we can’t really talk about how to liberate women until we know what a society where women are free looks like
we can’t really talk about how to liberate women until we know what a society where women are free looks like
and this is something lacking in all feminist writing i’ve read so far. there’s an assumption that we all know what it is we’re working toward. But it’s never defined or fleshed out. I mean, most feminist writing don’t even explicitly state that we are working towards the emancipation of women, the liberation of women. And this is partly why we’ve fallen into the weaksauce concept of ‘equality’ with men.
so, to know how to get there, we’ve gotta talk about what ‘there’ is. What does the emancipation of women look like? how does that affect the social organization? the economic sphere? the organization of labor? the organizaiton of land?
if the family unit is the instrument of the oppression of women, then what is the basic economic/social unit? is it the neoliberal view of every man for himself? is it the collectivist view of small communes with shared finances? What economic/social model exactly best facilitates the freedom of women? This needs to be broadly understood, so we know what the goal is, so we know how to best work towards it.
feministdragon
Oct 23 2024, 2:42 AM #1I know it’s odd to say, but we can’t really talk about how to liberate women until we know what a society where women are free looks like. Like, you can’t know how to get there until you know where there is.
and this is something lacking in all feminist writing i’ve read so far. there’s an assumption that we all know what it is we’re working toward. But it’s never defined or fleshed out. I mean, most feminist writing don’t even explicitly state that we are working towards the emancipation of women, the liberation of women. And this is partly why we’ve fallen into the weaksauce concept of ‘equality’ with men.
so, to know how to get there, we’ve gotta talk about what ‘there’ is. What does the emancipation of women look like? how does that affect the social organization? the economic sphere? the organization of labor? the organizaiton of land?
if the family unit is the instrument of the oppression of women, then what is the basic economic/social unit? is it the neoliberal view of every man for himself? is it the collectivist view of small communes with shared finances? What economic/social model exactly best facilitates the freedom of women? This needs to be broadly understood, so we know what the goal is, so we know how to best work towards it.
Quote:we don't know what that looks like because there hasn't been a society where women were liberated since before written history.
On one hand, it makes sense to have some objectives. On the other hand, if those objectives are too specific then they will likely include traps that we have yet to observe. We thought women would be liberated with the right to vote. We weren't. We thought women could get equal jobs if we had equal access to education. That didn't happen. etc. etc. The women in the west are objectified while the women in the middle east are forced to cover up. These are two sides of the same coin.
She also shared this quote from Marilyn Frye, which your post reminded her of:
Marilyn Frye The forces which we want to imagine ourselves free of are a guide to what we might be when free of them. They mark the shape they mold us to, but they also suggest by implication the shapes we might have been without that molding. One can guess something of the magnitude and direction of the tendencies the thing would exhibit when free by attending to the magnitudes and directions of the forces required to confine and shape it. For instance, much pressure is applied at the point of our verbal behavior, enforcing silence or limiting our speech. One can reason that without that force we might show ourselves to be loquacious and perhaps prone to oratory, not to mention prone to saying things unpleasant to male ears. The threat of rape is a force of great magnitude which is, among other things, applied against our movement about the cities, towns, and countryside. The implication is that without it a great many women might prove to be very prone to nomadic lives of exploration and adventure - why else should so much force be required to keep us at home?
But to speak most generally: the forces of men's material and perceptual violence mold Woman to dependence upon Man, in every meaning of 'dependence': contingent upon; conditional upon; necessitated by; defined in terms of; incomplete or unreal without; requiring the support or assistance of; being a subordinate part of; being an appurtenance to.
Dependence is forced upon us. It is not rash to speculate that without this force, much, most or all of what most or all of us are and do would not be contingent upon, conditional upon, necessitated by, or subordinate to any man or what belongs to or pertains to a man, men or masculinity. What we are and how we are, or what we would be and how we would be if not molded by the arrogant eye, is: not molded to man, not dependent.
Those are good questions. I shared this thread in a feminist Discord server I'm in and one woman has this to say:
Quote:we don't know what that looks like because there hasn't been a society where women were liberated since before written history.
On one hand, it makes sense to have some objectives. On the other hand, if those objectives are too specific then they will likely include traps that we have yet to observe. We thought women would be liberated with the right to vote. We weren't. We thought women could get equal jobs if we had equal access to education. That didn't happen. etc. etc. The women in the west are objectified while the women in the middle east are forced to cover up. These are two sides of the same coin.
She also shared this quote from Marilyn Frye, which your post reminded her of:
Marilyn Frye The forces which we want to imagine ourselves free of are a guide to what we might be when free of them. They mark the shape they mold us to, but they also suggest by implication the shapes we might have been without that molding. One can guess something of the magnitude and direction of the tendencies the thing would exhibit when free by attending to the magnitudes and directions of the forces required to confine and shape it. For instance, much pressure is applied at the point of our verbal behavior, enforcing silence or limiting our speech. One can reason that without that force we might show ourselves to be loquacious and perhaps prone to oratory, not to mention prone to saying things unpleasant to male ears. The threat of rape is a force of great magnitude which is, among other things, applied against our movement about the cities, towns, and countryside. The implication is that without it a great many women might prove to be very prone to nomadic lives of exploration and adventure - why else should so much force be required to keep us at home?
But to speak most generally: the forces of men's material and perceptual violence mold Woman to dependence upon Man, in every meaning of 'dependence': contingent upon; conditional upon; necessitated by; defined in terms of; incomplete or unreal without; requiring the support or assistance of; being a subordinate part of; being an appurtenance to.
Dependence is forced upon us. It is not rash to speculate that without this force, much, most or all of what most or all of us are and do would not be contingent upon, conditional upon, necessitated by, or subordinate to any man or what belongs to or pertains to a man, men or masculinity. What we are and how we are, or what we would be and how we would be if not molded by the arrogant eye, is: not molded to man, not dependent.
For instance, taking one things like women's right to abortion. Many people still believe a fetus has more rights than the woman who is forced to carry it. This type of misogyny runs deep. What would a world look like where each woman was fully allowed to decide whether or not she carries a child, with no exceptions? A world where people just accept that each woman has a right to decide what her pregnancy means to her. There are no protesters at abortion clinics, there are no fake crisis pregnancy centers to deceive women who need an abortion, there are no men guilting women into keeping a pregnancy with them (baby trapping), and so on. And reproductive freedom is only one facet of women's liberation.
There are many others. How much do we "put effort into our appearance" because of misogyny? How much do we self-sacrifice due to misogyny? How much do we self-censor due to misogyny? How much are we afraid to do due to misogyny?
Just A Girl — No Doubt The moment that I step outside
So many reasons for me to run and hide
I can't do the little things I hold so dear
'Cause it's all those little things that I fear
This song describes what Marilyn Frye wrote about in her quote from my post above. So much of being a woman is currently defined by men and the patriarchal world they've created, so much so, we cannot do things like explore or be nomads or lone travelers without risking our lives or being raped.
Radical feminism attempts to get to the root of the issue, the oppression of the female sex, but this has been going on for millennia. I picture the heart of the root buried and "protected" by thousands and thousands of thorny vines. We just need to keep hacking away at it. Each piece we cut off brings more light and clarity, but it's hard to visualize it until we put in the work.
As for my thoughts, I truly do not know. I think it's one of those things that we can't visualize, it's like a "journey" that we won't know what it looks like until we get there. There might not be a "final destination " even, perhaps we might always have to work towards keeping our liberation once we achieve it? Like removing invasive vines from strangling a forest. I think the change towards women's liberation will happen very slowly. It's like attempting to predict what the canyon the river carves will look like in thousands of years.
For instance, taking one things like women's right to abortion. Many people still believe a fetus has more rights than the woman who is forced to carry it. This type of misogyny runs deep. What would a world look like where each woman was fully allowed to decide whether or not she carries a child, with no exceptions? A world where people just accept that each woman has a right to decide what her pregnancy means to her. There are no protesters at abortion clinics, there are no fake crisis pregnancy centers to deceive women who need an abortion, there are no men guilting women into keeping a pregnancy with them (baby trapping), and so on. And reproductive freedom is only one facet of women's liberation.
There are many others. How much do we "put effort into our appearance" because of misogyny? How much do we self-sacrifice due to misogyny? How much do we self-censor due to misogyny? How much are we afraid to do due to misogyny?
Just A Girl — No Doubt The moment that I step outside
So many reasons for me to run and hide
I can't do the little things I hold so dear
'Cause it's all those little things that I fear
This song describes what Marilyn Frye wrote about in her quote from my post above. So much of being a woman is currently defined by men and the patriarchal world they've created, so much so, we cannot do things like explore or be nomads or lone travelers without risking our lives or being raped.
Radical feminism attempts to get to the root of the issue, the oppression of the female sex, but this has been going on for millennia. I picture the heart of the root buried and "protected" by thousands and thousands of thorny vines. We just need to keep hacking away at it. Each piece we cut off brings more light and clarity, but it's hard to visualize it until we put in the work.
"It's just a feeling..... It's just a feeling.
I'll tell you what freedom is to me! No fear! I mean really, no fear!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3YFrSlfZ9A
feministdragon
Oct 27 2024, 7:33 PM #4regarding what you said, "How much are we afraid to do due to misogyny?", Here's Nina Simone on freedom:
"It's just a feeling..... It's just a feeling.
I'll tell you what freedom is to me! No fear! I mean really, no fear!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3YFrSlfZ9A
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