Social Media Rebuttal to nothorses "TERF beliefs" posts
Social Media Rebuttal to nothorses "TERF beliefs" posts
Apr 29 2025, 5:00 PM
So here is my attempt at responding to each of these claims by this TRA. If anyone wants to chime in they are more than welcome, I can make edits and we can build this rebuttal up together.
All my comments are in [purple brackets].
nothorses It is deeply, deeply beneficial to TERFs if the only characteristic of TERF ideology you will recognize as wrong, harmful, or problematic is "they hate trans women".
[Yeah, this is true, it causes TRAs to have weak arguments when all they do is tell each other to "block and stay safe" against TERFs, and thusly have to make up boogeyman "arguments" against radical feminism to tell each other.]
TERF ideology is an expansive network of extremely toxic ideas, and the more of them we accept and normalize, the easier it becomes for them to fly under the radar and recruit new TERFs. The closer they get to turning the tide against all trans people, trans women included.
["TERF ideology is an expansive network of extremely toxic ideas" — would love to see a list of these "extremely toxic ideas". (If it was the 27 items later mentioned, I'm not very impressed.) TRAs turn the tide against trans people themselves. So many people peak by just looking at transgender subreddits/online communities, or the entitlement of men who demand others view them as women who then go on to make the news by taking women's places in scholarships, institutions, shelters, and competitive sports, to name a few categories.]
Case in point: In 2014-2015, I fell headlong into radical feminism. I did not know it was called radical feminism at the time, but I also didn't know what was wrong with radical feminism in the first place. I didn't see a problem with it.
[So what was the problem..?]
I was a year deep into this shit when people I had been following, listening to, and looking up to finally said they didn't think trans women were women. It was only then that I unfollowed those people, specifically; but I continued to follow other TERFs-who-didn't-say-they-were-TERFs. I continued ingesting and spreading their ideas- for years after.
[Oh, so the "problem" was these feminist women finally called a spade a spade and said men who pretend to be women aren't really women. Like most people believe, but keep to themselves.]
If TERFs "only target trans women" and "only want trans women gone", if that's the one and only problem with their ideology and if that's the only way we'll define them, we will inevitably miss a vast majority of the quiet beliefs that support their much louder hatred of trans women.
[Acknowledging that a man who calls himself a woman is not a woman is not "hatred." Radical feminists want "transwomen" "gone" from women's spaces. They are free to use men's spaces, as they always have had the right to, as they are of the male sex.]
As another example: the trans community stood relatively united when TERFs and conservatives targeted our right to use the correct restroom, citing the "dangers" of trans women sharing space with cis women. But when they began targeting Lost Little Girls and Confused Lesbians and trotting detransitioners out to raise a panic about trans men, virtually the only people speaking up about it were other transmascs. Now we see a rash of anti-trans healthcare bills being passed in the US, and they're hurting every single one of us.
[I like how the OP completely diminishes the staggering rate of ROGD in young girls as "Lost Little Girls" (I think this is also to make any young transgender identifying girls reading this post think "well I'm not a little girl!" and go further into the trans community), and minimizing the experiences of detransitioners ("trotting detransitioners") who now possibly have permanent unnecessary changes to their body and physical health side-effects. As if it's preposterous for people to possibly be concerned about the long-term health effects of cosmetic hormonal and surgical procedures that are based on a bunch of sexist stereotypes, no no, it must all be part of some evil "transphobic agenda."]
When you refuse to call a TERF a TERF just because they didn't specifically say they hate trans women, when you refuse to think critically about a TERF belief just because it's not directly related to trans women, you are actively helping TERFs spread their influence and build credibility.
[By all means, please keep screaming "TERF" at feminist women, it just helps radical feminism get more recognition. I highly encourage people to think critically about any a "TERF belief" — please, think critically about all beliefs! Ask critical questions to those part of a political movement! Do it to everyone, radical feminists and transgender ideologists alike! Asking questions is how we learn and grow. Also check out the kindrad FAQ: https://kindrad.org/questions]
rickiflannel-deactivated2021081 what is some TERF ideology we should be on the look out for?
nothorses This isn't comprehensive, but I'll do my best.
TERFs are, first and foremost, radical feminists. Radical feminism is essentially second-wave feminism without the intersectionality brought in by third-wave feminism. It believes that patriarchy is at fault for the oppression of women, but sees this in a very strict, binary way: women are the oppressed, and men are the oppressors.
[Yes, TERFs are supposed to be radical feminists, it's in the name. (I say "supposed to be" because TRAs labeling every MAGA wingnut or tradwife on X a "TERF" kind of causes it lose its meaning). Intersectionality started in the second wave, with prominent second-wave intersectional feminists like Audre Lorde..? Yes, radical feminists believe patriarchy is at fault for the oppression of women. Yes, women are the oppressed class, and men are the oppressor class. I assume this user's view of "intersectional feminism" is "Tumblrized intersectionality," discussed in this Jane Clare Jones article: https://janeclarejones.com/2018/08/27/trans-activism-and-intersectional-feminism/]
TERFs use this to justify their specific brand of transphobia. This idea, among others, is essential in supporting that transphobia.
[This makes it seem like "TERFs" main focus is to spread "transphobia," when the concept of patriarchy being the root of women's oppression has existed longer than the modern concept of "transphobia." Radical feminists care about women's liberation and ending sex-based oppression. Transgender beliefs happen to go against radical feminist values, due to transgenderism's support of gender and gender conformity.]
I'll try to outline some of those ideas, and some of the logical thruoughlines they use:
1. Women are uniquely oppressed, and always in danger. Womanhood- or the experience of being a woman- is defined by oppression, misogyny, and Being In Danger.
[1: Yeah, women are uniquely oppressed on the virtue of their sex. The part about them being "always in danger" is kind of some sort of weird scare tactic. But yes women as a class are more likely to be in danger due to the misogyny of men as a class. There are overwhelming numerous statistical studies done across the planet that showed that men are consistently dangerous to women. The part about "womanhood" or "the experience of being a woman" being defined in such a narrow narrow seems typical of a TRA, because transgenderism is the belief that womanhood can be defined in any such quantifiable way so that men can somehow "claim womanhood." I think it also tries to set it up such that radical feminists are just constantly in misery. I mean yeah, being a woman in a misogynistic patriarchal society is pretty miserable, but it's not what completely "defines us" as female human beings... We are more than the misery men inflict on us.]
2. Women are particularly in danger in the presence of, and in relationships with, men. Spaces that exclude men are essential to preserving the safety of women.
[2: Yeah, kind of. Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men is an extremely valuable knowledge resource for all women.]
3. Socialization: men are raised to support patriarchy, while women are raised to be subjugated by it. Men have no motive to unlearn these lessons, so all men are inherently more corrupted by these lessons than women.
[3: Sure.]
4. Relationships with men are therefore inherently (more likely to be) abusive, and relationships with women are inherently safe(er).
[4: Yep on the men's part, only somewhat true on the women's part if we are comparing their relationship statistically to a relationship with a man. Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men is an extremely valuable knowledge resource for all women. Women are capable of abusing other women, and Lundy Bancroft's book actually does even point out the book can be applicable for women in same-sex relationships.]
5. Sex, in particular, is more often exploitative than not. Only some kinds of sex are not exploitative. Many kinds of sex that we think are consensual, or that people say are consensual, are either rape or proto-rape.
[5: Yep.]
6. Exchanging money for sex is inherently rape/exploitation/non-consensual in some way.
[6: Yep. If the only reason someone is having sex with you is because you paid them money, then you are a rapist. Prostitution exploits women. Prostitution is paid rape.]
7. As women who deny men access to them, lesbians are The Most Oppressed and also The Most Endangered. They must be protected at all costs.
[7: A kind of patronizing claim to make radical feminist seem like white knights. Also calling lesbians "endangered" is rather gross and dehumanizing. "The most oppressed": there are no hierarchies of oppression. Lesbian's rights to not be forced to have sex with men should be protected at all costs. Because rape is wrong.]
8. Because so many women have been raped by men with penises, both men and penises are inherently traumatic to A Lot Of Women.
[8: Yeah, so? Leave those women be.]
9. Many lesbians will naturally have an aversion to relationships with trans women because of this. Trans women who argue against this "genital preference" are potential rapists trying to infiltrate lesbian spaces to hurt and take advantage of women.
[9: Yep. "Transwomen" are men, they cannot be lesbians. "Transwomen" who try to make lesbian women have sex with them are rapists.]
10. Men will always try to invade "women's spaces" to take advantage of women, endanger them, and strip away their resources both for personal gain/pleasure, and in service of upholding the patriarchy.
[10: Yep.]
11. If we allow men to say they are women, they will invade those spaces and hurt "real" women. Men who say they are women are dangerous, and must be excluded and punished.
[11: Yeah, this is plausible, and has already been documented as happening in various news sources. Men who say they are women can be dangerous. I'm not sure what it meant by they "must be excluded", as in, from women's bathrooms, sports, scholarships, prisons, changing rooms, etc? Yes, they need to go utilize the men's versions of those things. As for punished, I'm not sure what it means either, but probably a boogeyman to force team radical feminists with Republicans/conservatives, who generally support the harsh punishments like the death penalty. Radical feminists, and women in general, ask that men please respect women's sex-based rights and spaces.]
12. Men may try to obfuscate labels and terminology to "define women out of existence" or otherwise cause confusion, which they can manipulate to further their infiltration.
[12: Yep. It would be great if men could stop doing that. Women are adult female humans. We deserve sex-based rights and protected spaces.]
13. Women are all miserable with their bodies, cursed with the pressure to reproduce and have sex with men.
[13: Starts with a lie and ends with a truth, so a half-truth. Radical feminists do not believe all women are miserable with their bodies. That's strange. And it's also strange because don't transgender people try to convince people that they're miserable with their innate bodies and want to change them through hormones and cosmetic surgeries..? Patriarchy and sexism are what might make women miserable with their bodies. I think a lot of radical feminists support body neutrality movements.]
14. Women are all miserable with their genders, forced as they are to ensure the overwhelming and constant suffering that is patriarchy.
[14: Somewhat true, but operates off the transgenderist belief that "genders" are a valid thing that people "choose" and not a means of oppression, tools of the patriarchy, themselves.]
15. Women will attempt to escape this misery and pressure by "becoming men". This is cowardly, but understandable; a tragic but inevitable result of patriarchy. These women must be saved.
[15: I assume this is in reference to transgender-identifying women and girls ("transmen"). I think this is somewhat true, but intentionally written in a way that is patronizing. Writing it as "these women must be saved" implies some sort of "savior complex," and implies that radical feminists do not believe women deserve autonomy, that they are damsels in distress. That is like white knight incel shit. Radical feminists do try to encourage young women and girls to avoid transgenderism as an attempt to escape misogyny, they do that by making support groups and websites and ways to connect with other women who may have felt that transitioning was a way for them to escape a sexist society. I think some of this is trying to equate Christian conservative type folks who think women need to be "protected" in a patronizing sense rather than in a radical feminist sense that women need to stick together and help each other through living in a patriarchy.]
16. Some women who try to escape patriarchy are doing it out of self-interest; they are betraying women by becoming men, and contributing to their oppression. These women must be punished.
[16: Strange and confusing nonsense. Why would radical feminists, whose political mission is to liberate women from their oppression and from patriarchy, think that women who try to escape patriarchy are betraying women? Maybe this is the OP's way of trying to scare transgender identifying women and girls ("transmen") and to avoiding radical feminism? No, radical feminists do not believe that transgender identifying women and girls "must be punished." I think it is more the transgenderist movement that wishes to "punish" detransitioners and desisters for "making their movement look bad"... And I'm honestly very confused why it's even wrong for women to want to escape the patriarchy out of self-interest, why would I be upset at women wanting to escape their oppression? Why would I be upset at anyone wanting to escape any oppression that they face? So strange.]
17. Bio-essentialism: women are oppressed specifically because of their bodies and ability to reproduce. This is an inherent and defining part of womanhood. Nobody can claim womanhood without this experience, everyone who has had this experience is a woman.
[17: This whole claim is just wrong on different levels. First of all the definition of biological essentialism is wrong, which is something TRAs constantly do. Here is a good article that explains the actual definition of biological essentialism: https://radicailin.com/what-the-hell-does-biological-essentialist-mean/
The "no one can claim womanhood without this experience" part is incorrect, because it is based on the transgenderist notion that people can just "claim womanhood." No one can "claim womanhood." If you are female and age enough to become an adult, you are a woman. You don't have to claim anything. Tada.]
18. Women's bodies are all beautiful and perfect because they are women's bodies. If the womanliness of them is tampered with, they become less valuable. Men's bodies are gross and undesirable symbols of patriarchy.
[18: lol. I think this is pulled off of some mix of seeing a lot of "divine feminine" (spiritual woman-centered stuff, not explicitly radical feminism) posts, female body positivity posts, as well as blackpill feminist posts (infamous for roasting men). This whole claim of "if the womanliness is tampered it becomes less valuable" just sounds like gross conservative Christian talk. So, that's probably from reading posts from anti-trans conservatives and labeling them as TERFs/radfems.]
19. Testosterone makes people violent, aggressive, irrational, and angry. Estrogen makes people calm, kind, and happy.
[19: This one is odd, because it starts to veer into biological essentialism, which radical feminists don't endorse, but also because there are countless instances of transgender identifying people themselves making these claims..? So I'm not sure why radical feminists are the ones being accused of having this idea, when a brief cursory glance at any of the transgender subreddits where they share their experiences of what it was like to take hormones, you can find transgender identifying people claiming such things about taking hormones. That's kind of on the trans community...]
20. Men can never understand women's bodies as well as other women do.
[20: Yeah lol.]
21. People can be attracted to other people on the basis of "sex" alone. This is inherent, immutable, and unquestionable.
[21: I'm not really sure what this means. Does this person think radical feminists think any straight woman is attracted to any man just because they have a penis..? Or that any lesbian is attracted to any woman just because they have a vagina..? There's clearly more at play with people's attraction to each other than just genitals. But if the OP is trying to hand wave the transgender movements attempts to correctively rape lesbians by making them think "women can have penises" and that their sexuality is a mere "genital preference", yeah, radical feminist strongly stand by the stands that lesbians are women (female humans) who are sexually attracted to other women (female humans).]
22. Men are sexual animals who inherently and unavoidably find lots of bad things sexually arousing. Because "youth" is attractive, many men find young girls and children attractive, and will try to take advantage of them. Misogynistic control/power over women, hurting women, and even rape are also inherently sexually appealing to men.
[22: The first sentence is kinda veering towards biological essentialism (and obvious dehumanization), and probably based on women venting about men being sadistic and pornsick. Second sentence, yes. Third sentence, yes. Totally. One only needs to look at the overwhelming amount of disgusting violent misogynistic porn, and "barely legal"/"teen porn" easily available nowadays to see this. Check out https://www.tumblr.com/boysandmenconsumethis for some statistical data.]
23. "Gender" is meaningless; it's founded in misogynistic stereotypes about men and women, and when you remove the stereotypes, there's nothing left at all. Only binary "sex" is real, because that's what patriarchy (and biology) is based on.
[23: Starts off somewhat true (some radical feminists would probably argue with the claim that gender is "meaningless" as there is certainly a lot of meaning held to it in order to enforce patriarchy and sexism), then ends strangely starting with "there's nothing left at all." I mean, it's kind of a weird way to put it I think, because once you remove the gender stereotypes from people, we are just left with people. Human beings, who happen to be male and female. I wouldn't call that "nothing left at all." I assume this is part of some strange belief that if gender was abolished, we'd all be like gray blobby people with no personal aesthetic or something..? There is also a strange force-teaming of patriarchy and biology at the end, as if because patriarchy is based on the sex based oppression of women, therefore biology is bad too..? But, yes, patriarchy is built on the subjugation and oppression of female people, and female is one of the two sexes in humans.]
24. Manhood is itself a toxic, oppressive, inherently corrupting concept. Anyone who participates in manhood is corrupt and immoral; who would choose to be the oppressor?
[24: This seems to be a spot where TRAs utilize biological essentialism, they are equivocating "manhood" and "masculinity." Assuming, that is, "manhood" here means "being male." I'm not sure if this is an attempt to scare transgender-identifying women and girls into avoiding anything that has to do with radical feminism, claiming that radical feminists believe that anyone who "participates in manhood" (which is something one thinks they can do if they believe in transgenderism, as then "transmen" are choosing to opt in "manhood") is "corrupt and immoral." And again, this is more of a criticism of blackpill feminist ideology, which believes in biological essentialism and therefore that men are inherently violent and terrible. Radical feminists do not believe in biological essentialism and instead believe men are socialized to behave violently and terribly. See more here: https://radfem.kindrad.org/#socialization
It ends with a strange question of "who would choose to be the oppressor?" Uhh.... Most men would and do. They greatly benefit from oppressing women, on every level from systemic global oppression to personal relationships.]
25. Masculinity is defined only by hating women, having power, and being aggressive, violent, and controlling (etc.)
26. Patriarchy doesn't just target women, but femininity as a whole, for its association with women.
27. Patriarchy doesn't just reward men, but masculinity, as it rejects femininity. People who reject femininity and embrace masculinity are rewarded by the patriarchy.
[25, 26, and 27: These statements seem kind of based in the transgenderist mentality that masculinity and femininity are good/valid concepts that need to exist (as they justify transgenderism). Radical feminists repudiate the notions of masculinity and femininity. So it's kind of a half truth in the sense that radical feminists do criticize the notions of masculinity and femininity and how they are formed under patriarchal systems.
25: Sure, close enough. See the "gender socialization" of kindrad for a more radfem explanation on why radical feminist criticize the concept of masculinity (and femininity): https://radfem.kindrad.org/#socialization
26: Relating to what I wrote above, this statement is a bit confusing because of OP's support of the concept of femininity. OP also seems to detach femininity from women, calling it a mere "association" with women, when patriarchy is the thing that created femininity in the first place and forcefully tied it to women.
“I don’t do masculinity which is the behavior of male dominance, and I don’t do femininity which is the behavior of female subordination, women’s subordination.” — Sheila Jeffreys
27: The only "people" rewarded by the patriarchy are men for perpetuating it. By virtue of it being a patriarchy, women are oppressed by it. A woman who supports the patriarchy is still oppressed by the patriarchy.]
Some of these ideas are contradictory, but they lead to the same conclusions. Some of them lead to similar conclusions, many of which take very little further nudging to push into more dogmatic ideas.
[“To be dogmatic is to follow a set of rules no matter what. The rules might be religious, philosophical, or made-up, but dogmatic people would never waver in their beliefs so don't even think of trying to change their minds. Dogmatic goes back to the Greek words dogma, which means basically “what one thinks is true” and dogmatikos, “pertaining to doctrine.” To be dogmatic is to follow a doctrine relating to morals and faith, a set of beliefs that is passed down and never questioned.”
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/dogmatic
Radical feminist values are rooted in materialism, material reality. Women are oppressed by basis of their biological sex. This has held true and continues to hold true for millennia. How is transgenderism itself not a belief system that "nudges to push into more dogmatic ideas"?]
This is exactly why we need to understand all of these paths into TERF ideology- and more.
In fact, the vast majority of the points on this list- particularly the beginnings of their logic- can be very easily swallowed while still holding that trans women are women, and trans men are men.
["Holding that trans women are women and trans men are men" are the very "dogmatic ideas" the OP criticizes TERFs for a few paragraphs ago.]
That's what TIRFs (trans-inclusive radical feminists) are, and they're still incredibly dangerous. TIRF ideology normalizes these points, making it far easier for TERFs to recruit; even if TIRFs themselves try to be aggressively anti-TERF.
[Here we can witness how essentially no feminism is good enough for TRAs, except for the kind that is neoliberal and coddles men. I hope women, especially accommodating ones like TIRFs, continue to see posts like this and peak. I don't see many "TIRFs" holding on to their stances for long, either they peak from constantly being trashed by TRAs or by simply continuing to read into radical feminist stances and realizing how transgenderism is incompatible with feminism, or they just regress to neoliberal feminism/abandoning feminism/becoming TRAs.]
Again, this isn't comprehensive, and it would take a long time and a lot of words to cover every flaw and danger in every line of reasoning here.
But remember how these things work; even if some of them begin with a grain of truth, even if some of them are true- especially if you define the words they contain differently- be wary of them.
[What in the 1984 is this conclusion? “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” This concluding statement reads to me like "be careful, things might be true, but be wary of truth." If this isn't the most succinct way of explaining what it means to be a TRA, I don't know what is.]
Kozlik's regular member account. 🍀🐐
I found this post on the Radical Feminist Alliance Tumblr and I thought it was such an interesting TRA effortpost that it seemed worth going through. https://www.tumblr.com/communities/radical-feminist-alliance/post/782093268949319680
So here is my attempt at responding to each of these claims by this TRA. If anyone wants to chime in they are more than welcome, I can make edits and we can build this rebuttal up together.
All my comments are in [purple brackets].
nothorses It is deeply, deeply beneficial to TERFs if the only characteristic of TERF ideology you will recognize as wrong, harmful, or problematic is "they hate trans women".
[Yeah, this is true, it causes TRAs to have weak arguments when all they do is tell each other to "block and stay safe" against TERFs, and thusly have to make up boogeyman "arguments" against radical feminism to tell each other.]
TERF ideology is an expansive network of extremely toxic ideas, and the more of them we accept and normalize, the easier it becomes for them to fly under the radar and recruit new TERFs. The closer they get to turning the tide against all trans people, trans women included.
["TERF ideology is an expansive network of extremely toxic ideas" — would love to see a list of these "extremely toxic ideas". (If it was the 27 items later mentioned, I'm not very impressed.) TRAs turn the tide against trans people themselves. So many people peak by just looking at transgender subreddits/online communities, or the entitlement of men who demand others view them as women who then go on to make the news by taking women's places in scholarships, institutions, shelters, and competitive sports, to name a few categories.]
Case in point: In 2014-2015, I fell headlong into radical feminism. I did not know it was called radical feminism at the time, but I also didn't know what was wrong with radical feminism in the first place. I didn't see a problem with it.
[So what was the problem..?]
I was a year deep into this shit when people I had been following, listening to, and looking up to finally said they didn't think trans women were women. It was only then that I unfollowed those people, specifically; but I continued to follow other TERFs-who-didn't-say-they-were-TERFs. I continued ingesting and spreading their ideas- for years after.
[Oh, so the "problem" was these feminist women finally called a spade a spade and said men who pretend to be women aren't really women. Like most people believe, but keep to themselves.]
If TERFs "only target trans women" and "only want trans women gone", if that's the one and only problem with their ideology and if that's the only way we'll define them, we will inevitably miss a vast majority of the quiet beliefs that support their much louder hatred of trans women.
[Acknowledging that a man who calls himself a woman is not a woman is not "hatred." Radical feminists want "transwomen" "gone" from women's spaces. They are free to use men's spaces, as they always have had the right to, as they are of the male sex.]
As another example: the trans community stood relatively united when TERFs and conservatives targeted our right to use the correct restroom, citing the "dangers" of trans women sharing space with cis women. But when they began targeting Lost Little Girls and Confused Lesbians and trotting detransitioners out to raise a panic about trans men, virtually the only people speaking up about it were other transmascs. Now we see a rash of anti-trans healthcare bills being passed in the US, and they're hurting every single one of us.
[I like how the OP completely diminishes the staggering rate of ROGD in young girls as "Lost Little Girls" (I think this is also to make any young transgender identifying girls reading this post think "well I'm not a little girl!" and go further into the trans community), and minimizing the experiences of detransitioners ("trotting detransitioners") who now possibly have permanent unnecessary changes to their body and physical health side-effects. As if it's preposterous for people to possibly be concerned about the long-term health effects of cosmetic hormonal and surgical procedures that are based on a bunch of sexist stereotypes, no no, it must all be part of some evil "transphobic agenda."]
When you refuse to call a TERF a TERF just because they didn't specifically say they hate trans women, when you refuse to think critically about a TERF belief just because it's not directly related to trans women, you are actively helping TERFs spread their influence and build credibility.
[By all means, please keep screaming "TERF" at feminist women, it just helps radical feminism get more recognition. I highly encourage people to think critically about any a "TERF belief" — please, think critically about all beliefs! Ask critical questions to those part of a political movement! Do it to everyone, radical feminists and transgender ideologists alike! Asking questions is how we learn and grow. Also check out the kindrad FAQ: https://kindrad.org/questions]
rickiflannel-deactivated2021081 what is some TERF ideology we should be on the look out for?
nothorses This isn't comprehensive, but I'll do my best.
TERFs are, first and foremost, radical feminists. Radical feminism is essentially second-wave feminism without the intersectionality brought in by third-wave feminism. It believes that patriarchy is at fault for the oppression of women, but sees this in a very strict, binary way: women are the oppressed, and men are the oppressors.
[Yes, TERFs are supposed to be radical feminists, it's in the name. (I say "supposed to be" because TRAs labeling every MAGA wingnut or tradwife on X a "TERF" kind of causes it lose its meaning). Intersectionality started in the second wave, with prominent second-wave intersectional feminists like Audre Lorde..? Yes, radical feminists believe patriarchy is at fault for the oppression of women. Yes, women are the oppressed class, and men are the oppressor class. I assume this user's view of "intersectional feminism" is "Tumblrized intersectionality," discussed in this Jane Clare Jones article: https://janeclarejones.com/2018/08/27/trans-activism-and-intersectional-feminism/]
TERFs use this to justify their specific brand of transphobia. This idea, among others, is essential in supporting that transphobia.
[This makes it seem like "TERFs" main focus is to spread "transphobia," when the concept of patriarchy being the root of women's oppression has existed longer than the modern concept of "transphobia." Radical feminists care about women's liberation and ending sex-based oppression. Transgender beliefs happen to go against radical feminist values, due to transgenderism's support of gender and gender conformity.]
I'll try to outline some of those ideas, and some of the logical thruoughlines they use:
1. Women are uniquely oppressed, and always in danger. Womanhood- or the experience of being a woman- is defined by oppression, misogyny, and Being In Danger.
[1: Yeah, women are uniquely oppressed on the virtue of their sex. The part about them being "always in danger" is kind of some sort of weird scare tactic. But yes women as a class are more likely to be in danger due to the misogyny of men as a class. There are overwhelming numerous statistical studies done across the planet that showed that men are consistently dangerous to women. The part about "womanhood" or "the experience of being a woman" being defined in such a narrow narrow seems typical of a TRA, because transgenderism is the belief that womanhood can be defined in any such quantifiable way so that men can somehow "claim womanhood." I think it also tries to set it up such that radical feminists are just constantly in misery. I mean yeah, being a woman in a misogynistic patriarchal society is pretty miserable, but it's not what completely "defines us" as female human beings... We are more than the misery men inflict on us.]
2. Women are particularly in danger in the presence of, and in relationships with, men. Spaces that exclude men are essential to preserving the safety of women.
[2: Yeah, kind of. Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men is an extremely valuable knowledge resource for all women.]
3. Socialization: men are raised to support patriarchy, while women are raised to be subjugated by it. Men have no motive to unlearn these lessons, so all men are inherently more corrupted by these lessons than women.
[3: Sure.]
4. Relationships with men are therefore inherently (more likely to be) abusive, and relationships with women are inherently safe(er).
[4: Yep on the men's part, only somewhat true on the women's part if we are comparing their relationship statistically to a relationship with a man. Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men is an extremely valuable knowledge resource for all women. Women are capable of abusing other women, and Lundy Bancroft's book actually does even point out the book can be applicable for women in same-sex relationships.]
5. Sex, in particular, is more often exploitative than not. Only some kinds of sex are not exploitative. Many kinds of sex that we think are consensual, or that people say are consensual, are either rape or proto-rape.
[5: Yep.]
6. Exchanging money for sex is inherently rape/exploitation/non-consensual in some way.
[6: Yep. If the only reason someone is having sex with you is because you paid them money, then you are a rapist. Prostitution exploits women. Prostitution is paid rape.]
7. As women who deny men access to them, lesbians are The Most Oppressed and also The Most Endangered. They must be protected at all costs.
[7: A kind of patronizing claim to make radical feminist seem like white knights. Also calling lesbians "endangered" is rather gross and dehumanizing. "The most oppressed": there are no hierarchies of oppression. Lesbian's rights to not be forced to have sex with men should be protected at all costs. Because rape is wrong.]
8. Because so many women have been raped by men with penises, both men and penises are inherently traumatic to A Lot Of Women.
[8: Yeah, so? Leave those women be.]
9. Many lesbians will naturally have an aversion to relationships with trans women because of this. Trans women who argue against this "genital preference" are potential rapists trying to infiltrate lesbian spaces to hurt and take advantage of women.
[9: Yep. "Transwomen" are men, they cannot be lesbians. "Transwomen" who try to make lesbian women have sex with them are rapists.]
10. Men will always try to invade "women's spaces" to take advantage of women, endanger them, and strip away their resources both for personal gain/pleasure, and in service of upholding the patriarchy.
[10: Yep.]
11. If we allow men to say they are women, they will invade those spaces and hurt "real" women. Men who say they are women are dangerous, and must be excluded and punished.
[11: Yeah, this is plausible, and has already been documented as happening in various news sources. Men who say they are women can be dangerous. I'm not sure what it meant by they "must be excluded", as in, from women's bathrooms, sports, scholarships, prisons, changing rooms, etc? Yes, they need to go utilize the men's versions of those things. As for punished, I'm not sure what it means either, but probably a boogeyman to force team radical feminists with Republicans/conservatives, who generally support the harsh punishments like the death penalty. Radical feminists, and women in general, ask that men please respect women's sex-based rights and spaces.]
12. Men may try to obfuscate labels and terminology to "define women out of existence" or otherwise cause confusion, which they can manipulate to further their infiltration.
[12: Yep. It would be great if men could stop doing that. Women are adult female humans. We deserve sex-based rights and protected spaces.]
13. Women are all miserable with their bodies, cursed with the pressure to reproduce and have sex with men.
[13: Starts with a lie and ends with a truth, so a half-truth. Radical feminists do not believe all women are miserable with their bodies. That's strange. And it's also strange because don't transgender people try to convince people that they're miserable with their innate bodies and want to change them through hormones and cosmetic surgeries..? Patriarchy and sexism are what might make women miserable with their bodies. I think a lot of radical feminists support body neutrality movements.]
14. Women are all miserable with their genders, forced as they are to ensure the overwhelming and constant suffering that is patriarchy.
[14: Somewhat true, but operates off the transgenderist belief that "genders" are a valid thing that people "choose" and not a means of oppression, tools of the patriarchy, themselves.]
15. Women will attempt to escape this misery and pressure by "becoming men". This is cowardly, but understandable; a tragic but inevitable result of patriarchy. These women must be saved.
[15: I assume this is in reference to transgender-identifying women and girls ("transmen"). I think this is somewhat true, but intentionally written in a way that is patronizing. Writing it as "these women must be saved" implies some sort of "savior complex," and implies that radical feminists do not believe women deserve autonomy, that they are damsels in distress. That is like white knight incel shit. Radical feminists do try to encourage young women and girls to avoid transgenderism as an attempt to escape misogyny, they do that by making support groups and websites and ways to connect with other women who may have felt that transitioning was a way for them to escape a sexist society. I think some of this is trying to equate Christian conservative type folks who think women need to be "protected" in a patronizing sense rather than in a radical feminist sense that women need to stick together and help each other through living in a patriarchy.]
16. Some women who try to escape patriarchy are doing it out of self-interest; they are betraying women by becoming men, and contributing to their oppression. These women must be punished.
[16: Strange and confusing nonsense. Why would radical feminists, whose political mission is to liberate women from their oppression and from patriarchy, think that women who try to escape patriarchy are betraying women? Maybe this is the OP's way of trying to scare transgender identifying women and girls ("transmen") and to avoiding radical feminism? No, radical feminists do not believe that transgender identifying women and girls "must be punished." I think it is more the transgenderist movement that wishes to "punish" detransitioners and desisters for "making their movement look bad"... And I'm honestly very confused why it's even wrong for women to want to escape the patriarchy out of self-interest, why would I be upset at women wanting to escape their oppression? Why would I be upset at anyone wanting to escape any oppression that they face? So strange.]
17. Bio-essentialism: women are oppressed specifically because of their bodies and ability to reproduce. This is an inherent and defining part of womanhood. Nobody can claim womanhood without this experience, everyone who has had this experience is a woman.
[17: This whole claim is just wrong on different levels. First of all the definition of biological essentialism is wrong, which is something TRAs constantly do. Here is a good article that explains the actual definition of biological essentialism: https://radicailin.com/what-the-hell-does-biological-essentialist-mean/
The "no one can claim womanhood without this experience" part is incorrect, because it is based on the transgenderist notion that people can just "claim womanhood." No one can "claim womanhood." If you are female and age enough to become an adult, you are a woman. You don't have to claim anything. Tada.]
18. Women's bodies are all beautiful and perfect because they are women's bodies. If the womanliness of them is tampered with, they become less valuable. Men's bodies are gross and undesirable symbols of patriarchy.
[18: lol. I think this is pulled off of some mix of seeing a lot of "divine feminine" (spiritual woman-centered stuff, not explicitly radical feminism) posts, female body positivity posts, as well as blackpill feminist posts (infamous for roasting men). This whole claim of "if the womanliness is tampered it becomes less valuable" just sounds like gross conservative Christian talk. So, that's probably from reading posts from anti-trans conservatives and labeling them as TERFs/radfems.]
19. Testosterone makes people violent, aggressive, irrational, and angry. Estrogen makes people calm, kind, and happy.
[19: This one is odd, because it starts to veer into biological essentialism, which radical feminists don't endorse, but also because there are countless instances of transgender identifying people themselves making these claims..? So I'm not sure why radical feminists are the ones being accused of having this idea, when a brief cursory glance at any of the transgender subreddits where they share their experiences of what it was like to take hormones, you can find transgender identifying people claiming such things about taking hormones. That's kind of on the trans community...]
20. Men can never understand women's bodies as well as other women do.
[20: Yeah lol.]
21. People can be attracted to other people on the basis of "sex" alone. This is inherent, immutable, and unquestionable.
[21: I'm not really sure what this means. Does this person think radical feminists think any straight woman is attracted to any man just because they have a penis..? Or that any lesbian is attracted to any woman just because they have a vagina..? There's clearly more at play with people's attraction to each other than just genitals. But if the OP is trying to hand wave the transgender movements attempts to correctively rape lesbians by making them think "women can have penises" and that their sexuality is a mere "genital preference", yeah, radical feminist strongly stand by the stands that lesbians are women (female humans) who are sexually attracted to other women (female humans).]
22. Men are sexual animals who inherently and unavoidably find lots of bad things sexually arousing. Because "youth" is attractive, many men find young girls and children attractive, and will try to take advantage of them. Misogynistic control/power over women, hurting women, and even rape are also inherently sexually appealing to men.
[22: The first sentence is kinda veering towards biological essentialism (and obvious dehumanization), and probably based on women venting about men being sadistic and pornsick. Second sentence, yes. Third sentence, yes. Totally. One only needs to look at the overwhelming amount of disgusting violent misogynistic porn, and "barely legal"/"teen porn" easily available nowadays to see this. Check out https://www.tumblr.com/boysandmenconsumethis for some statistical data.]
23. "Gender" is meaningless; it's founded in misogynistic stereotypes about men and women, and when you remove the stereotypes, there's nothing left at all. Only binary "sex" is real, because that's what patriarchy (and biology) is based on.
[23: Starts off somewhat true (some radical feminists would probably argue with the claim that gender is "meaningless" as there is certainly a lot of meaning held to it in order to enforce patriarchy and sexism), then ends strangely starting with "there's nothing left at all." I mean, it's kind of a weird way to put it I think, because once you remove the gender stereotypes from people, we are just left with people. Human beings, who happen to be male and female. I wouldn't call that "nothing left at all." I assume this is part of some strange belief that if gender was abolished, we'd all be like gray blobby people with no personal aesthetic or something..? There is also a strange force-teaming of patriarchy and biology at the end, as if because patriarchy is based on the sex based oppression of women, therefore biology is bad too..? But, yes, patriarchy is built on the subjugation and oppression of female people, and female is one of the two sexes in humans.]
24. Manhood is itself a toxic, oppressive, inherently corrupting concept. Anyone who participates in manhood is corrupt and immoral; who would choose to be the oppressor?
[24: This seems to be a spot where TRAs utilize biological essentialism, they are equivocating "manhood" and "masculinity." Assuming, that is, "manhood" here means "being male." I'm not sure if this is an attempt to scare transgender-identifying women and girls into avoiding anything that has to do with radical feminism, claiming that radical feminists believe that anyone who "participates in manhood" (which is something one thinks they can do if they believe in transgenderism, as then "transmen" are choosing to opt in "manhood") is "corrupt and immoral." And again, this is more of a criticism of blackpill feminist ideology, which believes in biological essentialism and therefore that men are inherently violent and terrible. Radical feminists do not believe in biological essentialism and instead believe men are socialized to behave violently and terribly. See more here: https://radfem.kindrad.org/#socialization
It ends with a strange question of "who would choose to be the oppressor?" Uhh.... Most men would and do. They greatly benefit from oppressing women, on every level from systemic global oppression to personal relationships.]
25. Masculinity is defined only by hating women, having power, and being aggressive, violent, and controlling (etc.)
26. Patriarchy doesn't just target women, but femininity as a whole, for its association with women.
27. Patriarchy doesn't just reward men, but masculinity, as it rejects femininity. People who reject femininity and embrace masculinity are rewarded by the patriarchy.
[25, 26, and 27: These statements seem kind of based in the transgenderist mentality that masculinity and femininity are good/valid concepts that need to exist (as they justify transgenderism). Radical feminists repudiate the notions of masculinity and femininity. So it's kind of a half truth in the sense that radical feminists do criticize the notions of masculinity and femininity and how they are formed under patriarchal systems.
25: Sure, close enough. See the "gender socialization" of kindrad for a more radfem explanation on why radical feminist criticize the concept of masculinity (and femininity): https://radfem.kindrad.org/#socialization
26: Relating to what I wrote above, this statement is a bit confusing because of OP's support of the concept of femininity. OP also seems to detach femininity from women, calling it a mere "association" with women, when patriarchy is the thing that created femininity in the first place and forcefully tied it to women.
“I don’t do masculinity which is the behavior of male dominance, and I don’t do femininity which is the behavior of female subordination, women’s subordination.” — Sheila Jeffreys
27: The only "people" rewarded by the patriarchy are men for perpetuating it. By virtue of it being a patriarchy, women are oppressed by it. A woman who supports the patriarchy is still oppressed by the patriarchy.]
Some of these ideas are contradictory, but they lead to the same conclusions. Some of them lead to similar conclusions, many of which take very little further nudging to push into more dogmatic ideas.
[“To be dogmatic is to follow a set of rules no matter what. The rules might be religious, philosophical, or made-up, but dogmatic people would never waver in their beliefs so don't even think of trying to change their minds. Dogmatic goes back to the Greek words dogma, which means basically “what one thinks is true” and dogmatikos, “pertaining to doctrine.” To be dogmatic is to follow a doctrine relating to morals and faith, a set of beliefs that is passed down and never questioned.”
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/dogmatic
Radical feminist values are rooted in materialism, material reality. Women are oppressed by basis of their biological sex. This has held true and continues to hold true for millennia. How is transgenderism itself not a belief system that "nudges to push into more dogmatic ideas"?]
This is exactly why we need to understand all of these paths into TERF ideology- and more.
In fact, the vast majority of the points on this list- particularly the beginnings of their logic- can be very easily swallowed while still holding that trans women are women, and trans men are men.
["Holding that trans women are women and trans men are men" are the very "dogmatic ideas" the OP criticizes TERFs for a few paragraphs ago.]
That's what TIRFs (trans-inclusive radical feminists) are, and they're still incredibly dangerous. TIRF ideology normalizes these points, making it far easier for TERFs to recruit; even if TIRFs themselves try to be aggressively anti-TERF.
[Here we can witness how essentially no feminism is good enough for TRAs, except for the kind that is neoliberal and coddles men. I hope women, especially accommodating ones like TIRFs, continue to see posts like this and peak. I don't see many "TIRFs" holding on to their stances for long, either they peak from constantly being trashed by TRAs or by simply continuing to read into radical feminist stances and realizing how transgenderism is incompatible with feminism, or they just regress to neoliberal feminism/abandoning feminism/becoming TRAs.]
Again, this isn't comprehensive, and it would take a long time and a lot of words to cover every flaw and danger in every line of reasoning here.
But remember how these things work; even if some of them begin with a grain of truth, even if some of them are true- especially if you define the words they contain differently- be wary of them.
[What in the 1984 is this conclusion? “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” This concluding statement reads to me like "be careful, things might be true, but be wary of truth." If this isn't the most succinct way of explaining what it means to be a TRA, I don't know what is.]
Kozlik's regular member account. 🍀🐐
