clovenhooves The Personal Is Political Gender Critical Discussion I think I've hit "peak peak trans" and I'm kind of tired of trans taking up my thinking space

Discussion I think I've hit "peak peak trans" and I'm kind of tired of trans taking up my thinking space

Discussion I think I've hit "peak peak trans" and I'm kind of tired of trans taking up my thinking space

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Elsacat
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Feb 6 2025, 1:00 PM
#1
Title, basically. When I was a trans ally, I let trans occupy a lot of my mind. Then when I peaked, I let trans skepticism, pushback, resentment, and questioning occupy a lot of my mind.

I'm tired of trans. I'm tired of thinking about trans, of centering trans. I'm tired of putting them first in my activism, whatever my activism happens to look like at the time. I never believed trans people were the most oppressed or in the most danger. I never believed trans people were doing the worst oppressing or causing the most danger. Why continue to give them so much focus?

To be clear, I haven't changed my mind on what I think trans is (mental illness/dysphoria/dysmorphia/fetish), its place in the LGB world (it doesn't have one), intruding into single-sex spaces and sports, etc. I'm not saying they should be allowed to do whatever or never questioned. I just don't want to center or elevate them any more, for any reason, pro-them or anti-them. Gender is a bigger issue and bigger problem than just trans.

Does this make any sense? It's been gnawing at my mind for a while.
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Elsacat
Feb 6 2025, 1:00 PM #1

Title, basically. When I was a trans ally, I let trans occupy a lot of my mind. Then when I peaked, I let trans skepticism, pushback, resentment, and questioning occupy a lot of my mind.

I'm tired of trans. I'm tired of thinking about trans, of centering trans. I'm tired of putting them first in my activism, whatever my activism happens to look like at the time. I never believed trans people were the most oppressed or in the most danger. I never believed trans people were doing the worst oppressing or causing the most danger. Why continue to give them so much focus?

To be clear, I haven't changed my mind on what I think trans is (mental illness/dysphoria/dysmorphia/fetish), its place in the LGB world (it doesn't have one), intruding into single-sex spaces and sports, etc. I'm not saying they should be allowed to do whatever or never questioned. I just don't want to center or elevate them any more, for any reason, pro-them or anti-them. Gender is a bigger issue and bigger problem than just trans.

Does this make any sense? It's been gnawing at my mind for a while.

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Clover
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Feb 6 2025, 1:36 PM
#2
I get what you mean. I think for me, trans has always been this bizarre unusual turn from the political party/general ideology in my country that I normally support. It definitely left me feeling politically homeless. However, I obviously still sided with Democrats over many other topics, so even though I felt left out, it outwardly still looked like I supported them (which is generally true).

The level of frenzy and fear over trans in recent politics has, in my opinion, been kind of ridiculous. I mean, it worked. Fear is an excellent motivator. We can see that by the fact that apparently some of Trump's best campaign advertisements were ones against transgenderism, and his claims that Kamala was going to continue promoting transgenderism (I feel that videos of her saying she wouldn't change anything and keep going with how things are going [in regards to Biden's administration] totally added to that worry).

Part of why I made this place is because I felt that there was so much focus on transgenderism on Ovarit. Like it just overwhelms everything. (When, when you look at all the topics that radical feminism encompasses, being gender critical is only one part of that.) It's kind of funny when you talk about "peak peak trans", because a lot of people talk about how they were sick of trans being shoved in their faces everywhere lol. The irony.

Quote:Gender is a bigger issue and bigger problem than just trans.
Definitely agree. And that was a large part of the issue for me, is that many just didn't seem to agree with that. Many are perfectly happy with the way things were before trans became mainstream, and therefore completely failed to realize that the reason trans became mainstream was because of the way things were before. Societal adherence to gender is what causes transgenderism. Transgenderism is a symptom, and gender is the disease. But these people don't want to look at the root cause, similarly how many people don't want to see how much patriarchy permeates all aspects of society. But there is no going back to the way things were before; feminists didn't want it, people who are struggling with living in a highly gendered society didn't want it. I fear we are going to be entering a bit of a political deadlock, as people will continue to refuse to understand the feminist explanations as to why gender needs to be abolished. Neither the neoliberal "left" or the authoritarian right want to do away with gender. So I worry we're going to be stuck with "trans politics" for a while.
Edited Feb 6 2025, 1:37 PM by Clover.
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Clover
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Feb 6 2025, 1:36 PM #2

I get what you mean. I think for me, trans has always been this bizarre unusual turn from the political party/general ideology in my country that I normally support. It definitely left me feeling politically homeless. However, I obviously still sided with Democrats over many other topics, so even though I felt left out, it outwardly still looked like I supported them (which is generally true).

The level of frenzy and fear over trans in recent politics has, in my opinion, been kind of ridiculous. I mean, it worked. Fear is an excellent motivator. We can see that by the fact that apparently some of Trump's best campaign advertisements were ones against transgenderism, and his claims that Kamala was going to continue promoting transgenderism (I feel that videos of her saying she wouldn't change anything and keep going with how things are going [in regards to Biden's administration] totally added to that worry).

Part of why I made this place is because I felt that there was so much focus on transgenderism on Ovarit. Like it just overwhelms everything. (When, when you look at all the topics that radical feminism encompasses, being gender critical is only one part of that.) It's kind of funny when you talk about "peak peak trans", because a lot of people talk about how they were sick of trans being shoved in their faces everywhere lol. The irony.

Quote:Gender is a bigger issue and bigger problem than just trans.
Definitely agree. And that was a large part of the issue for me, is that many just didn't seem to agree with that. Many are perfectly happy with the way things were before trans became mainstream, and therefore completely failed to realize that the reason trans became mainstream was because of the way things were before. Societal adherence to gender is what causes transgenderism. Transgenderism is a symptom, and gender is the disease. But these people don't want to look at the root cause, similarly how many people don't want to see how much patriarchy permeates all aspects of society. But there is no going back to the way things were before; feminists didn't want it, people who are struggling with living in a highly gendered society didn't want it. I fear we are going to be entering a bit of a political deadlock, as people will continue to refuse to understand the feminist explanations as to why gender needs to be abolished. Neither the neoliberal "left" or the authoritarian right want to do away with gender. So I worry we're going to be stuck with "trans politics" for a while.

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Lemonade
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Feb 7 2025, 10:23 AM
#3
I want so much to just not think about it anymore. I was never a trans ally. I always thought trans was this vaguely sexist concept by sexist men. But also, when aren't men being sexist? (To a fault, too, I definitely took too long to notice how quickly they were spreading their rhetoric.).

It's been so long that I've almost forgotten the reason I started seeking out places like r/gendercritical is because I wanted to be part of feminist spaces (or at least spaces that didn't tolerate overt misogyny.)

I have feminist issues that I would much rather focus on. But at the same time, it's become nearly impossible. Trans has taken over a lot of feminist discourse, and the "gender critical" spaces have become venting spaces and conservative hang outs. I'm not innocent in this. I've used my ovarit account pretty much solely for expressing my feelings on this topic and how illogical it all is. It's a safe and easy topic when I just want to vent.

And it's a self perpetuating cycle. The more that the space is used for venting, the more that people who want to vent are attracted to it. And venting is easier than action.

Anti-something internet communities all have the same problem. Being against something is a weak connection to have with people. It can be channeled into useful action with an immense amount of structure. But more often than not, it's the same pattern. There is an ever revolving door of users that feel relief because they found a community that approves of their unpopular belief. So they come in and start unloading what they've held in for a while. And then a lot of them move on, because they got what they needed. And the core users that stick around and dictate the flow of conversation tend to be the ones who the issue is their top priority.

And I'm just so tired. I don't have any in person communities. I don't have any online communities. I don't know how to take real action. And I know *be the change* I want to see. Make the topics I want to talk about. But here I am venting again.

Quote:Part of why I made this place is because I felt that there was so much focus on transgenderism on Ovarit. Like it just overwhelms everything.

Nothing made me cringe harder than when people made snide trans comments in topics completely unrelated to it where it was super inappropriate. Like under any of the posts about the oppression of women under the taliban, someone always has to bring up "Maybe they should identify as men" which... I get it but maybe this isn't the time??
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Lemonade
Feb 7 2025, 10:23 AM #3

I want so much to just not think about it anymore. I was never a trans ally. I always thought trans was this vaguely sexist concept by sexist men. But also, when aren't men being sexist? (To a fault, too, I definitely took too long to notice how quickly they were spreading their rhetoric.).

It's been so long that I've almost forgotten the reason I started seeking out places like r/gendercritical is because I wanted to be part of feminist spaces (or at least spaces that didn't tolerate overt misogyny.)

I have feminist issues that I would much rather focus on. But at the same time, it's become nearly impossible. Trans has taken over a lot of feminist discourse, and the "gender critical" spaces have become venting spaces and conservative hang outs. I'm not innocent in this. I've used my ovarit account pretty much solely for expressing my feelings on this topic and how illogical it all is. It's a safe and easy topic when I just want to vent.

And it's a self perpetuating cycle. The more that the space is used for venting, the more that people who want to vent are attracted to it. And venting is easier than action.

Anti-something internet communities all have the same problem. Being against something is a weak connection to have with people. It can be channeled into useful action with an immense amount of structure. But more often than not, it's the same pattern. There is an ever revolving door of users that feel relief because they found a community that approves of their unpopular belief. So they come in and start unloading what they've held in for a while. And then a lot of them move on, because they got what they needed. And the core users that stick around and dictate the flow of conversation tend to be the ones who the issue is their top priority.

And I'm just so tired. I don't have any in person communities. I don't have any online communities. I don't know how to take real action. And I know *be the change* I want to see. Make the topics I want to talk about. But here I am venting again.

Quote:Part of why I made this place is because I felt that there was so much focus on transgenderism on Ovarit. Like it just overwhelms everything.

Nothing made me cringe harder than when people made snide trans comments in topics completely unrelated to it where it was super inappropriate. Like under any of the posts about the oppression of women under the taliban, someone always has to bring up "Maybe they should identify as men" which... I get it but maybe this isn't the time??

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Clover
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Feb 7 2025, 12:37 PM
#4
(Feb 7 2025, 10:23 AM)Lemonade I have feminist issues that I would much rather focus on. But at the same time, it's become nearly impossible. Trans has taken over a lot of feminist discourse, and the "gender critical" spaces have become venting spaces and conservative hang outs. I'm not innocent in this. I've used my ovarit account pretty much solely for expressing my feelings on this topic and how illogical it all is. It's a safe and easy topic when I just want to vent.

And it's a self perpetuating cycle. The more that the space is used for venting, the more that people who want to vent are attracted to it. And venting is easier than action.

Anti-something internet communities all have the same problem. Being against something is a weak connection to have with people. It can be channeled into useful action with an immense amount of structure. But more often than not, it's the same pattern. There is an ever revolving door of users that feel relief because they found a community that approves of their unpopular belief. So they come in and start unloading what they've held in for a while. And then a lot of them move on, because they got what they needed. And the core users that stick around and dictate the flow of conversation tend to be the ones who the issue is their top priority.
That's a really good point. And yeah, it's easier to rally around tearing something down then building something up. I hadn't thought about how that affects the community over a long period of time, so that's interesting to reflect on, that eventually the people who want to build up are going to be drowned out by the constant influx of people who want to vent and/or tear down.

(Feb 7 2025, 10:23 AM)Lemonade And I'm just so tired. I don't have any in person communities. I don't have any online communities. I don't know how to take real action. And I know *be the change* I want to see. Make the topics I want to talk about. But here I am venting again.
🫂 It's tough. Because I think venting is valid. I mean, if we even think about the second wave "consciousness raising" (CR), they were essentially meetings where women could safely talk to one another and vent about what they experience as women. I wonder if the difference, and the issue, is that when it was in-person groups, the venting eventually ends. You build bonds, and then you can start working together on how to make a change. Whereas online, the venting could "never stop", there is no point where the group "stops venting", because "the group" is a 24/7 revolving door of new people who just realized the issue and want to vent. And it's not wrong for them to vent, it's just that we need to figure out how to handle this 24/7 revolving door of new people who realized injustice and want to vent, while also in parallel working on building up. I don't know if anyone has figured out a solution to this yet. So, in the meantime, I would say vent away lol. I think it's valid. (The nice thing about this old-school forum format is that we can always bump whatever we want, and that includes posts that focus on building up. All takes is one person posting an update or having a renewed interest in, like, a feminist organization to move that discussion back to the top, even if venting is going on at the same time.)

(Feb 7 2025, 10:23 AM)Lemonade
Quote:Part of why I made this place is because I felt that there was so much focus on transgenderism on Ovarit. Like it just overwhelms everything.

Nothing made me cringe harder than when people made snide trans comments in topics completely unrelated to it where it was super inappropriate. Like under any of the posts about the oppression of women under the taliban, someone always has to bring up "Maybe they should identify as men" which... I get it but maybe this isn't the time??
Okay, speaking about venting, this hits hard. Because recently Runawaysiren940 passed away, and I was shocked. I learned about it on Tumblr. I went to check Ovarit, and someone had already submitted a post about the news. I could not believe that the second highest upvoted comment was from a woman close to Brandi grieving because she and Brandi made plans to live together in the states, and that the number one highest upvoted comment was someone hijacking the news of her passing to remind us that transgender-identifying people are terrible. The points were "valid" and technically relevant, but seriously?! In a thread mourning the loss of a very young radical feminist woman?! Like, they couldn't give it a rest for one fucking thread out of all the goddamn threads on Ovarit where they can give us 24/7 reminders that "trans people suck"? I just couldn't believe it, I felt so sick and mad. Just... fucking ugh. Whatever.
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Clover
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Feb 7 2025, 12:37 PM #4

(Feb 7 2025, 10:23 AM)Lemonade I have feminist issues that I would much rather focus on. But at the same time, it's become nearly impossible. Trans has taken over a lot of feminist discourse, and the "gender critical" spaces have become venting spaces and conservative hang outs. I'm not innocent in this. I've used my ovarit account pretty much solely for expressing my feelings on this topic and how illogical it all is. It's a safe and easy topic when I just want to vent.

And it's a self perpetuating cycle. The more that the space is used for venting, the more that people who want to vent are attracted to it. And venting is easier than action.

Anti-something internet communities all have the same problem. Being against something is a weak connection to have with people. It can be channeled into useful action with an immense amount of structure. But more often than not, it's the same pattern. There is an ever revolving door of users that feel relief because they found a community that approves of their unpopular belief. So they come in and start unloading what they've held in for a while. And then a lot of them move on, because they got what they needed. And the core users that stick around and dictate the flow of conversation tend to be the ones who the issue is their top priority.
That's a really good point. And yeah, it's easier to rally around tearing something down then building something up. I hadn't thought about how that affects the community over a long period of time, so that's interesting to reflect on, that eventually the people who want to build up are going to be drowned out by the constant influx of people who want to vent and/or tear down.

(Feb 7 2025, 10:23 AM)Lemonade And I'm just so tired. I don't have any in person communities. I don't have any online communities. I don't know how to take real action. And I know *be the change* I want to see. Make the topics I want to talk about. But here I am venting again.
🫂 It's tough. Because I think venting is valid. I mean, if we even think about the second wave "consciousness raising" (CR), they were essentially meetings where women could safely talk to one another and vent about what they experience as women. I wonder if the difference, and the issue, is that when it was in-person groups, the venting eventually ends. You build bonds, and then you can start working together on how to make a change. Whereas online, the venting could "never stop", there is no point where the group "stops venting", because "the group" is a 24/7 revolving door of new people who just realized the issue and want to vent. And it's not wrong for them to vent, it's just that we need to figure out how to handle this 24/7 revolving door of new people who realized injustice and want to vent, while also in parallel working on building up. I don't know if anyone has figured out a solution to this yet. So, in the meantime, I would say vent away lol. I think it's valid. (The nice thing about this old-school forum format is that we can always bump whatever we want, and that includes posts that focus on building up. All takes is one person posting an update or having a renewed interest in, like, a feminist organization to move that discussion back to the top, even if venting is going on at the same time.)

(Feb 7 2025, 10:23 AM)Lemonade
Quote:Part of why I made this place is because I felt that there was so much focus on transgenderism on Ovarit. Like it just overwhelms everything.

Nothing made me cringe harder than when people made snide trans comments in topics completely unrelated to it where it was super inappropriate. Like under any of the posts about the oppression of women under the taliban, someone always has to bring up "Maybe they should identify as men" which... I get it but maybe this isn't the time??
Okay, speaking about venting, this hits hard. Because recently Runawaysiren940 passed away, and I was shocked. I learned about it on Tumblr. I went to check Ovarit, and someone had already submitted a post about the news. I could not believe that the second highest upvoted comment was from a woman close to Brandi grieving because she and Brandi made plans to live together in the states, and that the number one highest upvoted comment was someone hijacking the news of her passing to remind us that transgender-identifying people are terrible. The points were "valid" and technically relevant, but seriously?! In a thread mourning the loss of a very young radical feminist woman?! Like, they couldn't give it a rest for one fucking thread out of all the goddamn threads on Ovarit where they can give us 24/7 reminders that "trans people suck"? I just couldn't believe it, I felt so sick and mad. Just... fucking ugh. Whatever.

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komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
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Feb 7 2025, 1:24 PM
#5
Adding on to what Clover said, typical Internet community dynamics come into play here as well. Any community which has karma or likes or any system which allows people to collect meaningless Internet points will have people focused on amassing as many of those points as they can, and those people will shape discourse to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Short, inflammatory posts that get people all riled up are best. Longer Gish-gallop-style posts are also good because they're overwhelming, may have a veneer of being authoritative, and are hard to respond to, so people just end up clicking "upvote."

That's why, even though it's janky sometimes, I greatly appreciate the choice to run CH without an algorithm deciding what's "hot" or worth reading. We, the users, decide what's interesting or worthy of discussion by making the effort to reply to it. You also can't express disagreement with someone just by clicking a button; you have to use your words. And because threads are just sorted chronologically by activity, your conversation with someone doesn't get disappeared into the void, so they can't just say inflammatory things to you and have it go unnoticed. This has happened to me on Ovarit and I've also watched it happen to other women. You may take some time to formulate a thoughtful reply to some right-wing bullshit. By that time, the post has already fallen off the front page, so the thread is no longer being actively visited. The person you're replying to is thus emboldened to say any dumb shit they want without anyone else from the community stepping in. And since the mods are asleep at the wheel, you end up feeling like you're locked in a padded room with an asshole. 🙄

Coming back to Elsacat's original post, I think it's good for women who used to be unquestioning trans allies to go through a period of questioning trans and gender identity. I certainly went through that myself, and I don't think it was a bad thing that my thoughts were occupied with essentially deprogramming from cult beliefs. The issue is what comes afterwards, how you incorporate those realizations into the rest of your belief system, and how you decide to act on them. If it helps, we can look on the bright side and say that we're all here 'cause we agree on centering women, not elevating anti-trans. :D Here we can say fuck all the noise, and focus our politics and energy on what's important to us.
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komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
Feb 7 2025, 1:24 PM #5

Adding on to what Clover said, typical Internet community dynamics come into play here as well. Any community which has karma or likes or any system which allows people to collect meaningless Internet points will have people focused on amassing as many of those points as they can, and those people will shape discourse to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Short, inflammatory posts that get people all riled up are best. Longer Gish-gallop-style posts are also good because they're overwhelming, may have a veneer of being authoritative, and are hard to respond to, so people just end up clicking "upvote."

That's why, even though it's janky sometimes, I greatly appreciate the choice to run CH without an algorithm deciding what's "hot" or worth reading. We, the users, decide what's interesting or worthy of discussion by making the effort to reply to it. You also can't express disagreement with someone just by clicking a button; you have to use your words. And because threads are just sorted chronologically by activity, your conversation with someone doesn't get disappeared into the void, so they can't just say inflammatory things to you and have it go unnoticed. This has happened to me on Ovarit and I've also watched it happen to other women. You may take some time to formulate a thoughtful reply to some right-wing bullshit. By that time, the post has already fallen off the front page, so the thread is no longer being actively visited. The person you're replying to is thus emboldened to say any dumb shit they want without anyone else from the community stepping in. And since the mods are asleep at the wheel, you end up feeling like you're locked in a padded room with an asshole. 🙄

Coming back to Elsacat's original post, I think it's good for women who used to be unquestioning trans allies to go through a period of questioning trans and gender identity. I certainly went through that myself, and I don't think it was a bad thing that my thoughts were occupied with essentially deprogramming from cult beliefs. The issue is what comes afterwards, how you incorporate those realizations into the rest of your belief system, and how you decide to act on them. If it helps, we can look on the bright side and say that we're all here 'cause we agree on centering women, not elevating anti-trans. :D Here we can say fuck all the noise, and focus our politics and energy on what's important to us.

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ShameMustChangeSides
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Feb 8 2025, 5:01 PM
#6
(Feb 7 2025, 1:24 PM)komorebi And because threads are just sorted chronologically by activity, your conversation with someone doesn't get disappeared into the void, so they can't just say inflammatory things to you and have it go unnoticed. This has happened to me on Ovarit and I've also watched it happen to other women. You may take some time to formulate a thoughtful reply to some right-wing bullshit. By that time, the post has already fallen off the front page, so the thread is no longer being actively visited. The person you're replying to is thus emboldened to say any dumb shit they want without anyone else from the community stepping in. And since the mods are asleep at the wheel, you end up feeling like you're locked in a padded room with an asshole. 🙄

Omg that's how I felt on that stupid "true meaning of GNC" post on Ovarit. The OP of that post was such an asshole but everyone just kind of tuned out before long.
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ShameMustChangeSides
Feb 8 2025, 5:01 PM #6

(Feb 7 2025, 1:24 PM)komorebi And because threads are just sorted chronologically by activity, your conversation with someone doesn't get disappeared into the void, so they can't just say inflammatory things to you and have it go unnoticed. This has happened to me on Ovarit and I've also watched it happen to other women. You may take some time to formulate a thoughtful reply to some right-wing bullshit. By that time, the post has already fallen off the front page, so the thread is no longer being actively visited. The person you're replying to is thus emboldened to say any dumb shit they want without anyone else from the community stepping in. And since the mods are asleep at the wheel, you end up feeling like you're locked in a padded room with an asshole. 🙄

Omg that's how I felt on that stupid "true meaning of GNC" post on Ovarit. The OP of that post was such an asshole but everyone just kind of tuned out before long.

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Yozakura
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Feb 8 2025, 5:32 PM
#7
(Feb 6 2025, 1:36 PM)Clover Part of why I made this place is because I felt that there was so much focus on transgenderism on Ovarit. Like it just overwhelms everything. (When, when you look at all the topics that radical feminism encompasses, being gender critical is only one part of that.) It's kind of funny when you talk about "peak peak trans", because a lot of people talk about how they were sick of trans being shoved in their faces everywhere lol. The irony.

Wow, I wasn't the only one who thought this...It's important to discuss transgenderism but when that becomes the only topic it can become somewhat overwhelming...I'm glad that more people are hitting peak trans though!
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Yozakura
Feb 8 2025, 5:32 PM #7

(Feb 6 2025, 1:36 PM)Clover Part of why I made this place is because I felt that there was so much focus on transgenderism on Ovarit. Like it just overwhelms everything. (When, when you look at all the topics that radical feminism encompasses, being gender critical is only one part of that.) It's kind of funny when you talk about "peak peak trans", because a lot of people talk about how they were sick of trans being shoved in their faces everywhere lol. The irony.

Wow, I wasn't the only one who thought this...It's important to discuss transgenderism but when that becomes the only topic it can become somewhat overwhelming...I'm glad that more people are hitting peak trans though!

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