clovenhooves The Personal Is Political Gender Critical Gender Nonconformity How to see gender-nonconformity in men when it comes across as a fetish?

How to see gender-nonconformity in men when it comes across as a fetish?

How to see gender-nonconformity in men when it comes across as a fetish?

 
Mar 17 2025, 7:01 AM
#1
I feel like it's a bit of a double bind. GNC is good and well, but often when I do see GNC males it feels like a fetish. Recently I've seen a man with short hair and men's clothes wear fishnets and heels, another one was dressed in red and pink women's clothing with a beard, and I regularly see the pantyhose/fishnet dude with red heels... Always the same. Both of them did not come across as making a fashion or gender statement, but as creeps and possibly narcissists trying to draw attention to themselves.

There're times where GNC in males seems fitting and non-creepy, like alternative styles or whatever, but I get the distinct feeling that a bunch of them definitely are inappropriate and they give me the ick. 

I feel like there's a difference between male GNC in theory and male GNC in practical reality: gross creepy men ruining everything. I don't like paticipating in someone's fetish. How do you see this?
Wandering_Feminist56
Mar 17 2025, 7:01 AM #1

I feel like it's a bit of a double bind. GNC is good and well, but often when I do see GNC males it feels like a fetish. Recently I've seen a man with short hair and men's clothes wear fishnets and heels, another one was dressed in red and pink women's clothing with a beard, and I regularly see the pantyhose/fishnet dude with red heels... Always the same. Both of them did not come across as making a fashion or gender statement, but as creeps and possibly narcissists trying to draw attention to themselves.

There're times where GNC in males seems fitting and non-creepy, like alternative styles or whatever, but I get the distinct feeling that a bunch of them definitely are inappropriate and they give me the ick. 

I feel like there's a difference between male GNC in theory and male GNC in practical reality: gross creepy men ruining everything. I don't like paticipating in someone's fetish. How do you see this?

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Mar 17 2025, 7:41 AM
#2
Yeah definitely.

For example a lot of men's ideas of women and femininity come directly from the patriarchy, and when it comes to straight men it's very related to being a fetish (a lot of the time) because they have weird ideas about women, submission, and inferiority which they fetishize into some weird humiliation ritual. I find it's more likely to happen in straight men but gay men can have their complexes for it too.

One red flag for me is when men like to infantilize themselves (IE: men who wear girls' clothing) in a way that's very unusual as a woman their age would not dress in. Another red flag is their only expression of femininity is pornified and they don't have normal feminine outfits appropriate to the occasion, IE: wearing a leather miniskirt to work or fishnets in a casual setting.

With straight men particularly - especially with femboys, I've noticed the way they often do their hair can be ponytails and pigtails in a childlike way. They often copy anime girl fashion through thigh highs and pleated schoolgirl skirts. They will often change the way they type and act on the internet to be more childlike, because this is how many men perceive femininity - that is, to literally be a child. This is similar to some gay men as well, twink culture very much rests on looking as young as possible because of our society's view that femininity = childlike, unfortunately this has led to a culture of sexual abuse towards young gay men.

Another aspect is bimbofication, men see masculinity/men = intelligence, and to validate their "femininity" they deviate from intelligence and enjoy bimbofication.

[Image: tTe7Zl1.png]

Unfortunately a lot of women have these ideas of femininity too, and are also into this subculture.

This aside, the green flag for male gnc is really just the organic "be yourself" type of femininity. Guy enjoys painting his nails, gardening, and female hobbies etc, he just does that. It's not a huge fetishized show, it's just what he likes. Vibes wise you can feel the difference. It's not exaggerated or oddly sexual, it's a human being not conforming to gender stereotypes.

And remember, femininity and masculinity is invented.
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noray
Mar 17 2025, 7:41 AM #2

Yeah definitely.

For example a lot of men's ideas of women and femininity come directly from the patriarchy, and when it comes to straight men it's very related to being a fetish (a lot of the time) because they have weird ideas about women, submission, and inferiority which they fetishize into some weird humiliation ritual. I find it's more likely to happen in straight men but gay men can have their complexes for it too.

One red flag for me is when men like to infantilize themselves (IE: men who wear girls' clothing) in a way that's very unusual as a woman their age would not dress in. Another red flag is their only expression of femininity is pornified and they don't have normal feminine outfits appropriate to the occasion, IE: wearing a leather miniskirt to work or fishnets in a casual setting.

With straight men particularly - especially with femboys, I've noticed the way they often do their hair can be ponytails and pigtails in a childlike way. They often copy anime girl fashion through thigh highs and pleated schoolgirl skirts. They will often change the way they type and act on the internet to be more childlike, because this is how many men perceive femininity - that is, to literally be a child. This is similar to some gay men as well, twink culture very much rests on looking as young as possible because of our society's view that femininity = childlike, unfortunately this has led to a culture of sexual abuse towards young gay men.

Another aspect is bimbofication, men see masculinity/men = intelligence, and to validate their "femininity" they deviate from intelligence and enjoy bimbofication.

[Image: tTe7Zl1.png]

Unfortunately a lot of women have these ideas of femininity too, and are also into this subculture.

This aside, the green flag for male gnc is really just the organic "be yourself" type of femininity. Guy enjoys painting his nails, gardening, and female hobbies etc, he just does that. It's not a huge fetishized show, it's just what he likes. Vibes wise you can feel the difference. It's not exaggerated or oddly sexual, it's a human being not conforming to gender stereotypes.

And remember, femininity and masculinity is invented.

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Mar 17 2025, 8:24 AM
#3
I think there's a difference between GNC and fetish behavior, just like there's a difference between gender conformity and fetish behavior.

There's no reason I should take the non-trans guy prancing around in fishnets and heels any more seriously than the guy walking around in black leather, chaps, and showing his muscles. They're showing off fetishes, not gender conformity/nonconformity.

A man who might wear a non-fetishy skirt, or a frilly blouse, or non-garish makeup, or feminine jewelry here and there - it looks odd to me because it isn't something I've seen all my life, but I'm in favor of his right to do so without harassment. A guy with bad skin who wants to buy some concealer or color-correcting makeup? Sure, don't shame him. A hair accessory? No problem. "Man buns" get mocked, but they're practical for longer-haired men, so why not? If it's done in a way that isn't fetishy or "look at me" (other than the looks people get for doing anything nonconforming), I don't have an issue.
Elsacat
Mar 17 2025, 8:24 AM #3

I think there's a difference between GNC and fetish behavior, just like there's a difference between gender conformity and fetish behavior.

There's no reason I should take the non-trans guy prancing around in fishnets and heels any more seriously than the guy walking around in black leather, chaps, and showing his muscles. They're showing off fetishes, not gender conformity/nonconformity.

A man who might wear a non-fetishy skirt, or a frilly blouse, or non-garish makeup, or feminine jewelry here and there - it looks odd to me because it isn't something I've seen all my life, but I'm in favor of his right to do so without harassment. A guy with bad skin who wants to buy some concealer or color-correcting makeup? Sure, don't shame him. A hair accessory? No problem. "Man buns" get mocked, but they're practical for longer-haired men, so why not? If it's done in a way that isn't fetishy or "look at me" (other than the looks people get for doing anything nonconforming), I don't have an issue.

komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
394
Mar 17 2025, 12:29 PM
#4
Came here to echo what Elsacat said. Of course, I'm not going to bat for creeps who push their fetishes on others. However, that's how we should see it—as creeps pushing their fetishes on others. This might sound like a bit of a no true Scotsman, but personally, I don't even really consider it "gender nonconformity," because if you think about it, men being gross about sex, violating other people's boundaries, and doing things without obtaining consent is pretty fucking male. 🤣 Maybe think of it this way: there are men who have foot fetishes, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange about men having feet. Similarly, there's men...and unfortunately a whole fucking lot of them...who fetishize their version of gender nonconformity, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange or bad about gender nonconformity itself. 

I hope we can be careful to draw that distinction about this issue here, because this was one of the things that turned me off about Ovarit—that is, the increase in the number of people sanctioning gender nonconformity in comments because of these creeps. I get it, I totally get it, they're forcing you to participate in their fetish and it's disgusting. But it is dangerous to fall into the trap of being like "well then all men should be forced to wear pants"...because the obvious flip side of that is that all women should be forced to wear skirts.

Side note: I actually tried raising this point in a message with the mods in o/GenderCritical, because to be blunt, if you think men should wear pants and only women can wear skirts, you're not critical of gender, you're enforcing it. But they were not receptive, so...yeah. 😔
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komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
Mar 17 2025, 12:29 PM #4

Came here to echo what Elsacat said. Of course, I'm not going to bat for creeps who push their fetishes on others. However, that's how we should see it—as creeps pushing their fetishes on others. This might sound like a bit of a no true Scotsman, but personally, I don't even really consider it "gender nonconformity," because if you think about it, men being gross about sex, violating other people's boundaries, and doing things without obtaining consent is pretty fucking male. 🤣 Maybe think of it this way: there are men who have foot fetishes, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange about men having feet. Similarly, there's men...and unfortunately a whole fucking lot of them...who fetishize their version of gender nonconformity, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange or bad about gender nonconformity itself. 

I hope we can be careful to draw that distinction about this issue here, because this was one of the things that turned me off about Ovarit—that is, the increase in the number of people sanctioning gender nonconformity in comments because of these creeps. I get it, I totally get it, they're forcing you to participate in their fetish and it's disgusting. But it is dangerous to fall into the trap of being like "well then all men should be forced to wear pants"...because the obvious flip side of that is that all women should be forced to wear skirts.

Side note: I actually tried raising this point in a message with the mods in o/GenderCritical, because to be blunt, if you think men should wear pants and only women can wear skirts, you're not critical of gender, you're enforcing it. But they were not receptive, so...yeah. 😔

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Mar 19 2025, 8:53 AM
#5
Quote:I don't even really consider it "gender nonconformity," because if you think about it, men being gross about sex, violating other people's boundaries, and doing things without obtaining consent is pretty fucking male.

This is it, 100%.

Quote:Similarly, there's men...and unfortunately a whole fucking lot of them...who fetishize their version of gender nonconformity, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange or bad about gender nonconformity itself.

Absolutely. I wish I could have articulated this back during the whole brony thing - when my son was about 8 or 9 and liked MLP. Men fetishizing a thing doesn't make that thing bad! And it doesn't mean that a child liking a children's show (for instance) means he's going to somehow become a man fetishizing a children's show.
Edited Mar 19 2025, 9:06 AM by magdalyn.
magdalyn
Mar 19 2025, 8:53 AM #5

Quote:I don't even really consider it "gender nonconformity," because if you think about it, men being gross about sex, violating other people's boundaries, and doing things without obtaining consent is pretty fucking male.

This is it, 100%.

Quote:Similarly, there's men...and unfortunately a whole fucking lot of them...who fetishize their version of gender nonconformity, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange or bad about gender nonconformity itself.

Absolutely. I wish I could have articulated this back during the whole brony thing - when my son was about 8 or 9 and liked MLP. Men fetishizing a thing doesn't make that thing bad! And it doesn't mean that a child liking a children's show (for instance) means he's going to somehow become a man fetishizing a children's show.

Dec 28 2025, 2:10 PM
#6
I've been wanting to respond to this for ages but struggled to organise my thoughts. A lot of really excellent replies here and I'm glad a lot of women have noticed the same pattern but also have some thoughts on it beyond just "ewww men need to wear pants because dresses are for women!".

I think a big part of the problem is that femininity is inherently sexual, women just get gaslit into thinking it isn't from the time they are children. I don't think any sexual dimension to femininity would make it inherrently fetishistic but since men are not tabula rasa and they inevitably bring their own patriarchal BS into it that they're more familiar with, in most cases, yes, it does end up fetishistic. Men are only really interested in femininity if it's inherently malegazey and reliant on patriarchal ideas on female inferiority. So they get into it for their own autogynephilic fetish or to get other men off (or both at the same time). There is for sure a lot of interest in male femininity from women, but it rarely factors into the motivations of even the men interested in women, because nothing women do ever does.

Frankly, men could use some humility and feeling the magnifying glass on them for a change. Femininity could teach them to feel something just from making themselves appealing and nonthreatening to the people around them, which as it is, they don't really experience or care to. They are usually fixated on obtaining power for themselves and subjugating others, or if "temporarily embarrassed" in their pursuit, either jerking off to it or moping over how unfair that is while shitting on women, often with the same men who are "temporarily embarrassing" them.

As a result, male gender nonconformity almost never rejects patriarchal expectations because men are all hoping to benefit from it in some way, even if indirectly via submissive fetishes, reveling in the patriarchal victim complex, or trying to cash in their NiceGuy coins for sex and worship. The best you can get out of them is hearing them mention how gender roles are bad, but only insofar as they get in the way of their own fetishes. The second this mindset has to be extended even slightly to the groups they are used to exploiting, it's back to the same ol' hierarchy. Almost none of these men are fine with women foregoing femininity, because despite all their "genderfuckery" posturing, they are very much stil entitled to a hot babe for all their still very much one-sided phallocentric sexual fantasies.

Most men get into this through porn categories, sex communities and a really maladapted obsession with patriarchal dynamics. A lot of men like this will parrot libfemmy "down with gender roles!" attitudes so as not to get in hot water for their creepy behaviour, but in reality, they would have little interest in the whole thing if they weren't getting off to the contrast between the image of a mighty superior man and an infantile, submissive, inferior image of a woman. It also tends to go hand in hand with misogynistic roleplaying like calling an anus a vagina, just to drive home the fact that these men aren't even trying to pretend that femininity is anything separate from being a woman, i.e. sex object.

At the same time, I think sometimes people act like they are approaching GNC in a fair way, but then are only really allowing it for a tiny minority of lithe, petite men who can "pass" as women, and any men outside of that narrow standard should be better off unkempt and with holes in their underwear. Which again shows an unwillingness to shake up the status quo: we'll allow a couple of exceptions if they are practically indistinguishable from women, but at the end of the day women are the ones who need to be sexualised and objectified, and men should be ugly and masculine and focused on more important stuff.

Quote:I find it's more likely to happen in straight men but gay men can have their complexes for it too.

I think with gay men, they benefit from there being an audience for femininity that matches the patriarchal norm they find familiar and appealing - i.e. horny men. Men care a lot about what other men think and they evaluate everything by androcentric (and ofc phallocentric) norms. There is certainly a large audience of women interested in feminine men, but men never cared about adapting to what women want and would rather waste time writing incel textwalls about how unfair it is that women have standards and don't find their plethora of chronically-online fetishes sexy (clits are not even in the picture to complain about, unless they're a TIM roleplaying that their dick is a poor neglected clit). Gay men are able to form some sense of validation from their attractiveness in a community where that is met positively by men whose approval they're used to covetting, whereas feminine straight men get nothing out of being appealing to women unless it gets them one-sided patriarchal sex with very conventionally attractive women.
Edited Dec 28 2025, 2:12 PM by YesYourNigel.
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YesYourNigel
Dec 28 2025, 2:10 PM #6

I've been wanting to respond to this for ages but struggled to organise my thoughts. A lot of really excellent replies here and I'm glad a lot of women have noticed the same pattern but also have some thoughts on it beyond just "ewww men need to wear pants because dresses are for women!".

I think a big part of the problem is that femininity is inherently sexual, women just get gaslit into thinking it isn't from the time they are children. I don't think any sexual dimension to femininity would make it inherrently fetishistic but since men are not tabula rasa and they inevitably bring their own patriarchal BS into it that they're more familiar with, in most cases, yes, it does end up fetishistic. Men are only really interested in femininity if it's inherently malegazey and reliant on patriarchal ideas on female inferiority. So they get into it for their own autogynephilic fetish or to get other men off (or both at the same time). There is for sure a lot of interest in male femininity from women, but it rarely factors into the motivations of even the men interested in women, because nothing women do ever does.

Frankly, men could use some humility and feeling the magnifying glass on them for a change. Femininity could teach them to feel something just from making themselves appealing and nonthreatening to the people around them, which as it is, they don't really experience or care to. They are usually fixated on obtaining power for themselves and subjugating others, or if "temporarily embarrassed" in their pursuit, either jerking off to it or moping over how unfair that is while shitting on women, often with the same men who are "temporarily embarrassing" them.

As a result, male gender nonconformity almost never rejects patriarchal expectations because men are all hoping to benefit from it in some way, even if indirectly via submissive fetishes, reveling in the patriarchal victim complex, or trying to cash in their NiceGuy coins for sex and worship. The best you can get out of them is hearing them mention how gender roles are bad, but only insofar as they get in the way of their own fetishes. The second this mindset has to be extended even slightly to the groups they are used to exploiting, it's back to the same ol' hierarchy. Almost none of these men are fine with women foregoing femininity, because despite all their "genderfuckery" posturing, they are very much stil entitled to a hot babe for all their still very much one-sided phallocentric sexual fantasies.

Most men get into this through porn categories, sex communities and a really maladapted obsession with patriarchal dynamics. A lot of men like this will parrot libfemmy "down with gender roles!" attitudes so as not to get in hot water for their creepy behaviour, but in reality, they would have little interest in the whole thing if they weren't getting off to the contrast between the image of a mighty superior man and an infantile, submissive, inferior image of a woman. It also tends to go hand in hand with misogynistic roleplaying like calling an anus a vagina, just to drive home the fact that these men aren't even trying to pretend that femininity is anything separate from being a woman, i.e. sex object.

At the same time, I think sometimes people act like they are approaching GNC in a fair way, but then are only really allowing it for a tiny minority of lithe, petite men who can "pass" as women, and any men outside of that narrow standard should be better off unkempt and with holes in their underwear. Which again shows an unwillingness to shake up the status quo: we'll allow a couple of exceptions if they are practically indistinguishable from women, but at the end of the day women are the ones who need to be sexualised and objectified, and men should be ugly and masculine and focused on more important stuff.

Quote:I find it's more likely to happen in straight men but gay men can have their complexes for it too.

I think with gay men, they benefit from there being an audience for femininity that matches the patriarchal norm they find familiar and appealing - i.e. horny men. Men care a lot about what other men think and they evaluate everything by androcentric (and ofc phallocentric) norms. There is certainly a large audience of women interested in feminine men, but men never cared about adapting to what women want and would rather waste time writing incel textwalls about how unfair it is that women have standards and don't find their plethora of chronically-online fetishes sexy (clits are not even in the picture to complain about, unless they're a TIM roleplaying that their dick is a poor neglected clit). Gay men are able to form some sense of validation from their attractiveness in a community where that is met positively by men whose approval they're used to covetting, whereas feminine straight men get nothing out of being appealing to women unless it gets them one-sided patriarchal sex with very conventionally attractive women.

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Dec 28 2025, 11:44 PM
#7
(Dec 28 2025, 2:10 PM)YesYourNigel I think a big part of the problem is that femininity is inherently sexual, women just get gaslit into thinking it isn't from the time they are children. I don't think any sexual dimension to femininity would make it inherrently fetishistic but since men are not tabula rasa and they inevitably bring their own patriarchal BS into it that they're more familiar with, in most cases, yes, it does end up fetishistic. Men are only really interested in femininity if it's inherently malegazey and reliant on patriarchal ideas on female inferiority. So they get into it for their own autogynephilic fetish or to get other men off (or both at the same time). 

Well said. Femininity is the socialization of being easier to oppress. More revealing and restrictive clothing, the pressure to spend our already-decreased financial power on cosmetic products and procedures, being quiet and submissive, not pursuing careers that pay well... All of these are "feminine," and all of these make women easier prey to men. 

I've said it elsewhere but I'll say it here, too. Clothes and grooming have no inherent meaning. No inherent gender or sexual titillation. However, men (and many women) assign MASSIVE meaning to these things. IDGAF if a man wears a skirt or makeup, but he sure cares and wants me to care about it too, and therein lies the problem. He believes it means something or wants it to mean something and this gets his arousal up for whatever reason. None of that has anything to do with other people, but men can't seem to just leave other people--particularly women--out of their bullshit. Gender nonconformity, when genuine, is awesome. But too many men do it for pp feelings or attention, not because they're being authentic (like noray said earlier in the thread).
Edited Dec 28 2025, 11:45 PM by ShameMustChangeSides.
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ShameMustChangeSides
Dec 28 2025, 11:44 PM #7

(Dec 28 2025, 2:10 PM)YesYourNigel I think a big part of the problem is that femininity is inherently sexual, women just get gaslit into thinking it isn't from the time they are children. I don't think any sexual dimension to femininity would make it inherrently fetishistic but since men are not tabula rasa and they inevitably bring their own patriarchal BS into it that they're more familiar with, in most cases, yes, it does end up fetishistic. Men are only really interested in femininity if it's inherently malegazey and reliant on patriarchal ideas on female inferiority. So they get into it for their own autogynephilic fetish or to get other men off (or both at the same time). 

Well said. Femininity is the socialization of being easier to oppress. More revealing and restrictive clothing, the pressure to spend our already-decreased financial power on cosmetic products and procedures, being quiet and submissive, not pursuing careers that pay well... All of these are "feminine," and all of these make women easier prey to men. 

I've said it elsewhere but I'll say it here, too. Clothes and grooming have no inherent meaning. No inherent gender or sexual titillation. However, men (and many women) assign MASSIVE meaning to these things. IDGAF if a man wears a skirt or makeup, but he sure cares and wants me to care about it too, and therein lies the problem. He believes it means something or wants it to mean something and this gets his arousal up for whatever reason. None of that has anything to do with other people, but men can't seem to just leave other people--particularly women--out of their bullshit. Gender nonconformity, when genuine, is awesome. But too many men do it for pp feelings or attention, not because they're being authentic (like noray said earlier in the thread).

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komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
394
8 hours ago
#8
If it comes across as a fetish, it probably is. I do believe men can be authentically gnc like noray mentioned (and that that's a good thing), but in this pornbrained day and age it's unfortunately rare. I wish it wasn't.
komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
8 hours ago #8

If it comes across as a fetish, it probably is. I do believe men can be authentically gnc like noray mentioned (and that that's a good thing), but in this pornbrained day and age it's unfortunately rare. I wish it wasn't.

Persephone
Trapped in the land of the dead 🪷
36
6 hours ago
#9
It's a very simplistic way to classify and there are absolutely exceptions, but my "alt guy dressed to be shocking = cool, non-alt guy crossdressing = red flag" rule hasn't failed me more than once.
Persephone
Trapped in the land of the dead 🪷
6 hours ago #9

It's a very simplistic way to classify and there are absolutely exceptions, but my "alt guy dressed to be shocking = cool, non-alt guy crossdressing = red flag" rule hasn't failed me more than once.

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