Mother on reddit expresses her frustration with conservative woman calling her sons "girls" due to their long hair

cloven hooves The Personal Is Political Gender Critical Gender Nonconformity Social Media Mother on reddit expresses her frustration with conservative woman calling her sons "girls" due to their long hair

Social Media Mother on reddit expresses her frustration with conservative woman calling her sons "girls" due to their long hair

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Clover
Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

512

Dec 7 2024, 11:49 PM

A post on r/TraumatizeThemBack where a mother recalls an experience where a conservative woman kept insisting her sons were girls all because they had long hair. https://reddit.com/r/traumatizeThemBack/comments/1h8tlho/prude_kept_calling_my_kids_girls/

wild_serenity Several years ago, I was in line at the grocery store with my two small children, 4m and 2m. Both of them had gorgeous curly long hair that would have given Shirley Temple a run for her money.
The lady in front of us in the line kept commenting on how beautiful my girls were. I thanked her for the compliments, and that there’s nothing wrong with girls, but my kids were AMAB. She exclaimed loudly, “they’re just too pretty to be boys! They MUST be girls!”
I responded at the same level with, “well, they both had penises when I birthed them, so for now they’re boys. And boys can be pretty, too.”
As soon as the “P” word left my mouth, her eyes got huge and jaw dropped to the floor, and she turned away, obviously disgusted with me.

My boys are now 10 and 8 and they still identify as boys. If that ever changes, I will of course support them, but why correct a mother on her children’s genitalia?! That’s just weird.

Edit: I have been in a lot of pain and was just distracting myself scrolling and thought this would be a funny story to add. I did not refer to them as AMAB to the lady in line. They were born boys. I didn’t want anyone to think I was assigning genders before they decided themselves, and I phrased it wrong.
Also, I don’t scream PENIS at every person that calls my boys “girls”. I realize how androgynous children are, and generally smiled, thanked, said, “they’re boys but boys can be pretty, too”. They’d laugh or say “oh I didn’t realize! Cute boys!” Or something along those lines, and we’d all move on. This was a one time incident out of what feels like billions, and the only time I have said “penis” loudly and clearly enough for several people around us could hear, *after* I had politely thanked her twice and she *still* insisted, loudly, that they had to be girls.

Maybe I chose the wrong flair

Of course, the post is written to appease transgender ideology. But I'm glad she told off the regressive woman.

Other commenters share their experiences with conservative promotion of gender conformity.

NiobeTonks Holy crap. I had a similar experience when I was 8 or 9, because I had short hair. People kept calling me lad or sonny. I did get upset because even though I had short hair and mostly wore jeans except for school or church, I knew I was a girl, but I wasn’t allowed to talk back to adults. That, by the way, was in the 1970s.

Morrigan_twicked_48 People are so stupid about children . When I was four I decided that I wanted to be a boy because girls had too many people telling them what to do and being a boy was easier . I got my long hair cut like the boy in Kramer v Kramer movie and I got boys clothes . My mom and my grandfather thought -ok fair enough then . Not a big deal . Then when I was seven I decided I wanted to be a girl as I fell in love with heels and makeup . Ok then. No one made a big deal of either .

Except teachers and stupid adults who don’t get children will do things out of their own bat .

This exchange reveals the inconsistencies of transgender ideology:

JaguarZealousideal55 My baby brother spent a few months wearing pigtails and wanting to be called a girl name. We did as he asked. Turned out the name was of a woman who was very good at a sport he liked, so he wanted to be like her. He grew up to be all male. This was in the 1980s and hardly anyone had even heard of trans where I grew up. We just said "OK" because he wanted it and he could decide for himself (maybe 6 y o, I think?)

"He grew up to be all male." He would always have grown up to be all male.

"This was in the 1980s and hardly anyone had even heard of trans where I grew up. We just said "OK" because he wanted it and he could decide for himself (maybe 6 y o, I think?)" I find this (and pucemoon's follow-up comment) to be a bit "it hurts itself in confusion" in regards to trying to support (trans)gender ideology. Yes, their brother grew up in the 80s with parents who were progressive in the sense they did not mind gender non-conformity in their child. That is good. There is no reason why it matters that "trans wasn't around" back then, because trans isn't about being accepting of such gender non-conformity. If anything, it would have been the polar opposite. In the modern day, if these parents were of the "so open minded their brains fall out" kind of "progressive" that believes in the Gospel of Trans, this boy would have gotten the Jazz Jennings treatment.

Another user then replies in agreement, in a more blatant attempt to minimize the damage of transgender ideology:

pucemoon Right? Like a 4 year old can decide they're a lion or an elephant and nobody bats an eye.

Let them decide they want to explore a different gender and all of a sudden there's legislation.

This is quite the "it hurts itself in confusion" attempt to defend transgender ideology. The user seems to acknowledge adults don't care if kids pretend to be elephants or lions, because they know they're just playing pretend. Then the user tries to somehow equivocate parents not caring if their child is gender nonconforming (which is healthy and progressive) to parents encouraging children that if they want to mimic the stereotypes of the other sex they actually are the other sex via magical gender souls (actually not healthy or progressive). Legislating safeguards from children getting put on off-label drugs to stop puberty, cross-sex hormones, and unnecessary and damaging cosmetic surgeries is not the same as legislating against gender nonconformity.

Does the user not understand that by equating "exploring gender" with "kids pretending to be lions and elephants" they essentially are suggesting that there can't be "trans kids"? I mean, that's great, I guess we're on the same page then — let kids be kids.

This Reddit post and its comments are a great example of how both conservatives and neoliberals both support regressive gender norms (and a bonus of how transgender ideology is logically inconsistent).

The conservative woman in the OP believes OP's sons are girls because long hair = girls.

The pro-trans supporters in the comments appear to support gender nonconformity until their logic short-circuits in order to validate and uphold transgender ideology.

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Clover

Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

Dec 7 2024, 11:49 PM #1

wild_serenity Several years ago, I was in line at the grocery store with my two small children, 4m and 2m. Both of them had gorgeous curly long hair that would have given Shirley Temple a run for her money.
The lady in front of us in the line kept commenting on how beautiful my girls were. I thanked her for the compliments, and that there’s nothing wrong with girls, but my kids were AMAB. She exclaimed loudly, “they’re just too pretty to be boys! They MUST be girls!”
I responded at the same level with, “well, they both had penises when I birthed them, so for now they’re boys. And boys can be pretty, too.”
As soon as the “P” word left my mouth, her eyes got huge and jaw dropped to the floor, and she turned away, obviously disgusted with me.

My boys are now 10 and 8 and they still identify as boys. If that ever changes, I will of course support them, but why correct a mother on her children’s genitalia?! That’s just weird.

Edit: I have been in a lot of pain and was just distracting myself scrolling and thought this would be a funny story to add. I did not refer to them as AMAB to the lady in line. They were born boys. I didn’t want anyone to think I was assigning genders before they decided themselves, and I phrased it wrong.
Also, I don’t scream PENIS at every person that calls my boys “girls”. I realize how androgynous children are, and generally smiled, thanked, said, “they’re boys but boys can be pretty, too”. They’d laugh or say “oh I didn’t realize! Cute boys!” Or something along those lines, and we’d all move on. This was a one time incident out of what feels like billions, and the only time I have said “penis” loudly and clearly enough for several people around us could hear, *after* I had politely thanked her twice and she *still* insisted, loudly, that they had to be girls.

Maybe I chose the wrong flair

NiobeTonks Holy crap. I had a similar experience when I was 8 or 9, because I had short hair. People kept calling me lad or sonny. I did get upset because even though I had short hair and mostly wore jeans except for school or church, I knew I was a girl, but I wasn’t allowed to talk back to adults. That, by the way, was in the 1970s.

Morrigan_twicked_48 People are so stupid about children . When I was four I decided that I wanted to be a boy because girls had too many people telling them what to do and being a boy was easier . I got my long hair cut like the boy in Kramer v Kramer movie and I got boys clothes . My mom and my grandfather thought -ok fair enough then . Not a big deal . Then when I was seven I decided I wanted to be a girl as I fell in love with heels and makeup . Ok then. No one made a big deal of either .

Except teachers and stupid adults who don’t get children will do things out of their own bat .

This exchange reveals the inconsistencies of transgender ideology:

JaguarZealousideal55 My baby brother spent a few months wearing pigtails and wanting to be called a girl name. We did as he asked. Turned out the name was of a woman who was very good at a sport he liked, so he wanted to be like her. He grew up to be all male. This was in the 1980s and hardly anyone had even heard of trans where I grew up. We just said "OK" because he wanted it and he could decide for himself (maybe 6 y o, I think?)

pucemoon Right? Like a 4 year old can decide they're a lion or an elephant and nobody bats an eye.

Let them decide they want to explore a different gender and all of a sudden there's legislation.

Kozlik's regular member account. 🍀🐐

YesYourNigel

Dec 9 2024, 11:20 AM

Something that bothers me about a lot of posts like these is how often they promote the idea (and this tends to specifically be in regards to female GNC) that being GNC is completely normal and accepted.

This is almost always said by very conventional gender-conforming women who think they are somehow unusual for either having had a "tomboy phase" that they outgrew in favour of femininity, or some kind of minor male-typical interest on top of a gender conforming presentation (like idk, she's feminine but also knows how to change oil in a car). Or alternatively, women who only really saw a tomboy at some point, never thought about GNC and concluded that no-one cares just because the tomboy existed or sth. It's kind of infuriating because it makes it seem as if this is somehow groundbreaking when in reality, tomboys growing up to be feminine is the default expectation. People are more tolerant of little kids not wanting to conform to stuffy norms, and being allowed a grace period doesn't mean GNC is normal and accepted for women. I wish more of these conversations were either critical of these norms, or heralded by people who don't end their posts with "Yeah I didn't grow up to identify as a man because I learned to like pink and high heels and makeup like a real woman, tee-hee". That is playing right into trans ideology where being GNC is a sign of somehow being the opposite sex, and as a corollary, learning to accept your sex is equated with embracing gender roles.

In GC spaces it also paints a contradictory image of the world where female people are simultaneously so confined and stressed out as a result of patriarchal limitations that they're drawn to transition, but also a world where being GNC is completely normal for women and no-one bats an eye or treats you any differently regardless of what you do. It doesn't add up, and I think the reason for it is that the "You can just be GNC and no-one will care" statement gets repeated by conservatives who live in la-la land where all the SJW's have made society into a utopia of acceptance and patriarchal pressures don't exist outside of hysterical women's paranoid minds, and all the feminine women keep coincidentally ending up feminine completely of their own accord.

I take similar issue with the oft-repeated statistic where most people grow out of their gender troubles. Don't get me wrong, it's certainly a good point against the gender-soul fueled ideas: GNC is not some innate metaphysical thing, but rather a typical part of children's exploration of norms and identity. And even if trans people insist that their GNC involves real gendersouls that employ a totally different kind of magical system, it still shows just how harmful and destructive entertaining these ideas and social contagion can be for the vast, vast majority of children who do not fit that category (ofc the fact that there is no observable difference between poser transtrenders' fake gendersouls and totally real scientifically proven and evidence-based "because I feel it inside" true gendersouls should make anyone pause, but nvm that)

However, ultimately this statistic seems to show people kind of just accepting their assigned gender roles and going along with them, instead of pushing back. They seem to either get exhausted or too alienated and they successfully succomb to years of brainwashing. When I hear of yet another girl who grew up as a normal kid but eventually decided totally all on her own with her super unique snowflake identity that she reallyreallyreally likes pink and makeup and heels that are coincidentally just in line with female gender roles, and coincidentally make her feel invisible or ugly for not entertaining, it just makes me sad.

And you see the same thing with detransitioners, where you'd think these women would have an appreciation of female GNC but instead they start obsessing over makeup and long hair and feminine clothes and being "seen as a woman"...Admittedly this is a group that is already predisposed to revolving their lives around matching gender roles and people's expectations to the point of drugs and surgeries, but still, it depresses me when so many of these alternatives to trans ideology end up being "just keep your head down and eat your gender roles like a big girl".

Quote:Of course, the post is written to appease transgender ideology. But I'm glad she told off the regressive woman.

Can I just say lol at her trying to be supportive but not realising that saying that someone is a boy because they have a penis is considered transphobic? Normies still think penis=man, no penis=woman is the accepted wisdom among trans people who just want to get their castration surgeries. The assumption that castrating oneself somehow turns you into the opposite sex is already misogynistic on its own, but it at least makes more superficial sense (sex organs being defining of sex, after all) than literally doing nothing at all with your genitals and just insisting that penises are womanly now because you have enough secondary superficial characteristics to kind of sort of resemble the opposite sex.

Edited Dec 11 2024, 7:28 AM by YesYourNigel.

YesYourNigel

Dec 9 2024, 11:20 AM #2

Quote:Of course, the post is written to appease transgender ideology. But I'm glad she told off the regressive woman.

komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde

165

Dec 9 2024, 3:22 PM

Thanks for sharing, Clover. This is an issue I'm familiar with, as a tall, apparently androgynous-looking woman who gets "misgendered" (mis-sexed) all the time. My personal experience has been that hair length is the #1 thing that people use to "assign" me a gender. When I have my hair cut short, I get "sir"ed all the time, sometimes regardless of how I'm dressed. (I've got all kinds of stories about this...)

I think part of the namby-pambyness of the replies is because these people haven't peaked yet. Many of them are "good liberals" who understand that equating long hair with being a woman is regressive, but they willfully avoid thinking about what that implies about transgender ideology. It's obviously sexist to say that identifying with gendered stereotypes literally makes you that gender, and being sexist is bad, so no one on "their side" would ever say such a thing—which means they have to bury their heads in the sand and ignore all the discourse where trans people do exactly that. But it's uncomfortable to exist in this state of constant cognitive dissonance, which is part of why they lash out or resort to obviously faulty logic when defending their positions.

Edit: Forgot I wanted to link this relevant piece by Victoria Smith!

Edited Dec 9 2024, 3:26 PM by komorebi. Edit Reason: adding link to relevant article

komorebi

“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde

Dec 9 2024, 3:22 PM #3

Clover
Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

512

Dec 11 2024, 12:54 PM

YesYourNigel Something that bothers me about a lot of posts like these is how often they promote the idea (and this tends to specifically be in regards to female GNC) that being GNC is completely normal and accepted. [...] It's kind of infuriating because it makes it seem as if this is somehow groundbreaking when in reality, tomboys growing up to be feminine is the default expectation.

Yeah! This is actually something I wanted to get into in my OP with Reddit user's Morrigan_twicked_48's post where she says:

Quote:When I was four I decided that I wanted to be a boy because girls had too many people telling them what to do and being a boy was easier . I got my long hair cut like the boy in Kramer v Kramer movie and I got boys clothes . My mom and my grandfather thought -ok fair enough then . Not a big deal . Then when I was seven I decided I wanted to be a girl as I fell in love with heels and makeup . Ok then. No one made a big deal of either .

I mean, I wanted to say of course nobody made a big deal when a seven year old girl "fell in love" with "heels and makeup", she is performing the femininity expected of her. And does this user not realize how messed up it is that she as a four-year-old realized boys got away with more stuff (male privilege), and that she wanted to emulate them because of that?

She makes her post like neither of these based-in-gender things she did when she was a child are "a big deal," but I think they really are. It shows that even children can see how sexist the world is at four years old!

YesYourNigel However, ultimately this statistic seems to show people kind of just accepting their assigned gender roles and going along with them, instead of pushing back. They seem to either get exhausted or too alienated and they successfully succomb to years of brainwashing. [...] it depresses me when so many of these alternatives to trans ideology end up being "just keep your head down and eat your gender roles like a big girl".

I agree, and I share your concerns about studies claiming children "grow out of their gender distress." They seem completely devoid of feminist/gender critical thought, it's like what am I supposed to believe? That female children just ended up deciding to put up with society's expectations of female subordination? Am I supposed to view that as a win?

This artificial dichotomy of "rebuke traditional gender roles by becoming trans" (which, as we understand here, is not actually "rebuking" gender roles, it is just continuing to conform to them modern fashion) or "embrace traditional gender roles as expected by society at large" is depressing. That's why I've been so fed up with "conservative anti-trans" engulfing the gender critical movement.

komorebi I think part of the namby-pambyness of the replies is because these people haven't peaked yet. Many of them are "good liberals" who understand that equating long hair with being a woman is regressive, but they willfully avoid thinking about what that implies about transgender ideology. It's obviously sexist to say that identifying with gendered stereotypes literally makes you that gender, and being sexist is bad, so no one on "their side" would ever say such a thing—which means they have to bury their heads in the sand and ignore all the discourse where trans people do exactly that. But it's uncomfortable to exist in this state of constant cognitive dissonance, which is part of why they lash out or resort to obviously faulty logic when defending their positions.

Definitely, I think so too. There are so many inconsistencies in transgender ideology, but I understand these people wanting to appear to be tolerant and accepting, so when faced with questions or people pointing out flaws in transgender logic, it's like they short circuit and can only assume the person who isn't completely pro-trans is some sort of evil conservative fascist with magic manipulative witch powers.

I think these types of people are worried about the paradox of tolerance, but completely fail to understand that transgenderism itself is an intolerance to be intolerant of. Actual gender critical people, not the anti-trans (& pro-gender) conservatives, are not intolerant of men having stereotypically feminine appearances, hobbies, interests etc. (and vice versa for women and stereotypically "masculine" traits), we simply acknowledge that does not make them women, which is what "gender" is, and what we are critical of. I don't want transgender-identifying people to be bullied, ostracized, shunned from society. I am not intolerant towards gender non-conformity or whatever else. Look how you want, have whatever interests you want, have whatever friends you want, just stop dismantling women's sex-based rights and stop demanding society forget about biological sex as a reality.

Edited Dec 11 2024, 12:54 PM by Clover.

Clover

Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

Dec 11 2024, 12:54 PM #4

YesYourNigel Something that bothers me about a lot of posts like these is how often they promote the idea (and this tends to specifically be in regards to female GNC) that being GNC is completely normal and accepted. [...] It's kind of infuriating because it makes it seem as if this is somehow groundbreaking when in reality, tomboys growing up to be feminine is the default expectation.

Yeah! This is actually something I wanted to get into in my OP with Reddit user's Morrigan_twicked_48's post where she says:

Quote:When I was four I decided that I wanted to be a boy because girls had too many people telling them what to do and being a boy was easier . I got my long hair cut like the boy in Kramer v Kramer movie and I got boys clothes . My mom and my grandfather thought -ok fair enough then . Not a big deal . Then when I was seven I decided I wanted to be a girl as I fell in love with heels and makeup . Ok then. No one made a big deal of either .

YesYourNigel However, ultimately this statistic seems to show people kind of just accepting their assigned gender roles and going along with them, instead of pushing back. They seem to either get exhausted or too alienated and they successfully succomb to years of brainwashing. [...] it depresses me when so many of these alternatives to trans ideology end up being "just keep your head down and eat your gender roles like a big girl".

komorebi I think part of the namby-pambyness of the replies is because these people haven't peaked yet. Many of them are "good liberals" who understand that equating long hair with being a woman is regressive, but they willfully avoid thinking about what that implies about transgender ideology. It's obviously sexist to say that identifying with gendered stereotypes literally makes you that gender, and being sexist is bad, so no one on "their side" would ever say such a thing—which means they have to bury their heads in the sand and ignore all the discourse where trans people do exactly that. But it's uncomfortable to exist in this state of constant cognitive dissonance, which is part of why they lash out or resort to obviously faulty logic when defending their positions.

YesYourNigel

Dec 11 2024, 2:39 PM

Quote:of course nobody made a big deal when a seven year old girl "fell in love" with "heels and makeup", she is performing the femininity expected of her.

This is also the kind of shit that gender nonconforming turbo NotLikeOtherGirls TIFs will use to claim that they somehow grew up without gender roles, because "no-one cared" when they were tomboys and the fact that they grew up wanting to chop their sexualised breasts off is just because of their special super-real boysoul and not due to the same exact objectification placed on every other woman, yes, even the snowflake NotLikeOtherGirls who think they should get special treatment because they, gasp, don't like being objectified! Stop the presses! This one girl feels her inner gender unicorn get distressed from misogyny and poke at her spleen with its horn (it's a real medical condition!!!), so everyone please treat her as an equal and not like those other stupid vain girls, pretty please with cherry on top 🥺

I've even seen TIFs claim that, because they refused to wear bras as little girls, it proves they were boys inside. Yes, no other girl has ever felt stifled by needing to always cover what should be a completely nonsexual part of their anatomy. You're the only girl to have ever felt this way.
Christ imagine how different women's lives would be if they realised the true extent of the trauma that gender roles create in all of us. Not just in "bad women" or "irresponsible women" or "partying women" or "great women" or "activist women" but literally every. single. one.

Quote:does this user not realize how messed up it is that she as a four-year-old realized boys got away with more stuff (male privilege), and that she wanted to emulate them because of that?

It's ok, if you realise that you'll always be inherrently lesser as a girl, that's just your normal privileged cis experience. But if you realise you'll always be inherrently lesser as a girl, but can either hide your sex enough around your bros or have them deem you "unfuckable" enough to be "one of the boys", or alternatively just hang around terminally online girls who'll tell you 😘 you're valid 😘 ad nauseum because they don't want to hurt your feelings, then that's completely different!
Your identical self-hatred and misogyny-defined life is now actually due to a conflict with your inner special boysoul and is conveniently completely independed from any of those crazy militant feminazi politics that your bros mock and that women don't want to focus on so they wouldn't get dogpiled for how self-centered and non-intersectional they are! You just want to be a NORMAL dude without your existence being a political act! That desire is SO unheard of for women and can only be explained by boysouls!

Quote:I share your concerns about studies claiming children "grow out of their gender distress."

The thing is, I used to think these studies meant that children grew up to comprehend the more complex option that they can be GNC without changing their sex (also once they move past the baby-level understanding of sex and learn basic biology that makes it obvious very quickly that sex change is a figment of imagination). But I just never see these people. Instead of straight women learning to be butch, we get even butch lesbians nowadays tending towards being femme so libfems wouldn't freak out over their "internalised misogyny". Detransitioners are just insecure women doing a 180 into hyperfemininity, and even TIFs are starting to identify as "femboys" and "demiboys", and don't get me started on feminine alt-girls calling themselves nonbinary. I don't see any trace of girls and women realising they don't have to be feminine. In fact, beauty standards and the accompanying self-hatred are worse than they've ever been due to social media, AI and filters, and more and more porn and intersectionality telling women to shut up and stop oppressing people who get off to patriarchal roleplaying (and it's just roleplaying, it's completely unrelated to real life patriarchy running the majority of people's thinking).

At best you might see a geeky or fandom-involved neutral girl in a beanie and an oversized plaid shirt trying to hide her body who's terrified of her own shadow and traumatised by social interaction, and thinks this proves she's some brand of non-woman unlike "normal" half-naked women shaking their asses in music videos. Like...I'm glad they're at least avoiding femininity, but I want a world where women gain confidence and power from their gender nonconformity, instead of just trying to make themselves invisible and disappear. It's clear that the cost of GNC is a hefty dose of societal alienation because liberal feminism really hates any rejection or treatment of femininity as something bad. So "masculine" women get ignored or written off as "bleh, to each their own, I guess" or get side-eyed for their "internalised misogyny". To some degree I understand the scepticism because a lot of GNC women are motivated by NotLikeOtherGirls-ism, but in this case it's a very obvious example of libfems trying to turn femininity into some kind of persecuted cultural identity.

Quote:it's like they short circuit and can only assume the person who isn't completely pro-trans is some sort of evil conservative fascist with magic manipulative witch powers.

Unfortunately the way that politics work now, that's become the reality. Ovarit has completely sold women out to conservatives, who have started appropriating the Gender Critical moniker for their piece of shit patriarchal ideology, much like how liberal feminism has sold women out to horny men and any other kind of man that claims more oppression points than those selfish Karens. Every time I see someone criticise trans shit, I brace myself to see a conservative conspiracy theory follow, or whining about how men or women aren't what they used to be in the good ol' days of wifebeating and male fistfights around every corner.

Edited Dec 11 2024, 2:50 PM by YesYourNigel.