes this, she should immediately remind herself that groups of only women would be hindered by the presence of a single male, nevermind multiple. Anything made by only women, whether one woman or more, should be regarded as higher-quality/more impactful/etc. as anything that ever had the input of a male. This kind of thinking would help us to prioritize female-focused, female-lead and female-only projects and groups, and to revert any possible thoughts that male input is an inherently good influence and one that raises the quality of something. What's the worst that could happen, we begin devaluing males? We should already do that.
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