What is your opinion on Kellie Jay Keen?

cloven hooves The Personal Is Political Women's Rights What is your opinion on Kellie Jay Keen?

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wormwood

Jan 29 2025, 11:56 PM

#21

(Jan 29 2025, 11:19 PM)komorebi
(Jan 29 2025, 10:13 PM)wormwood Hey, no need to be sorry. And I agree it’s important to think about cooperation with non-feminist groups, and how it works for or against feminist goals. My observation of Keen suggests not working with non feminists at all if it can be avoided, and if it can’t, limiting the time and degree of cooperation. Frankly, right now in the U.S., where I assume most of you to be, my advice would be to not work with the Right at all, but I can see limited cooperation with the gender crowd.
I was talking about A Woman’s Place, pretty much the gender critical (I know, I know) movement in the U.K. at the time. I’ll post the site in the Library, because I really think the work was exemplary, and there are many interesting panels and talks. It’s a measure of Keen’s success that you’ve heard of her and not them, because they are the ones who did the work. It’s not “my group” except that I agreed with them, contributing to crowdfunders, signing petitions, and generally engaging and encouraging their efforts at a time when it was absolutely *not done* to not fawn over men who called themselves women.
Keen came at the same topic, drew publicity, became involved with the group after its work was well underway, worked with them a bit, tried to take over, left in a snit after they said no to her, spend years sneering at them as over-educated purists who didn’t listen to conservative women (sound familiar?) and has apparently erased their memory, internationally anyway.
She hindered the group and poisoned the well, but they won victories for women without her.

(EDIT: I overstated “worked with them a bit, tried to take over” - I do feel she tried to take over the movement, and to some extent succeeded, but WPUK did their best to disassociate themselves from her racism very early on. Please see this 2018 statement https://womansplaceuk.org/2018/05/30/changes-to-cornwall-meeting/ and the follow-up from 2022 https://womansplaceuk.org/2022/06/22/womans-place-and-posie-parker/)

I feel like you're spilling some tea here. I didn't know all this!

I guess I am spilling the tea.

Please see my edits of the post you’re replying to, which now have links to what A Woman’s Place UK has publicly stated about Kellie-Jay Keen. I was broadly right, but it’s important to be accurate, and I don’t want to mislead anyone. This is what comes of me commenting at 6 AM my time, while brewing my first coffee.

Quite a lot of it was discussed online at the time, and there were many less careful statements about her involvement if you were following British feminists in 2018/2022ish online - which is where I formed my impressions.
I’m not telling you anything that’s secret, though I concede it would take trawling through blog archives and old Twitter conversations to unearth it.

Edited Jan 30 2025, 12:37 AM by wormwood. Edit Reason: Additional information:

wormwood

Jan 29 2025, 11:56 PM #21

(Jan 29 2025, 11:19 PM)komorebi
(Jan 29 2025, 10:13 PM)wormwood Hey, no need to be sorry. And I agree it’s important to think about cooperation with non-feminist groups, and how it works for or against feminist goals. My observation of Keen suggests not working with non feminists at all if it can be avoided, and if it can’t, limiting the time and degree of cooperation. Frankly, right now in the U.S., where I assume most of you to be, my advice would be to not work with the Right at all, but I can see limited cooperation with the gender crowd.
I was talking about A Woman’s Place, pretty much the gender critical (I know, I know) movement in the U.K. at the time. I’ll post the site in the Library, because I really think the work was exemplary, and there are many interesting panels and talks. It’s a measure of Keen’s success that you’ve heard of her and not them, because they are the ones who did the work. It’s not “my group” except that I agreed with them, contributing to crowdfunders, signing petitions, and generally engaging and encouraging their efforts at a time when it was absolutely *not done* to not fawn over men who called themselves women.
Keen came at the same topic, drew publicity, became involved with the group after its work was well underway, worked with them a bit, tried to take over, left in a snit after they said no to her, spend years sneering at them as over-educated purists who didn’t listen to conservative women (sound familiar?) and has apparently erased their memory, internationally anyway.
She hindered the group and poisoned the well, but they won victories for women without her.

(EDIT: I overstated “worked with them a bit, tried to take over” - I do feel she tried to take over the movement, and to some extent succeeded, but WPUK did their best to disassociate themselves from her racism very early on. Please see this 2018 statement https://womansplaceuk.org/2018/05/30/changes-to-cornwall-meeting/ and the follow-up from 2022 https://womansplaceuk.org/2022/06/22/womans-place-and-posie-parker/)

I feel like you're spilling some tea here. I didn't know all this!

drdee

Jan 30 2025, 12:51 AM

#22

(Jan 29 2025, 10:47 PM)Iota Aurigae
Quote:first, she seems to be a marketing genius; she can really capture a 'vibe' and get it out there

Which is, I think, why she set up her shop, too. And to grift, of course.

And she used that marketing genius to 'raise awareness' of what 'trans' really means in terms of harm to women and children. IIRC she's a SAHM, and her husband is a contractor? and they're reasonably well off; not sure why people seem to believe she's actually making so much money selling t-shirts and stickers (which are part of her marketing campaign). (Whether she's unethically using money raised by her campaign for personal benefit is another question, which I don't know the answer to.)

drdee

Jan 30 2025, 12:51 AM #22

(Jan 29 2025, 10:47 PM)Iota Aurigae
Quote:first, she seems to be a marketing genius; she can really capture a 'vibe' and get it out there

Which is, I think, why she set up her shop, too. And to grift, of course.

Elsacat

155

Jan 30 2025, 11:01 AM

#23

A conservative launching themselves from a non-conservative platform and riding the publicity to fame and accolades? That never happens!

KJK has done some good, put herself out there on the front lines, but I didn't know all the stuff re: her and A Woman's Place. That changes my view. I don't like her conservatism, surprise surprise. Also, it's hard for me not to resent anyone, no matter where they are on the sociopolitical spectrum, who helps brand trans skepticism/criticism as "right-wing" or "conservative" when in most cases, it clearly isn't. Common sense isn't left or right.

Elsacat

Jan 30 2025, 11:01 AM #23

Iota Aurigae

Jan 30 2025, 2:13 PM

#24

(Jan 29 2025, 11:19 PM)komorebi
(Jan 29 2025, 10:13 PM)wormwood Hey, no need to be sorry. And I agree it’s important to think about cooperation with non-feminist groups, and how it works for or against feminist goals. My observation of Keen suggests not working with non feminists at all if it can be avoided, and if it can’t, limiting the time and degree of cooperation. Frankly, right now in the U.S., where I assume most of you to be, my advice would be to not work with the Right at all, but I can see limited cooperation with the gender crowd.

I was talking about A Woman’s Place, pretty much the gender critical (I know, I know) movement in the U.K. at the time. I’ll post the site in the Library, because I really think the work was exemplary, and there are many interesting panels and talks. It’s a measure of Keen’s success that you’ve heard of her and not them, because they are the ones who did the work. It’s not “my group” except that I agreed with them, contributing to crowdfunders, signing petitions, and generally engaging and encouraging their efforts at a time when it was absolutely *not done* to not fawn over men who called themselves women.

Keen came at the same topic, drew publicity, became involved with the group after its work was well underway, worked with them a bit, tried to take over, left in a snit after they said no to her, spend years sneering at them as over-educated purists who didn’t listen to conservative women (sound familiar?) and has apparently erased their memory, internationally anyway.

She hindered the group and poisoned the well, but they won victories for women without her.

(edited for clarity and to expand a bit)

I feel like you're spilling some tea here. I didn't know all this!

I vaguely remember a statement KJK made a few years ago wherein she railed against them. I knew she had a falling out with them but I didn't know the context of that falling out.

Iota Aurigae

Jan 30 2025, 2:13 PM #24

(Jan 29 2025, 11:19 PM)komorebi
(Jan 29 2025, 10:13 PM)wormwood Hey, no need to be sorry. And I agree it’s important to think about cooperation with non-feminist groups, and how it works for or against feminist goals. My observation of Keen suggests not working with non feminists at all if it can be avoided, and if it can’t, limiting the time and degree of cooperation. Frankly, right now in the U.S., where I assume most of you to be, my advice would be to not work with the Right at all, but I can see limited cooperation with the gender crowd.

I was talking about A Woman’s Place, pretty much the gender critical (I know, I know) movement in the U.K. at the time. I’ll post the site in the Library, because I really think the work was exemplary, and there are many interesting panels and talks. It’s a measure of Keen’s success that you’ve heard of her and not them, because they are the ones who did the work. It’s not “my group” except that I agreed with them, contributing to crowdfunders, signing petitions, and generally engaging and encouraging their efforts at a time when it was absolutely *not done* to not fawn over men who called themselves women.

Keen came at the same topic, drew publicity, became involved with the group after its work was well underway, worked with them a bit, tried to take over, left in a snit after they said no to her, spend years sneering at them as over-educated purists who didn’t listen to conservative women (sound familiar?) and has apparently erased their memory, internationally anyway.

She hindered the group and poisoned the well, but they won victories for women without her.

(edited for clarity and to expand a bit)

I feel like you're spilling some tea here. I didn't know all this!

I vaguely remember a statement KJK made a few years ago wherein she railed against them. I knew she had a falling out with them but I didn't know the context of that falling out.

ExitStageLeft

Jan 31 2025, 12:09 PM

#25

(Jan 28 2025, 11:22 PM)Colibri
(Jan 28 2025, 10:24 PM)Iota Aurigae Then I began learning about her right-wing ties, and concerns about her Let Women Speak tour of the US, Australia, etc being funded by conservatives. The final straw was last summer, when she downplayed the January 6th domestic terrorist attack on the Capitol. I'm not a fan of hers by any means now.

Yikes, I didn’t know either of those things. I think she’s a great speaker, and I've really admired the way she cuts through TRA arguments and exposes how absurd they are, but the final thing for me was when she said something like, “Trump is the only hope for the world.”

There's something especially offputing about people who praise Trump and aren't even American. When I lived in Europe, I met several people (mostly men) who actually described themselves as Republicans. In many places, the term 'Republican' means something completely different but they were basing their political identity on a political party in a country that they didn't even live in.

ExitStageLeft

Jan 31 2025, 12:09 PM #25

(Jan 28 2025, 11:22 PM)Colibri
(Jan 28 2025, 10:24 PM)Iota Aurigae Then I began learning about her right-wing ties, and concerns about her Let Women Speak tour of the US, Australia, etc being funded by conservatives. The final straw was last summer, when she downplayed the January 6th domestic terrorist attack on the Capitol. I'm not a fan of hers by any means now.

Yikes, I didn’t know either of those things. I think she’s a great speaker, and I've really admired the way she cuts through TRA arguments and exposes how absurd they are, but the final thing for me was when she said something like, “Trump is the only hope for the world.”

YesYourNigel

114

Feb 9 2025, 9:21 PM

#26

(Jan 31 2025, 12:09 PM)ExitStageLeft There's something especially offputing about people who praise Trump and aren't even American.

To a lot of non-Americans, Trump represents the "common sense" patriarchal (and in white-majority countries, white supremacist) values. Many non-Americans like him because he's on the level of backwardness that is the norm in their country. It gets weird when they both worship him for that, but also still have to dislike him because America=bad.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

YesYourNigel

Feb 9 2025, 9:21 PM #26

(Jan 31 2025, 12:09 PM)ExitStageLeft There's something especially offputing about people who praise Trump and aren't even American.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

wormwood

Feb 9 2025, 10:26 PM

#27

(Feb 9 2025, 9:21 PM)YesYourNigel
(Jan 31 2025, 12:09 PM)ExitStageLeft There's something especially offputing about people who praise Trump and aren't even American.
To a lot of non-Americans, Trump represents the "common sense" patriarchal (and in white-majority countries, white supremacist) values. Many non-Americans like him because he's on the level of backwardness that is the norm in their country. It gets weird when they both worship him for that, but also still have to dislike him because America=bad.

I’ve spoken to several Trump-praisers in the European country where I live and read many more online, and they broadly fall into two categories, with some overlap between them:

Critical of U.S. interventionism, both military and humanitarian, and happy it will end. (this type are also often vaccine deniers)

Or

Strongly racist, anti-immigrant, misogynist, or ultra-capitalist.

Neither of these is exactly an expression of the traditional “level of backwardness” in my country (a phrase to which I take some exception).

It’s more a product of resentment of being bullied financially, politically, and culturally, often with significant condescension and hypocrisy, since the Second World War on the one hand (a resentment shared by many countries where the CIA and the almighty dollar have been active, and which I to some extent share despite also being a U.S. left-liberal voter who loathes Trumpism), in the service of the Cold War, American business interests, or liberal interventionism.

And on the other hand, a reactionary anti-immigrant and anti-liberal backlash against globalisation, often fuelled by Russian hard right actors and/or U.S. evangelicals, and quite distinct from the hidebound religiosity of even our very ugliest traditional conservatives, at least originally, though in the internet generation they are starting to blend.

Edited Feb 9 2025, 10:44 PM by wormwood.

wormwood

Feb 9 2025, 10:26 PM #27

(Feb 9 2025, 9:21 PM)YesYourNigel
(Jan 31 2025, 12:09 PM)ExitStageLeft There's something especially offputing about people who praise Trump and aren't even American.
To a lot of non-Americans, Trump represents the "common sense" patriarchal (and in white-majority countries, white supremacist) values. Many non-Americans like him because he's on the level of backwardness that is the norm in their country. It gets weird when they both worship him for that, but also still have to dislike him because America=bad.

Elsacat

155

Feb 10 2025, 9:31 AM

#28

Anyone who's tired of U.S. interventionism and wants it to end shouldn't be happy that the current regime talks about making Canada a state, as well as taking over Greenland, Panama, and Gaza. Interventionism and interference are alive and well.

Elsacat

Feb 10 2025, 9:31 AM #28

YesYourNigel

114

Feb 10 2025, 9:50 AM

#29

(Feb 9 2025, 10:26 PM)wormwood Critical of U.S. interventionism, both military and humanitarian, and happy it will end. (this type are also often vaccine deniers)

Do you mean the general conspiracy theory association with anti-US-interventionism? I find that this tends to be the melting pot of atheist and Christian conservatives, where both come together on the basis of a distrust of the state, with atheists mainly motivated by typical male edgelordiness and jealousy of authority ("it's not fair that those guys have all this stuff when it should be ME!"), and for Christians it results from pushback against secularisation (in some cases due to a communist background) and openness towards weird new-agey beliefs. I think both crowds get a lot of ego stroking for not being "sheeple", which makes them gravitate towards conspiracy theories and especially any that would feed into that persecution complex.

Quote:quite distinct from the hidebound religiosity of even our very ugliest traditional conservatives, at least originally, though in the internet generation they are starting to blend.

Why do you think they're different? There is a distinct association between Christianity and nationalism in most places, especially the less developed ones, even if the exact agenda might differ a little due to political and legal landscapes. The state power differences inform some of it, but often it comes down to "They shouldn't be running things, it should be us/big brother Russia instead!"-jealousy. A lot of anti-USA sentiment isn't due to genuine grievances with US interventionism and political meddling, but rather petty jabs at how "stupid" and "hypocritical" they are, ironically coming from countries with lower rates of education, high religiousity and where open contempt of women and minorities is normal. And USA isn't even that well-developed in that area (hence Trump) but their backwardness at least causes controversy, instead of being "business as usual". Which I imagine only fuels the persecution complex more compared to some developed country where progressive views are the norm - "Look at those fellow Christians, the bastions of religious values in the US, being persecuted!". Also the US controls most pop culture that reaches these countries, which pushes more liberal values onto them and makes it feel like a terrible possibility compared to their Christian norms.

I guess the question is whether this is a flanderised mass-appeal nationalistic version of genuine US criticisms, or if the two sentiments developed separately, aka one side being anti-US for ethical, anti-war reasons, and the other just being anti-US because they're not "on our side" nor as morally backwards as they are (these tend to be the warmongering pro-Russia crowds).

Quote:Neither of these is exactly an expression of the traditional “level of backwardness” in my country (a phrase to which I take some exception).

How is open racism and misogyny not the most standard-issue manifestation of backwardness? More religiously motivated and less educated countries will feel at the very least protective of their regressive values, if not aggressively pushing for them.

Trump politicians are a dime-a-dozen where I live. Misogynistic and racist statements from politicians, especially in private but also in public, do not result in much controversy here, unless we're talking about "crazy militant radical" feminist groups. It's taken for granted that the male politicians are racist rapey misogynists because they're men, and if they're not, it's because they're especially saintly or refined. Hell, fights among politicians in parliaments are relatively common in less developed countries because the men running things are backwards animals.

Edited Feb 10 2025, 11:49 AM by YesYourNigel.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

YesYourNigel

Feb 10 2025, 9:50 AM #29

(Feb 9 2025, 10:26 PM)wormwood Critical of U.S. interventionism, both military and humanitarian, and happy it will end. (this type are also often vaccine deniers)

Quote:quite distinct from the hidebound religiosity of even our very ugliest traditional conservatives, at least originally, though in the internet generation they are starting to blend.

Quote:Neither of these is exactly an expression of the traditional “level of backwardness” in my country (a phrase to which I take some exception).

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

wormwood

Feb 10 2025, 9:57 AM

#30

(Feb 10 2025, 9:31 AM)Elsacat Anyone who's tired of U.S. interventionism and wants it to end shouldn't be happy that the current regime talks about making Canada a state, as well as taking over Greenland, Panama, and Gaza. Interventionism and interference are alive and well.

Indeed. They fell for the propaganda that was aimed at them, that the end of NATO would be a good thing, and the hypocrisy of *liberal* interventionism was the worst possible variant of US power.

wormwood

Feb 10 2025, 9:57 AM #30

(Feb 10 2025, 9:31 AM)Elsacat Anyone who's tired of U.S. interventionism and wants it to end shouldn't be happy that the current regime talks about making Canada a state, as well as taking over Greenland, Panama, and Gaza. Interventionism and interference are alive and well.

Indeed. They fell for the propaganda that was aimed at them, that the end of NATO would be a good thing, and the hypocrisy of *liberal* interventionism was the worst possible variant of US power.

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