Discussion Beauty Resistance is Gender Resistance
Discussion Beauty Resistance is Gender Resistance
Quote:Some data on the parasites
I'll keep updating this post with more
Daughters increase longevity of fathers
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16634019/
Daughters spend more time caring for aging parents
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/08/20/daughters-spend-more-time-caring-for-aging-parents-than-sons/
Wives increase husband's lifespans while husbands decrease wive's lifespan (correlation is even greater when age gap increases)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100512062631.htm
Men with sisters are happier and more optimistic
https://www.tlc.com/life---relationships/study-says-having-a-sister-makes-you-more-optimistic-kinder-and-happier
Women with brothers earn less money
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/women-brother-gender-pay-gap-earn-less-study-research-cornell-university-a7959166.html
Women with brothers are forced to conform more strongly to gender expectations
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00148-021-00830-9
Mother's lives are reduced by giving birth to sons
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/having-sons-can-shorten-a-woman-life/
No shit: Women are happier without parasites and children
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert
The Kinsey Reports found out (in 1948) that at least half of m*les have cheated on their female partners. 24 percent of these subhumans 80 years or older report cheating while only 6 percent of women say the same.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02693241
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/11/dr-kinseys-revolution/303649/
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/age-married-men-most-likely-044145609.html
Quote:Specifically, there has been a decline of between 3 to 6 percent in the number of students identifying as non-binary in 2025, compared to 2023.
Additionally, the researchers found that there has been a "return to heterosexuality," even though students identifying as lesbian or gay have remained "stable" in recent years. That said, the number of students identifying as heterosexual still remains 7 percentage points below its level in 2020.
Those identifying as bisexual have varied the most, increasing from 10 to 17 percent of students between 2020 and 2023, and decreasing to 12 percent by 2025.
Quote:...In April [2018], The Telegraph reported on a growing movement against “cultural violence against women” in South Korea, which rose up in response to the fact that women in the nation were undergoing more plastic surgery than anywhere else in the world. Emanuel Pastreich, head of the Asia Institute, told Julian Ryall:
“Korean society has become completely distorted by this rush to undergo surgery and, speaking personally, I believe it is very sad that it has shifted to the point that women are seen merely as sex objects that have to undergo the scalpel to be perfect.”
This movement had success in November 2017 when Seoul Metro, which runs trains and buses in the world’s most populous city, banned cosmetic surgery ads in its stations.
Beauty practices are enforced more strictly for South Korean women than perhaps any female population on earth. Women’s ability to flourish and live autonomously, in a political, economic, and social context, is kept in check through intense pressure to get plastic surgery, to diet after graduation in order to compete in the job market, and to spend money on skin treatments, hair styling, and body hair removal treatments. Even for underage Korean girls the regime is fundamentalist: it’s hard to find a girl not wearing makeup by sixth grade, and some middle school uniforms for girls come with inner pockets for lip gloss. Female students in secondary schools are told not wearing makeup is socially impolite.
Under this regime, the beauty and personal care industries are extremely profitable, and whole sectors of the economy are dominated by cosmetics, dieting, and fashion. One extreme plastic surgery procedure popularized by K-pop stars is called “V-line surgery,” and involves shaving the jawline to create a V-shaped face. The Verge reports, “Technically called ‘corrective jaw surgery,’ it’s a procedure that requires the jaw to be wired shut for six weeks and can result in permanent numbness or death.”
...
The campaign began when young Korean women — calling themselves “beauty resisters” — began posting before-and-after selfies showing the results of throwing off beauty practices and images of destroyed beauty, cosmetic, and dieting products online. Others women joined in, discontinuing regimes of beauty in their personal lives as a strategy of political liberation for women as a whole.
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When she was around, YesYourNigel would often call not for acceptance of different gender expressions (masculine, feminine, and the various compromises thereof), but for the abolition of femininity. This post is essentially me agreeing with that position and offering a bit of my thinking on why. (My thinking is obviously not entirely hers.)
Let's start off by pointing out trans-women are roughly three times as common as trans-men. In fact, what we today call the gender identity issue used to be almost entirely a male problem. It's only truly become otherwise in this century. And when girls and women do seek to disavow womanhood, they rarely go so far as to aspire to maleness. On the contrary, girls and young women living under the trans umbrella usually choose the more neutral gender identity called "non-binary". Why the disparity? Why do many boys and men wish to belong to the other sex while girls and women almost never do? Because Valerie Solanas was right, not an hysterical loon: deep down, we all know that men are inferior to women and the contours of transgenderism are simply one especially stark expression of this reality among countless others. There are a thousand different proofs of female superiority, but I'll take just a moment here to hook you up with just a few more of them, courtesy of Womad:
Quote:Some data on the parasites
I'll keep updating this post with more
Daughters increase longevity of fathers
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16634019/
Daughters spend more time caring for aging parents
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/08/20/daughters-spend-more-time-caring-for-aging-parents-than-sons/
Wives increase husband's lifespans while husbands decrease wive's lifespan (correlation is even greater when age gap increases)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100512062631.htm
Men with sisters are happier and more optimistic
https://www.tlc.com/life---relationships/study-says-having-a-sister-makes-you-more-optimistic-kinder-and-happier
Women with brothers earn less money
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/women-brother-gender-pay-gap-earn-less-study-research-cornell-university-a7959166.html
Women with brothers are forced to conform more strongly to gender expectations
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00148-021-00830-9
Mother's lives are reduced by giving birth to sons
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/having-sons-can-shorten-a-woman-life/
No shit: Women are happier without parasites and children
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert
The Kinsey Reports found out (in 1948) that at least half of m*les have cheated on their female partners. 24 percent of these subhumans 80 years or older report cheating while only 6 percent of women say the same.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02693241
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/11/dr-kinseys-revolution/303649/
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/age-married-men-most-likely-044145609.html
Quote:Specifically, there has been a decline of between 3 to 6 percent in the number of students identifying as non-binary in 2025, compared to 2023.
Additionally, the researchers found that there has been a "return to heterosexuality," even though students identifying as lesbian or gay have remained "stable" in recent years. That said, the number of students identifying as heterosexual still remains 7 percentage points below its level in 2020.
Those identifying as bisexual have varied the most, increasing from 10 to 17 percent of students between 2020 and 2023, and decreasing to 12 percent by 2025.
Quote:...In April [2018], The Telegraph reported on a growing movement against “cultural violence against women” in South Korea, which rose up in response to the fact that women in the nation were undergoing more plastic surgery than anywhere else in the world. Emanuel Pastreich, head of the Asia Institute, told Julian Ryall:
“Korean society has become completely distorted by this rush to undergo surgery and, speaking personally, I believe it is very sad that it has shifted to the point that women are seen merely as sex objects that have to undergo the scalpel to be perfect.”
This movement had success in November 2017 when Seoul Metro, which runs trains and buses in the world’s most populous city, banned cosmetic surgery ads in its stations.
Beauty practices are enforced more strictly for South Korean women than perhaps any female population on earth. Women’s ability to flourish and live autonomously, in a political, economic, and social context, is kept in check through intense pressure to get plastic surgery, to diet after graduation in order to compete in the job market, and to spend money on skin treatments, hair styling, and body hair removal treatments. Even for underage Korean girls the regime is fundamentalist: it’s hard to find a girl not wearing makeup by sixth grade, and some middle school uniforms for girls come with inner pockets for lip gloss. Female students in secondary schools are told not wearing makeup is socially impolite.
Under this regime, the beauty and personal care industries are extremely profitable, and whole sectors of the economy are dominated by cosmetics, dieting, and fashion. One extreme plastic surgery procedure popularized by K-pop stars is called “V-line surgery,” and involves shaving the jawline to create a V-shaped face. The Verge reports, “Technically called ‘corrective jaw surgery,’ it’s a procedure that requires the jaw to be wired shut for six weeks and can result in permanent numbness or death.”
...
The campaign began when young Korean women — calling themselves “beauty resisters” — began posting before-and-after selfies showing the results of throwing off beauty practices and images of destroyed beauty, cosmetic, and dieting products online. Others women joined in, discontinuing regimes of beauty in their personal lives as a strategy of political liberation for women as a whole.
Quote:Let's start off by pointing out trans-women are roughly three times as common as trans-men. In fact, what we today call the gender identity issue used to be almost entirely a male problem. It's only truly become otherwise in this century. And when girls and women do seek to disavow womanhood, they rarely go so far as to aspire to maleness.
Quote:In short, moids are far more emotionally dependent on us than we are on them. Physically we may not be the stronger sex, but emotionally we definitely are. The further away girls and women are from their male counterparts, the happier and healthier we tend to be. Moids get their health and happiness by attaching themselves to us and draining ours. They extend their lives by reducing ours. They are literally emotional parasites. This simple fact proves the misogyny inherent in leftists' frequent arguments in favor of narrowing the sex gap in life expectancy. A gap only narrowly favoring women suggests male privilege. The freer women are, the longer we live, the shorter men are going to tend to live because they can't mentally-emotionally make it without us. They lose it and die younger. A world in which girls and women were as well off as possible would be one with a wider life expectancy gap, not a smaller one.
Quote:It also reflects the different ways that our brains work. The female brain is more neurally interconnected than the male brain, so it follows that we would tend to view the elements of life as being more interconnected, more related to each other, while a man will see things more in isolation, in poles and separations.
Quote:My point is that we're talking about the same demographic here in both cases: girls and young women are the ones who in the last 15 years or so became far more likely to call themselves bi than in the past and likewise have been the driving force in the uptick in gender-queer identification, led heavily by newfound "non-binary" self-classifications. Let me suggest to you that these are the same girls and women. Basically "non-binary" is a subset of the bi trend that is now receding in the culture. As bi identification declines, so too does non-binary ID. The two things go hand-in-hand because they are closely related and very, very heavily overlapping in truth to the point of being close to synonymous.
Quote:The study linked above suggests that the aforementioned receding began after the pandemic lifted and people started being able to access therapy again and whatnot and the public's mental health in general began to notch discernible, statistically-measurable improvements. In other words, there is evidence of an perhaps causative connection between poor mental health and bi and non-binary identification in that, as mental health improves, these sexual and gender IDs become less common. Causation isn't firmly established here, but the correlation has to be taken as significant for sure.
Quote:It certainly would help validate feminist arguments that gender identity is a social contagion, not a naturally occurring phenomenon unrelated to mental health or illness. But this would suggest the bisexual identification to some considerable extent may also be part of the same social contagion, which would be new territory for the consideration of modern feminists.
Quote:None of this is to suggest that there's no such thing as a genuine bi woman or that all bisexuality is false or fabricated in every case, but it does kinda dovetail with the well-known reality that very few so-called bi women bother to date other women (especially more than once).
Quote:The bulk today seem to be young, recent "converts" who really just latched onto the marriage equality movement strongly enough that they wanted to be gay or wanted the attention and public sympathy that seemed to be there for gay people in and around the height of the marriage equality movement, something like that, and so essentially found a way appropriate a gay identity without actually being, you know, gay.
Quote:It's noteworthy that, by contrast, the number of lesbians and gay men "has remained stable", i.e. seems unaffected by changes in the public's general mental well-being. Perhaps because that is a naturally occurring phenomenon.
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Quote:Let's start off by pointing out trans-women are roughly three times as common as trans-men. In fact, what we today call the gender identity issue used to be almost entirely a male problem. It's only truly become otherwise in this century. And when girls and women do seek to disavow womanhood, they rarely go so far as to aspire to maleness.
Quote:In short, moids are far more emotionally dependent on us than we are on them. Physically we may not be the stronger sex, but emotionally we definitely are. The further away girls and women are from their male counterparts, the happier and healthier we tend to be. Moids get their health and happiness by attaching themselves to us and draining ours. They extend their lives by reducing ours. They are literally emotional parasites. This simple fact proves the misogyny inherent in leftists' frequent arguments in favor of narrowing the sex gap in life expectancy. A gap only narrowly favoring women suggests male privilege. The freer women are, the longer we live, the shorter men are going to tend to live because they can't mentally-emotionally make it without us. They lose it and die younger. A world in which girls and women were as well off as possible would be one with a wider life expectancy gap, not a smaller one.
Quote:It also reflects the different ways that our brains work. The female brain is more neurally interconnected than the male brain, so it follows that we would tend to view the elements of life as being more interconnected, more related to each other, while a man will see things more in isolation, in poles and separations.
Quote:My point is that we're talking about the same demographic here in both cases: girls and young women are the ones who in the last 15 years or so became far more likely to call themselves bi than in the past and likewise have been the driving force in the uptick in gender-queer identification, led heavily by newfound "non-binary" self-classifications. Let me suggest to you that these are the same girls and women. Basically "non-binary" is a subset of the bi trend that is now receding in the culture. As bi identification declines, so too does non-binary ID. The two things go hand-in-hand because they are closely related and very, very heavily overlapping in truth to the point of being close to synonymous.
Quote:The study linked above suggests that the aforementioned receding began after the pandemic lifted and people started being able to access therapy again and whatnot and the public's mental health in general began to notch discernible, statistically-measurable improvements. In other words, there is evidence of an perhaps causative connection between poor mental health and bi and non-binary identification in that, as mental health improves, these sexual and gender IDs become less common. Causation isn't firmly established here, but the correlation has to be taken as significant for sure.
Quote:It certainly would help validate feminist arguments that gender identity is a social contagion, not a naturally occurring phenomenon unrelated to mental health or illness. But this would suggest the bisexual identification to some considerable extent may also be part of the same social contagion, which would be new territory for the consideration of modern feminists.
Quote:None of this is to suggest that there's no such thing as a genuine bi woman or that all bisexuality is false or fabricated in every case, but it does kinda dovetail with the well-known reality that very few so-called bi women bother to date other women (especially more than once).
Quote:The bulk today seem to be young, recent "converts" who really just latched onto the marriage equality movement strongly enough that they wanted to be gay or wanted the attention and public sympathy that seemed to be there for gay people in and around the height of the marriage equality movement, something like that, and so essentially found a way appropriate a gay identity without actually being, you know, gay.
Quote:It's noteworthy that, by contrast, the number of lesbians and gay men "has remained stable", i.e. seems unaffected by changes in the public's general mental well-being. Perhaps because that is a naturally occurring phenomenon.
(Jan 24 2026, 5:01 AM)Magpie You are correct that it used to be almost entirely a male concept, but your numbers for TIFs that choose to identify as men are off. They are about as common as both "transwomen" and "enbies" in the States (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/) and in the UK among young people they are more common than "transwomen" and while there are less than "enbies", the gap isn't nearly as big as you imply. (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/articles/genderidentityageandsexenglandandwalescensus2021/2023-01-25)

Quote:Incredibly confusing argument. You take something that actually does in a way prove a certain type of physical strength that women possess (longer life expectancy aka longevity) and you choose to make it about... emotions? We live longer on average because despite lacking brute strength we have plenty of other physical advantages like a healthier fat distribution and a lesser likelihood to develop a variety of deadly diseases. Female sex hormones get trashed a lot (even in feminist spaces, for some reason) but they do have a bunch of upsides.
Quote:None of this is actually how the brain works, and iirc I've already corrected you on this once before.
For one, just because a "sex difference" is found in brain architecture that doesn't automatically mean that this also matters in functioning. Women's brains are on average smaller than men's because we are on average smaller than them, and brain architecture would have to adjust to keep the function the same. So the important thing here is to look at whether the supposed sex difference remains or disappears after correcting for size. Unfortunately for your theory, the difference in connectivity between men and women is indeed explained by differences in brain size: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804?via%3Dihub#sec0065 (the relevant part is under point 5.1). I'd also like to point out that they mention that a number of studies found either no differences or only minor ones.
Secondly, even if the higher connectivity was a true sex difference, that does not mean its functioning would translate as literally as you claim it does. Higher connectivity would not mean that you actually see things as more interconnected, that's a very big leap of logic which you do not support with any sort of evidence at all.
Quote:You are correct that there is a correlation between sexual orientation and mental health. Bi women (and bi men, too) have higher rates of a variety of mental health issues (self-harm, suicidal ideation, substance abuse) than their heterosexual and homosexual counterparts. But why jump to conclusions and assume that the mental health is causing the sexual identity, instead of being open to the idea that when a group is met with a disproportionate amount harm (like the sexual abuse I've mentioned above) this can cause the mental health issues?
Quote:Gay boys/men and lesbian girls/women also have worse mental health outcomes than heterosexuals, does that imply their sexuality is a consequence of it too, according to you?
Quote:It's a well-known stereotype, not a well-known "reality". At least it isn't true in the EU: https://www.ilga-europe.org/files/uploads/2023/08/FRA-Intersections-Report-Bisexuals.pdf (the relevant table is on page 7). Interestingly enough, bisexual men also go against their stereotype according to the same report.
(Jan 24 2026, 5:01 AM)Magpie You are correct that it used to be almost entirely a male concept, but your numbers for TIFs that choose to identify as men are off. They are about as common as both "transwomen" and "enbies" in the States (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/) and in the UK among young people they are more common than "transwomen" and while there are less than "enbies", the gap isn't nearly as big as you imply. (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/articles/genderidentityageandsexenglandandwalescensus2021/2023-01-25)

Quote:Incredibly confusing argument. You take something that actually does in a way prove a certain type of physical strength that women possess (longer life expectancy aka longevity) and you choose to make it about... emotions? We live longer on average because despite lacking brute strength we have plenty of other physical advantages like a healthier fat distribution and a lesser likelihood to develop a variety of deadly diseases. Female sex hormones get trashed a lot (even in feminist spaces, for some reason) but they do have a bunch of upsides.
Quote:None of this is actually how the brain works, and iirc I've already corrected you on this once before.
For one, just because a "sex difference" is found in brain architecture that doesn't automatically mean that this also matters in functioning. Women's brains are on average smaller than men's because we are on average smaller than them, and brain architecture would have to adjust to keep the function the same. So the important thing here is to look at whether the supposed sex difference remains or disappears after correcting for size. Unfortunately for your theory, the difference in connectivity between men and women is indeed explained by differences in brain size: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804?via%3Dihub#sec0065 (the relevant part is under point 5.1). I'd also like to point out that they mention that a number of studies found either no differences or only minor ones.
Secondly, even if the higher connectivity was a true sex difference, that does not mean its functioning would translate as literally as you claim it does. Higher connectivity would not mean that you actually see things as more interconnected, that's a very big leap of logic which you do not support with any sort of evidence at all.
Quote:You are correct that there is a correlation between sexual orientation and mental health. Bi women (and bi men, too) have higher rates of a variety of mental health issues (self-harm, suicidal ideation, substance abuse) than their heterosexual and homosexual counterparts. But why jump to conclusions and assume that the mental health is causing the sexual identity, instead of being open to the idea that when a group is met with a disproportionate amount harm (like the sexual abuse I've mentioned above) this can cause the mental health issues?
Quote:Gay boys/men and lesbian girls/women also have worse mental health outcomes than heterosexuals, does that imply their sexuality is a consequence of it too, according to you?
Quote:It's a well-known stereotype, not a well-known "reality". At least it isn't true in the EU: https://www.ilga-europe.org/files/uploads/2023/08/FRA-Intersections-Report-Bisexuals.pdf (the relevant table is on page 7). Interestingly enough, bisexual men also go against their stereotype according to the same report.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly You've misread what I proposed. I said nothing about why women on average outlive men. Rather, I was arguing that by decoupling ourselves from men more fully, that women's lives would be extended further and men's would shorten. I was capturing the impact of the stress and anxiety that living with boys and men takes on us.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly Frankly, these arguments to me seem like reaching. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you're right; that the only real difference between the typical woman's brain and that of the typical man is its size and every other distinction is in fact attributable solely to that. Let's just assume for the sake of argument that you're right about all that. So what? What dif does it make in the real world? Men's and women's brains are still functionally different and functionally work quite differently regardless of whether the cause of that difference formally lies in the chromosomes. I'm not an essentialist about this stuff: I'm not arguing that differences in brain structure between the sexes are absolute, but simply that they clearly exist in aggregate.
Let me give you a concrete example: women need more sleep than men because our brains process information five times faster than theirs do. You act like that's a made-up difference that has no impact on our lives. And that's just the beginning!
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly I didn't jump to that conclusion. In fact I specifically said, quote: "Causation isn't firmly established here, but the correlation has to be taken as significant for sure. There's no need to put words in my mouth. I also later on elaborated that "None of this is to suggest that there's no such thing as a genuine bi woman or that all bisexuality is false or fabricated in every case...". There are in fact ways of even arguing in fact that all women are technically at least marginally gay, although they are dubious.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly In contrast to "bi" people, the sexual identification of lesbians and gay males seems unaffected by general social changes in mental health. It doesn't seem to go away as one's general mental state improves. The correlation doesn't exist.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly That data is interesting because it starkly contradicts both the circumstantial evidence that I've experienced and the survey data I have on the same subject. For example, Pew Research has found that 84% of self-identified bisexual people in committed relationships are in a relationship with someone of the other sex while just 9% are currently in a same-sex relationship. Even that doesn't necessarily mean anything because the simple math of who one's options include would naturally favor the other sex,
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly but it also could be a case of dating landscape having changed in the seven years between these two surveys. After all, the intervening period saw a certain crisis of heterosexuality begin to emerge. Maybe more bi people in general are focusing on same-sex options in this next context? I think that's also a possibility.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly Yet none of this is incompatible with the conclusion that less than 100% of bi women are in fact gay in a way that finds meaningful expression in the way they live.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly NOW, what would really like to point out is that we're not even discussing the core thing that this thread is truly about here, which is the defining role of the beauty industry in the modern female identity crisis and the prescription of organized beauty resistance as therefore the basic answer. I sought to make that point in the title even. We've gotten a bit sidetracked on this discussion of bi-ness that maybe I've overstated the significance of a bit in truth.
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(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly You've misread what I proposed. I said nothing about why women on average outlive men. Rather, I was arguing that by decoupling ourselves from men more fully, that women's lives would be extended further and men's would shorten. I was capturing the impact of the stress and anxiety that living with boys and men takes on us.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly Frankly, these arguments to me seem like reaching. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you're right; that the only real difference between the typical woman's brain and that of the typical man is its size and every other distinction is in fact attributable solely to that. Let's just assume for the sake of argument that you're right about all that. So what? What dif does it make in the real world? Men's and women's brains are still functionally different and functionally work quite differently regardless of whether the cause of that difference formally lies in the chromosomes. I'm not an essentialist about this stuff: I'm not arguing that differences in brain structure between the sexes are absolute, but simply that they clearly exist in aggregate.
Let me give you a concrete example: women need more sleep than men because our brains process information five times faster than theirs do. You act like that's a made-up difference that has no impact on our lives. And that's just the beginning!
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly I didn't jump to that conclusion. In fact I specifically said, quote: "Causation isn't firmly established here, but the correlation has to be taken as significant for sure. There's no need to put words in my mouth. I also later on elaborated that "None of this is to suggest that there's no such thing as a genuine bi woman or that all bisexuality is false or fabricated in every case...". There are in fact ways of even arguing in fact that all women are technically at least marginally gay, although they are dubious.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly In contrast to "bi" people, the sexual identification of lesbians and gay males seems unaffected by general social changes in mental health. It doesn't seem to go away as one's general mental state improves. The correlation doesn't exist.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly That data is interesting because it starkly contradicts both the circumstantial evidence that I've experienced and the survey data I have on the same subject. For example, Pew Research has found that 84% of self-identified bisexual people in committed relationships are in a relationship with someone of the other sex while just 9% are currently in a same-sex relationship. Even that doesn't necessarily mean anything because the simple math of who one's options include would naturally favor the other sex,
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly but it also could be a case of dating landscape having changed in the seven years between these two surveys. After all, the intervening period saw a certain crisis of heterosexuality begin to emerge. Maybe more bi people in general are focusing on same-sex options in this next context? I think that's also a possibility.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly Yet none of this is incompatible with the conclusion that less than 100% of bi women are in fact gay in a way that finds meaningful expression in the way they live.
(Jan 25 2026, 1:20 AM)Impress Polly NOW, what would really like to point out is that we're not even discussing the core thing that this thread is truly about here, which is the defining role of the beauty industry in the modern female identity crisis and the prescription of organized beauty resistance as therefore the basic answer. I sought to make that point in the title even. We've gotten a bit sidetracked on this discussion of bi-ness that maybe I've overstated the significance of a bit in truth.
Quote:I was responding to your heavy emphasis on emotions (men being emotionally dependent, women being emotionally stronger, etc) while also claiming that women are physically not as strong. This is probably just a pet peeve on my part but I'm not a fan of physical strength only ever being defined in a male default type of way while women only ever get to have the "softer" stuff.
Quote:I mean yeah, you making it a major point is why I responded in the first place. Does it have anything with femininity/gender expressions? Not at all. But you chose to elaborate on it anyway. If you include it as if it's relevant to the topic I will respond to it as such.
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Okay, so I did some more research today on the percentages of bi people in same vs. opposite-sex relationships since prior estimates I relied on could've been outdated, especially with how many more people (girls and young women in particular) have begun identifying as bi in these last 15 years or so and the survey data you (Magpie) provided was more recent, with the data itself dating to 2019. I found a more recent study by Pew Research published in 2019 (actual data collection having occurred in the late summer of 2017) and noooooooooooooope, things look very much the same as in the 2013 iteration I mentioned in my last post. Slightly more pronounced even. What I'd really like to highlight here though for our purposes here is the starkness of the contrast between what bi-identifying people say and how they live. In describing their personal leanings, here's what they say:
Here though is how they live:
(This survey doesn't distinguish between the sexes of bi people, but we know that it's mainly young women who call themselves bi.)
To summarize this, of those who claim to be attracted more to one sex than the other, the skew favors opposite-sex attraction by a margin of more than three to one (44% vs. 13%) while a large minority (43%) claims equal attraction to both sexes, or "true bisexual" status if you will. The 13% who report being mainly or exclusively same-sex attracted aligns closely with the 12% of partnered ones who are or have most recently been in same-sex relationships. Those stats are essentially identical, which makes sense. Here's what doesn't make sense to my brain though: everyone else, apparently including every single one of the "true bisexuals", is partnered with someone of the opposite sex. It's 88% versus 12% in actual lived practice. Surely there should at least be a few from other categories who are in same-sex relationships, but no, none. None at all it would seem. This is the kind of thing that makes me question the seriousness of many people's claims to be bi. It just seems to me like somebody has to be lying here. Probably a lot of people. But again, 2017 wasn't 2019 and America isn't Europe, so cultural differences and changes in dating culture itself that really seem to have begun in earnest specifically in 2018 could still be an explanation for the contrast between the study you've shared and the ones I'm readily able to find so far. Maybe more bi women today are choosing same-sex relationships than in the past owing to these changes or cultural differences.
I'm not going to parse words with you about the rest of this. I just want to respond to two other things real quick this evening:
Quote:I was responding to your heavy emphasis on emotions (men being emotionally dependent, women being emotionally stronger, etc) while also claiming that women are physically not as strong. This is probably just a pet peeve on my part but I'm not a fan of physical strength only ever being defined in a male default type of way while women only ever get to have the "softer" stuff.
Quote:I mean yeah, you making it a major point is why I responded in the first place. Does it have anything with femininity/gender expressions? Not at all. But you chose to elaborate on it anyway. If you include it as if it's relevant to the topic I will respond to it as such.
(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly Here's what doesn't make sense to my brain though: everyone else, apparently including every single one of the "true bisexuals", is partnered with someone of the opposite sex. It's 88% versus 12% in actual lived practice
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(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly Here's what doesn't make sense to my brain though: everyone else, apparently including every single one of the "true bisexuals", is partnered with someone of the opposite sex. It's 88% versus 12% in actual lived practice
(Jan 25 2026, 10:25 PM)ShameMustChangeSides(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly Here's what doesn't make sense to my brain though: everyone else, apparently including every single one of the "true bisexuals", is partnered with someone of the opposite sex. It's 88% versus 12% in actual lived practice
I'll chime in here as someone who is bisexual and has been for almost as long as I can remember. While "queer theorists" have made an absolute mess of the concept of "compulsory heterosexuality," it explains a lot about why I've mainly found myself romantically involved with men. Our whole society is structured around pairing women with men, and all our socialization and examples of what romance looks like happens to be based on women partnering with men. Add in the fact that you can't just tell who is also same-sex attracted by looking at them, and it tends to be immensely easier to find a partner of the opposite sex. I don't walk around announcing that I find women attractive, and neither do other people around me--well, at least women don't. On top of this, many homosexual people aren't interested in dating people who are bisexual--I don't know how much that applies to gay men but I've heard it quite a bit from lesbians.
All that to say, I think it's less a matter of bisexual people wanting to be "cool and unique" through mistaken identity claims, and more a matter of convenience. People most often date people in their geographical region and of a similar SES and cultural background--why? Because it's familiar and easy. I don't think romance for bisexual people is much different than that.
), but I did briefly date one bi woman before many years ago. It turned out that I was an experiment. It's not too fun being someone else's experiment, though we all have to start somewhere. To sum it all up, basically she wanted me to be "the man" in the relationship, as in to the point that, in her vision of our potential future together, I was supposed to earn all the money and wear a strap-on, and I let her down. She obviously wasn't representative that way, but I've known lesbians before who didn't want to date bi women at all, or at least not ones lacking prior experience dating other women, precisely because they'd had some kind of negative experience being someone else's experiment before. I guess this particular issue then becomes a vicious cycle where bi women choose male partners because lesbians won't date them and (well at least older) lesbians, in turn, won't date them because of their lack of experience dating other women. It looks like a self-reinforcing problem to me.(Jan 25 2026, 10:25 PM)ShameMustChangeSides(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly Here's what doesn't make sense to my brain though: everyone else, apparently including every single one of the "true bisexuals", is partnered with someone of the opposite sex. It's 88% versus 12% in actual lived practice
I'll chime in here as someone who is bisexual and has been for almost as long as I can remember. While "queer theorists" have made an absolute mess of the concept of "compulsory heterosexuality," it explains a lot about why I've mainly found myself romantically involved with men. Our whole society is structured around pairing women with men, and all our socialization and examples of what romance looks like happens to be based on women partnering with men. Add in the fact that you can't just tell who is also same-sex attracted by looking at them, and it tends to be immensely easier to find a partner of the opposite sex. I don't walk around announcing that I find women attractive, and neither do other people around me--well, at least women don't. On top of this, many homosexual people aren't interested in dating people who are bisexual--I don't know how much that applies to gay men but I've heard it quite a bit from lesbians.
All that to say, I think it's less a matter of bisexual people wanting to be "cool and unique" through mistaken identity claims, and more a matter of convenience. People most often date people in their geographical region and of a similar SES and cultural background--why? Because it's familiar and easy. I don't think romance for bisexual people is much different than that.
), but I did briefly date one bi woman before many years ago. It turned out that I was an experiment. It's not too fun being someone else's experiment, though we all have to start somewhere. To sum it all up, basically she wanted me to be "the man" in the relationship, as in to the point that, in her vision of our potential future together, I was supposed to earn all the money and wear a strap-on, and I let her down. She obviously wasn't representative that way, but I've known lesbians before who didn't want to date bi women at all, or at least not ones lacking prior experience dating other women, precisely because they'd had some kind of negative experience being someone else's experiment before. I guess this particular issue then becomes a vicious cycle where bi women choose male partners because lesbians won't date them and (well at least older) lesbians, in turn, won't date them because of their lack of experience dating other women. It looks like a self-reinforcing problem to me.(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly This is the kind of thing that makes me question the seriousness of many people's claims to be bi. It just seems to me like somebody has to be lying here. Probably a lot of people.
(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly To be clear, here was my line of thinking in the OP:
NOW, what I'd really like to ask you is what your take is on the first two points? I'm genuinely curious.
- A female identity crisis has swept much of the world in recent decades (mainly the 2010s) and South Korea stands out as a more developed nation that's been an exception where this got addressed largely without transgenderism.
- South Korea had a women's movement against beauty practices. We, by contrast, had a gay rights movement for marriage equality and a body positivity movement that seemed to absorb much of that same energy, drawing in the same vanguard demographics. They waged a fight against femininity and we fought for more lifestyle choices. Consider the difference in outcomes.
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Originally I had something written out to the stats you posted but going back and forth with those does not seem to lead us anywhere so if you don't mind I will stick to the part I wanted to respond to and the one you wanted a response to.
(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly This is the kind of thing that makes me question the seriousness of many people's claims to be bi. It just seems to me like somebody has to be lying here. Probably a lot of people.
(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly To be clear, here was my line of thinking in the OP:
NOW, what I'd really like to ask you is what your take is on the first two points? I'm genuinely curious.
- A female identity crisis has swept much of the world in recent decades (mainly the 2010s) and South Korea stands out as a more developed nation that's been an exception where this got addressed largely without transgenderism.
- South Korea had a women's movement against beauty practices. We, by contrast, had a gay rights movement for marriage equality and a body positivity movement that seemed to absorb much of that same energy, drawing in the same vanguard demographics. They waged a fight against femininity and we fought for more lifestyle choices. Consider the difference in outcomes.
(Jan 25 2026, 11:20 PM)Impress Polly(Jan 25 2026, 10:25 PM)ShameMustChangeSides(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly Here's what doesn't make sense to my brain though: everyone else, apparently including every single one of the "true bisexuals", is partnered with someone of the opposite sex. It's 88% versus 12% in actual lived practice
I'll chime in here as someone who is bisexual and has been for almost as long as I can remember. While "queer theorists" have made an absolute mess of the concept of "compulsory heterosexuality," it explains a lot about why I've mainly found myself romantically involved with men. Our whole society is structured around pairing women with men, and all our socialization and examples of what romance looks like happens to be based on women partnering with men. Add in the fact that you can't just tell who is also same-sex attracted by looking at them, and it tends to be immensely easier to find a partner of the opposite sex. I don't walk around announcing that I find women attractive, and neither do other people around me--well, at least women don't. On top of this, many homosexual people aren't interested in dating people who are bisexual--I don't know how much that applies to gay men but I've heard it quite a bit from lesbians.
All that to say, I think it's less a matter of bisexual people wanting to be "cool and unique" through mistaken identity claims, and more a matter of convenience. People most often date people in their geographical region and of a similar SES and cultural background--why? Because it's familiar and easy. I don't think romance for bisexual people is much different than that.
But to such an absolute degree?
To your point about many lesbians not wanting to date bi women, speaking for myself, I'm afraid I've had little actual dating experience before outside of my wife (ask me about my femcel era), but I did briefly date one bi woman before many years ago. It turned out that I was an experiment. It's not too fun being someone else's experiment, though we all have to start somewhere. To sum it all up, basically she wanted me to be "the man" in the relationship, as in to the point that, in her vision of our potential future together, I was supposed to earn all the money and wear a strap-on, and I let her down. She obviously wasn't representative that way, but I've known lesbians before who didn't want to date bi women at all, or at least not ones lacking prior experience dating other women, precisely because they'd had some kind of negative experience being someone else's experiment before. I guess this particular issue then becomes a vicious cycle where bi women choose male partners because lesbians won't date them and (well at least older) lesbians, in turn, won't date them because of their lack of experience dating other women. It looks like a self-reinforcing problem to me.
Well anyway, thanks for the additional perspective! I guess that's all I've got to add.
Quote:Magpie
And we are sitting here arguing on a feminist forum whether or not women get to know their own minds about their sexual orientation just because it isn't neatly either/or like the other two.
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(Jan 25 2026, 11:20 PM)Impress Polly(Jan 25 2026, 10:25 PM)ShameMustChangeSides(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly Here's what doesn't make sense to my brain though: everyone else, apparently including every single one of the "true bisexuals", is partnered with someone of the opposite sex. It's 88% versus 12% in actual lived practice
I'll chime in here as someone who is bisexual and has been for almost as long as I can remember. While "queer theorists" have made an absolute mess of the concept of "compulsory heterosexuality," it explains a lot about why I've mainly found myself romantically involved with men. Our whole society is structured around pairing women with men, and all our socialization and examples of what romance looks like happens to be based on women partnering with men. Add in the fact that you can't just tell who is also same-sex attracted by looking at them, and it tends to be immensely easier to find a partner of the opposite sex. I don't walk around announcing that I find women attractive, and neither do other people around me--well, at least women don't. On top of this, many homosexual people aren't interested in dating people who are bisexual--I don't know how much that applies to gay men but I've heard it quite a bit from lesbians.
All that to say, I think it's less a matter of bisexual people wanting to be "cool and unique" through mistaken identity claims, and more a matter of convenience. People most often date people in their geographical region and of a similar SES and cultural background--why? Because it's familiar and easy. I don't think romance for bisexual people is much different than that.
But to such an absolute degree?
To your point about many lesbians not wanting to date bi women, speaking for myself, I'm afraid I've had little actual dating experience before outside of my wife (ask me about my femcel era), but I did briefly date one bi woman before many years ago. It turned out that I was an experiment. It's not too fun being someone else's experiment, though we all have to start somewhere. To sum it all up, basically she wanted me to be "the man" in the relationship, as in to the point that, in her vision of our potential future together, I was supposed to earn all the money and wear a strap-on, and I let her down. She obviously wasn't representative that way, but I've known lesbians before who didn't want to date bi women at all, or at least not ones lacking prior experience dating other women, precisely because they'd had some kind of negative experience being someone else's experiment before. I guess this particular issue then becomes a vicious cycle where bi women choose male partners because lesbians won't date them and (well at least older) lesbians, in turn, won't date them because of their lack of experience dating other women. It looks like a self-reinforcing problem to me.
Well anyway, thanks for the additional perspective! I guess that's all I've got to add.
Quote:Magpie
And we are sitting here arguing on a feminist forum whether or not women get to know their own minds about their sexual orientation just because it isn't neatly either/or like the other two.
(Jan 26 2026, 8:17 AM)Magpie(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly To be clear, here was my line of thinking in the OP:
NOW, what I'd really like to ask you is what your take is on the first two points? I'm genuinely curious.
- A female identity crisis has swept much of the world in recent decades (mainly the 2010s) and South Korea stands out as a more developed nation that's been an exception where this got addressed largely without transgenderism.
- South Korea had a women's movement against beauty practices. We, by contrast, had a gay rights movement for marriage equality and a body positivity movement that seemed to absorb much of that same energy, drawing in the same vanguard demographics. They waged a fight against femininity and we fought for more lifestyle choices. Consider the difference in outcomes.
To your first point, I think in a sense that this "female identity crisis" is not truly only a recent phenomenon. It comes in waves and they tend to look different. Like how beauty trends expect women to change how they look dramatically every so often, the way women are forced to agonise over their place in the world due to misogyny also changes based on the culture at the time. For example, I would argue that women getting forced back into the home after getting a taste of a different life during the war and this leading to high rates of substance abuse should also count as a sort of female identity crisis even if it's not literally about an identity label. They got to build an identity outside the home and then it was taken from them. This interpretation is more broad than you meant it but seeing it as a longer chain of events could help to see how we can actually break it without needing the extreme circumstances women faced/are facing in South Korea.
Quote:Because I do agree with that part in your original post. Even beyond the escape the corset movement. Men go to extremes with molka, the radical feminists have an equally strong response. Any effort from the powers that be to shut their movement down only seems to fuel them with more righteous anger.
Whether it's the only thing keeping transgender ideology at bay though, I don't know. South Korea is a fairly unique country. They got to where they are very quickly. It sets them apart from other first world nations. Unlike the west I don't think they are a fertile breeding ground for the sort of consumerist, decadent ideology that is pretending to be a sex you're not.
As for point two, the west also had a women's movement, which was against beauty practices amongst other things. Just like the other two you mention it got co-opted to make money off of it. The existence of the original movements wasn't the issue, as all three in their own way had the potential to challenge gender as enforced by society. We will never know if they could ever have realised that potential because they all got turned into cash cows.
(Jan 26 2026, 8:17 AM)Magpie(Jan 25 2026, 9:02 PM)Impress Polly To be clear, here was my line of thinking in the OP:
NOW, what I'd really like to ask you is what your take is on the first two points? I'm genuinely curious.
- A female identity crisis has swept much of the world in recent decades (mainly the 2010s) and South Korea stands out as a more developed nation that's been an exception where this got addressed largely without transgenderism.
- South Korea had a women's movement against beauty practices. We, by contrast, had a gay rights movement for marriage equality and a body positivity movement that seemed to absorb much of that same energy, drawing in the same vanguard demographics. They waged a fight against femininity and we fought for more lifestyle choices. Consider the difference in outcomes.
To your first point, I think in a sense that this "female identity crisis" is not truly only a recent phenomenon. It comes in waves and they tend to look different. Like how beauty trends expect women to change how they look dramatically every so often, the way women are forced to agonise over their place in the world due to misogyny also changes based on the culture at the time. For example, I would argue that women getting forced back into the home after getting a taste of a different life during the war and this leading to high rates of substance abuse should also count as a sort of female identity crisis even if it's not literally about an identity label. They got to build an identity outside the home and then it was taken from them. This interpretation is more broad than you meant it but seeing it as a longer chain of events could help to see how we can actually break it without needing the extreme circumstances women faced/are facing in South Korea.
Quote:Because I do agree with that part in your original post. Even beyond the escape the corset movement. Men go to extremes with molka, the radical feminists have an equally strong response. Any effort from the powers that be to shut their movement down only seems to fuel them with more righteous anger.
Whether it's the only thing keeping transgender ideology at bay though, I don't know. South Korea is a fairly unique country. They got to where they are very quickly. It sets them apart from other first world nations. Unlike the west I don't think they are a fertile breeding ground for the sort of consumerist, decadent ideology that is pretending to be a sex you're not.
As for point two, the west also had a women's movement, which was against beauty practices amongst other things. Just like the other two you mention it got co-opted to make money off of it. The existence of the original movements wasn't the issue, as all three in their own way had the potential to challenge gender as enforced by society. We will never know if they could ever have realised that potential because they all got turned into cash cows.