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libfem vs radfem vs tradfem

libfem vs radfem vs tradfem

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Possum
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Jan 26 2025, 9:34 PM
#1
I've decided to try and cope with my Trump anxiety by expanding on my big long post and trying to make it more coherent. It feels more productive than endless doomscrolling. My plan is to talk about the three main "camps" of feminist discourse going around today and compare their general perspectives.

My main goal is to help make a coherent definition of "tradfems" and how their beliefs differ from "radfems" because I think it's important for radical, rad-leaning, and gender critical feminists (who actually are those things) to loudly distance ourselves from alt-righters who identify as TERFs despite not being Radical Feminists or gender critical despite not being critical of traditional gender roles. I think it's good for us to be vigilant about recognizing and calling out alt-right rhetoric disguised as radical feminism.

I'm probably not going to go super deep into anything or cite a bunch of theory in every post because honestly I just don't want to put that much effort into internet stuff. I'm also probably not going to post screencaps/examples of the rhetoric I'm talking about because:

  1. It's not my intention to start witchhunts against individuals and
  2. Again, this is just me trying to find a healthier outlet for my Trump anxiety so I don't want to treat it as a job or homework. I'm just here to to smoke a joint and word vomit my observations on the discourse. Writing this stuff out feels very cathartic.
I'm gonna start with a quick definition post and then start making posts about specific topics and the general libfem/radfem/tradfem perspectives related to those topics. I speak "in character" for each group because I find it easiest to write out the radfem perspective in first person and then build the libfem/tradfem off of that. So obviously the only perspective I actually endorse/agree with here is the radfem one.

(Posting in this subforum to keep all my posts with this theme organized in one thread, but let me know if it'd be more appropriate in another subforum.)




DEFINITIONS

LIBFEM

Libfem, libfeminist, libfeminism = Umbrella term for a style of feminism rooting from neoliberalism, queer theory, 3rd wave feminism, intersectional feminism, and postmodernism.

Has a tendency to intentionally misinterpret and weaponize specific concepts (like privilege or intersectionality) to defang feminism and make it more appealing to men and capitalism. For example, the concept of solidarity is often weaponized to bully women into ignoring misogyny from other groups ("lesbians must center trans women and do as they're told to be good intersectional feminists!".). This was the dominate form of feminism online (and offline) through the 10s.

I'm intentionally using "libfeminism" and "libfem" instead of "(neo)liberal, queer, or postmodern feminism/feminist" because I'm talking about this general group of online discourse, not specific ideology or theory.


RADFEM

Radfem, radfeminist, radfeminism = Umbrella term for a style of feminism rooting from radical feminism, Marxist feminism, gender-critical feminism, 2nd wave feminism and just general common sense feminism.

For many younger radfems, their first exposure to feminism was libfeminism. Therefore radfeminism has some overlap with some of the saner parts of 3rd wave feminism and rejects the less-than-ideal parts of 2nd wave feminism. For example, political lesbianism was a big part of the 2nd wave but is typically rejected as lesbophobic by radfeminism. Radfeminism is not just a copy+paste of 2nd wave, it is it's own modern thing significantly influenced by 2nd wave.

I'm intentionally using "radfeminism" and "radfem" instead of "radical or gender-critical feminism/feminist" because I'm talking about this general type of online discourse, not specific ideology or theory.


TRADFEM

Tradfem, tradfeminist, tradfeminism = umbrella term for a reactionary style of "feminism" developing in opposition to libfeminism. Tradfems often appropriate talking points from radfeminism to appear legitimate and often orbit/astroturf radfeminist circles.

They do not typically self-describe as tradfems. They typically self-describe as radfems, gender-critical, and TERFs. They also sometimes seem to self-describe as centrist, moderate, or "politically homeless". They never self-describe as tradfem or rightwing. I'm going to self-describe as tradfem when I'm speaking from their point of view here because I don't want this to be confusing or screencapped and taken out of context, but it's very very important to remember that these people do not typically self-describe as tradfems. They usually self-describe as radfems, TERFs, or gender-critical.

I'm intentionally using "tradfeminism" and "tradfem" instead of "conservative, rightwing, or Christian feminism/feminist" because I'm talking about these positions in online discourse, not specific ideology or theory.
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Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
Jan 26 2025, 9:34 PM #1

I've decided to try and cope with my Trump anxiety by expanding on my big long post and trying to make it more coherent. It feels more productive than endless doomscrolling. My plan is to talk about the three main "camps" of feminist discourse going around today and compare their general perspectives.

My main goal is to help make a coherent definition of "tradfems" and how their beliefs differ from "radfems" because I think it's important for radical, rad-leaning, and gender critical feminists (who actually are those things) to loudly distance ourselves from alt-righters who identify as TERFs despite not being Radical Feminists or gender critical despite not being critical of traditional gender roles. I think it's good for us to be vigilant about recognizing and calling out alt-right rhetoric disguised as radical feminism.

I'm probably not going to go super deep into anything or cite a bunch of theory in every post because honestly I just don't want to put that much effort into internet stuff. I'm also probably not going to post screencaps/examples of the rhetoric I'm talking about because:

  1. It's not my intention to start witchhunts against individuals and
  2. Again, this is just me trying to find a healthier outlet for my Trump anxiety so I don't want to treat it as a job or homework. I'm just here to to smoke a joint and word vomit my observations on the discourse. Writing this stuff out feels very cathartic.
I'm gonna start with a quick definition post and then start making posts about specific topics and the general libfem/radfem/tradfem perspectives related to those topics. I speak "in character" for each group because I find it easiest to write out the radfem perspective in first person and then build the libfem/tradfem off of that. So obviously the only perspective I actually endorse/agree with here is the radfem one.

(Posting in this subforum to keep all my posts with this theme organized in one thread, but let me know if it'd be more appropriate in another subforum.)




DEFINITIONS

LIBFEM

Libfem, libfeminist, libfeminism = Umbrella term for a style of feminism rooting from neoliberalism, queer theory, 3rd wave feminism, intersectional feminism, and postmodernism.

Has a tendency to intentionally misinterpret and weaponize specific concepts (like privilege or intersectionality) to defang feminism and make it more appealing to men and capitalism. For example, the concept of solidarity is often weaponized to bully women into ignoring misogyny from other groups ("lesbians must center trans women and do as they're told to be good intersectional feminists!".). This was the dominate form of feminism online (and offline) through the 10s.

I'm intentionally using "libfeminism" and "libfem" instead of "(neo)liberal, queer, or postmodern feminism/feminist" because I'm talking about this general group of online discourse, not specific ideology or theory.


RADFEM

Radfem, radfeminist, radfeminism = Umbrella term for a style of feminism rooting from radical feminism, Marxist feminism, gender-critical feminism, 2nd wave feminism and just general common sense feminism.

For many younger radfems, their first exposure to feminism was libfeminism. Therefore radfeminism has some overlap with some of the saner parts of 3rd wave feminism and rejects the less-than-ideal parts of 2nd wave feminism. For example, political lesbianism was a big part of the 2nd wave but is typically rejected as lesbophobic by radfeminism. Radfeminism is not just a copy+paste of 2nd wave, it is it's own modern thing significantly influenced by 2nd wave.

I'm intentionally using "radfeminism" and "radfem" instead of "radical or gender-critical feminism/feminist" because I'm talking about this general type of online discourse, not specific ideology or theory.


TRADFEM

Tradfem, tradfeminist, tradfeminism = umbrella term for a reactionary style of "feminism" developing in opposition to libfeminism. Tradfems often appropriate talking points from radfeminism to appear legitimate and often orbit/astroturf radfeminist circles.

They do not typically self-describe as tradfems. They typically self-describe as radfems, gender-critical, and TERFs. They also sometimes seem to self-describe as centrist, moderate, or "politically homeless". They never self-describe as tradfem or rightwing. I'm going to self-describe as tradfem when I'm speaking from their point of view here because I don't want this to be confusing or screencapped and taken out of context, but it's very very important to remember that these people do not typically self-describe as tradfems. They usually self-describe as radfems, TERFs, or gender-critical.

I'm intentionally using "tradfeminism" and "tradfem" instead of "conservative, rightwing, or Christian feminism/feminist" because I'm talking about these positions in online discourse, not specific ideology or theory.

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Possum
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Jan 26 2025, 9:52 PM
#2
PLACE ON THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM


LIBFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We are a liberal ideology. We often self-describe as Marxist, leftist, socialist, or revolutionary in some way. We are the good guys and anyone who disagrees with us are the bad guys. We are on the right side of history and anyone who disagrees with us is on the wrong side of history. It is important to excommunicate anyone who does not toe the party line, because wrongthink is dangerous.
  • Radfeminism is an alt-right ideology that focuses on removing civil rights from trans people. Radfeminism is not leftist. Anything a radfem says is automatically bad because they are radfems, and radfem = bad.
  • Tradfeminism and radfeminism are the same thing.
  • We define "gender critical" as criticism of trans people and gender nonconformity in general. We believe that gender critical ideology is the idea that gender-nonconformity is bad. We believe that radfems want everyone to conform to traditional gender roles, and hate trans people because they do not conform to traditional gender roles.
  • We do not typically know the definitions of Marxism and socialism. We typically use them as positive buzzwords for anything we approve of. For example: "My weekly Shein haul of girl clothes is socialist praxis because it allows me to affirm my gender-identity on a working-class salary" and "sex work is a form of work, therefore encouraging sex work is Marxist.".
  • Trump is bad. Additionally, Trumpism/MAGA is bigger than just Trump himself and will continue to be bad regardless of the figurehead. This presidency will be destructive to America's institutions, infrastructure, culture, international relations, and democracy as a whole. His election has already moved the Overton window dangerously close to fascism, Elon Musk did a Nazi salute at the inauguration with minimal pushback. MAGA does not end with Trump.

RADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We are a leftist ideology. Many of us have been excommunicated from mainstream leftism for disagreeing on their approach to feminism, but we still consider ourselves leftists or left-leaning. Many of us have been excommunicated from libfeminism for disagreeing on their approach to feminism, but we have some overlap with their beliefs. Some of us may lean more liberal than leftist but none of us are rightwing. We typically self-describe as radfems, gender-critical, or rad-leaning.
  • Libfeminism is a neoliberal ideology with elements of postmodernism and queer theory, and a HEAVY focus on identity politics. We are very critical of libfeminism, but we do not believe that anything a libfem says is automatically bad just because they are libfems.
  • Tradfeminism is a type of alt-right, conservative, Christian, and/or rightwing "feminism" that appropriates radfeminist talking points to appeal to women. They are not the same as us.
  • We define "gender critical" as criticism of gender roles and stereotypes as a whole. We are critical of trans ideology because it reinforces gender roles/stereotypes instead of dismantling them. We are critical of tradfeminism because it reinforces traditional gender roles/stereotypes instead of dismantling them.
  • We can typically give you a basic definition of Marxism and socialism. We typically use these words accurately instead of as buzzwords.
  • Trump is bad. Additionally, Trumpism/MAGA is bigger than just Trump himself and will continue to be bad regardless of the figurehead. It's not actually possible to elect Trump for his "silver lining" of being anti-trans and then go back to normal as soon as Trump is no longer president. This presidency will be destructive to America's institutions, infrastructure, culture, international relations, and democracy as a whole. His election has already moved the Overton window dangerously close to fascism, Elon Musk did a Nazi salute at the inauguration with minimal pushback. MAGA does not end with Trump.

TRADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We are true, old-school feminists and liberals who have no choice but to support the alt-right because the left has abandoned us. We self-describe as radical feminists, gender-critical, and proud TERFs. We have been excommunicated from libfeminism for disagreeing with their approach to feminism, so now we want to distance ourselves completely from their beliefs and have 0 overlap with them.
  • Libfeminism is a Marxist, leftist, postmodern, and socialist ideology. If a libfem supports anything, we must reject it on principle because libfem = bad.
  • We are not tradfems, we are the real radfems. The "real" radfems as described in the radfem section of this document are pandering to libfeminism and/or sabotaging feminist solidarity by drawing a line in the sand between us.
  • We define "gender critical" as criticism of trans people often gender nonconformity in general. We are exclusively critical of the idea that male people can identify as women and female people can identify as men. We are not critical of traditional gender roles, and in fact often believe that the solution to trans ideology is for everyone to be forced back into traditional gender roles.
  • We do not typically know the definitions of Marxism and socialism. We typically use them as negative buzzwords for anything we disapprove of. For example: "Joe Biden is a radical socialist because he approves of trans ideology." or "Marxist pharmaceutical CEOs encourage childhood transition because they want to profit off of HRT sales.".
  • Trump is good and/or a necessary evil. It is possible to elect Trump for his silver lining of being anti-trans and then go back to normal as soon as Trump is no longer president. And even if we don't go back to normal and he manages to destroy America's institutions, infrastructure culture, international relations, and democracy as a whole, this is good/a necessary evil because Democrats are rotten to the core and cannot be redeemed.


footnotes:
N/A

history:
posted 1/26/2025
edited 1/27/2025 - additions and minor grammar corrections.

with help from:
thanks @Elsacat! view her post here.
Edited Jan 27 2025, 5:56 PM by Possum.
Reply
Reply
Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
Jan 26 2025, 9:52 PM #2

PLACE ON THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM


LIBFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We are a liberal ideology. We often self-describe as Marxist, leftist, socialist, or revolutionary in some way. We are the good guys and anyone who disagrees with us are the bad guys. We are on the right side of history and anyone who disagrees with us is on the wrong side of history. It is important to excommunicate anyone who does not toe the party line, because wrongthink is dangerous.
  • Radfeminism is an alt-right ideology that focuses on removing civil rights from trans people. Radfeminism is not leftist. Anything a radfem says is automatically bad because they are radfems, and radfem = bad.
  • Tradfeminism and radfeminism are the same thing.
  • We define "gender critical" as criticism of trans people and gender nonconformity in general. We believe that gender critical ideology is the idea that gender-nonconformity is bad. We believe that radfems want everyone to conform to traditional gender roles, and hate trans people because they do not conform to traditional gender roles.
  • We do not typically know the definitions of Marxism and socialism. We typically use them as positive buzzwords for anything we approve of. For example: "My weekly Shein haul of girl clothes is socialist praxis because it allows me to affirm my gender-identity on a working-class salary" and "sex work is a form of work, therefore encouraging sex work is Marxist.".
  • Trump is bad. Additionally, Trumpism/MAGA is bigger than just Trump himself and will continue to be bad regardless of the figurehead. This presidency will be destructive to America's institutions, infrastructure, culture, international relations, and democracy as a whole. His election has already moved the Overton window dangerously close to fascism, Elon Musk did a Nazi salute at the inauguration with minimal pushback. MAGA does not end with Trump.

RADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We are a leftist ideology. Many of us have been excommunicated from mainstream leftism for disagreeing on their approach to feminism, but we still consider ourselves leftists or left-leaning. Many of us have been excommunicated from libfeminism for disagreeing on their approach to feminism, but we have some overlap with their beliefs. Some of us may lean more liberal than leftist but none of us are rightwing. We typically self-describe as radfems, gender-critical, or rad-leaning.
  • Libfeminism is a neoliberal ideology with elements of postmodernism and queer theory, and a HEAVY focus on identity politics. We are very critical of libfeminism, but we do not believe that anything a libfem says is automatically bad just because they are libfems.
  • Tradfeminism is a type of alt-right, conservative, Christian, and/or rightwing "feminism" that appropriates radfeminist talking points to appeal to women. They are not the same as us.
  • We define "gender critical" as criticism of gender roles and stereotypes as a whole. We are critical of trans ideology because it reinforces gender roles/stereotypes instead of dismantling them. We are critical of tradfeminism because it reinforces traditional gender roles/stereotypes instead of dismantling them.
  • We can typically give you a basic definition of Marxism and socialism. We typically use these words accurately instead of as buzzwords.
  • Trump is bad. Additionally, Trumpism/MAGA is bigger than just Trump himself and will continue to be bad regardless of the figurehead. It's not actually possible to elect Trump for his "silver lining" of being anti-trans and then go back to normal as soon as Trump is no longer president. This presidency will be destructive to America's institutions, infrastructure, culture, international relations, and democracy as a whole. His election has already moved the Overton window dangerously close to fascism, Elon Musk did a Nazi salute at the inauguration with minimal pushback. MAGA does not end with Trump.

TRADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We are true, old-school feminists and liberals who have no choice but to support the alt-right because the left has abandoned us. We self-describe as radical feminists, gender-critical, and proud TERFs. We have been excommunicated from libfeminism for disagreeing with their approach to feminism, so now we want to distance ourselves completely from their beliefs and have 0 overlap with them.
  • Libfeminism is a Marxist, leftist, postmodern, and socialist ideology. If a libfem supports anything, we must reject it on principle because libfem = bad.
  • We are not tradfems, we are the real radfems. The "real" radfems as described in the radfem section of this document are pandering to libfeminism and/or sabotaging feminist solidarity by drawing a line in the sand between us.
  • We define "gender critical" as criticism of trans people often gender nonconformity in general. We are exclusively critical of the idea that male people can identify as women and female people can identify as men. We are not critical of traditional gender roles, and in fact often believe that the solution to trans ideology is for everyone to be forced back into traditional gender roles.
  • We do not typically know the definitions of Marxism and socialism. We typically use them as negative buzzwords for anything we disapprove of. For example: "Joe Biden is a radical socialist because he approves of trans ideology." or "Marxist pharmaceutical CEOs encourage childhood transition because they want to profit off of HRT sales.".
  • Trump is good and/or a necessary evil. It is possible to elect Trump for his silver lining of being anti-trans and then go back to normal as soon as Trump is no longer president. And even if we don't go back to normal and he manages to destroy America's institutions, infrastructure culture, international relations, and democracy as a whole, this is good/a necessary evil because Democrats are rotten to the core and cannot be redeemed.


footnotes:
N/A

history:
posted 1/26/2025
edited 1/27/2025 - additions and minor grammar corrections.

with help from:
thanks @Elsacat! view her post here.

Reply
Reply
Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
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86
Jan 26 2025, 10:08 PM
#3
THE PHRASE "TERF" (TRANS-EXCLUSIVE RADICAL FEMINIST)


LIBFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We hate TERFs because TERF stands for Trans-Exclusive-Something-Something so therefore they hate trans people and want them to die. We see TERF as a label that can apply to basically anyone that goes against trans ideology or disagrees with us in general. Elon Musk, Donald Trump, and Matt Walsh are TERFs.
  • TERFs exclusively focus on hating trans people and wanting them to die. TERFs don't care about any social issues at all beyond blind hatred of trans people for no reason.
  • TERFs pretend to care about AFABs but this is false. They hate trans men, transmascs, and AFAB nonbinaries because TERFs hate it when female people are masculine. They want to make it illegal for AFAB people to be masculine.
  • TERFs blindly hate trans people because they think trans people are ugly and weird. They have no actual criticisms of trans ideology, they simply hate gender nonconformity. This extends to GNC or queer people who are not even trans. TERFs think butch lesbians or women with hirsutism should be banned from female spaces because they look masculine.

RADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • "TERF" stands for Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminist. Many of us have adopted the label TERF as a self-descriptor because we are constantly being called TERFs. However, technically "TERF" is not an accurate description of our beliefs as we are male-exclusive, not trans-exclusive. We believe that the goal of radfeminism is to liberate female people from male oppression, and so all male people (including ones who identify as trans) are excluded.
  • TERF centers trans ideology in our activism, but in reality criticism of trans ideology is just one piece of our belief system. Again, our goal is to liberate female people from male oppression so our criticism of trans ideology is just one part of that goal.
  • Female trans people are included under our definition of female. We do not do pronoun circles or entertain the idea that gender identity is real, but we want all female people to be liberated from male oppression. This includes female trans people even though we strongly disagree with them. We do not want to force female trans people to be conventionally feminine and we do not wish violence on them, we just disagree with trans ideology.
  • Many of us are detrans, desisted, or have trans loved ones and came into radfeminism because we personally experienced or witnessed harm from trans ideology. Many of us peaked by witnessing the way female trans people were being abused by male trans people, or the unique ways trans ideology preys on vulnerable female people. Our criticisms are typically coming from a place of genuine concern and not blind hatred or disgust.

TRADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We identify as TERFs because TERF stands for Trans-Exclusive-Something-Something and we are trans exclusive. We see TERF as a label that can apply to basically anyone that goes against trans ideology. Elon Musk, Donald Trump, and Matt Walsh are TERFs.
  • TERF centers trans ideology in our activism, which is accurate because we are single-issue about trans ideology. We are willing to burn everything else to the ground, up to and including women's suffrage, as long as we can win against the trans.
  • We enjoy mocking and dehumanizing female trans people and do not believe they should be included in feminism. We think it is funny when they are harmed because they are libfems and libfems are the bad guys. We are more concerned with punishing them than addressing the societal issues that enabled them to transition in the first place. We believe that drawing any boundaries around how we speak to/about these women is derailing the movement.
  • We also believe that drawing any boundaries around the way we speak to/about women who remind us of these women (such as butch lesbians or women with hirsutism) is derailing the movement. We believe it's fine to repost photos of random women and mock them for being TIFs without actually knowing for sure whether or not they are TIFs. Mocking women's appearance is essential tradfeminist praxis and any attempt to derail this mockery is pandering to libfems.

footnotes:
N/A

history:
posted 1/26/2025
edited 1/27/2025 - minor grammar corrections.

with help from:
N/A
Edited Jan 27 2025, 6:42 PM by Possum.
Reply
Reply
Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
Jan 26 2025, 10:08 PM #3

THE PHRASE "TERF" (TRANS-EXCLUSIVE RADICAL FEMINIST)


LIBFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We hate TERFs because TERF stands for Trans-Exclusive-Something-Something so therefore they hate trans people and want them to die. We see TERF as a label that can apply to basically anyone that goes against trans ideology or disagrees with us in general. Elon Musk, Donald Trump, and Matt Walsh are TERFs.
  • TERFs exclusively focus on hating trans people and wanting them to die. TERFs don't care about any social issues at all beyond blind hatred of trans people for no reason.
  • TERFs pretend to care about AFABs but this is false. They hate trans men, transmascs, and AFAB nonbinaries because TERFs hate it when female people are masculine. They want to make it illegal for AFAB people to be masculine.
  • TERFs blindly hate trans people because they think trans people are ugly and weird. They have no actual criticisms of trans ideology, they simply hate gender nonconformity. This extends to GNC or queer people who are not even trans. TERFs think butch lesbians or women with hirsutism should be banned from female spaces because they look masculine.

RADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • "TERF" stands for Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminist. Many of us have adopted the label TERF as a self-descriptor because we are constantly being called TERFs. However, technically "TERF" is not an accurate description of our beliefs as we are male-exclusive, not trans-exclusive. We believe that the goal of radfeminism is to liberate female people from male oppression, and so all male people (including ones who identify as trans) are excluded.
  • TERF centers trans ideology in our activism, but in reality criticism of trans ideology is just one piece of our belief system. Again, our goal is to liberate female people from male oppression so our criticism of trans ideology is just one part of that goal.
  • Female trans people are included under our definition of female. We do not do pronoun circles or entertain the idea that gender identity is real, but we want all female people to be liberated from male oppression. This includes female trans people even though we strongly disagree with them. We do not want to force female trans people to be conventionally feminine and we do not wish violence on them, we just disagree with trans ideology.
  • Many of us are detrans, desisted, or have trans loved ones and came into radfeminism because we personally experienced or witnessed harm from trans ideology. Many of us peaked by witnessing the way female trans people were being abused by male trans people, or the unique ways trans ideology preys on vulnerable female people. Our criticisms are typically coming from a place of genuine concern and not blind hatred or disgust.

TRADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We identify as TERFs because TERF stands for Trans-Exclusive-Something-Something and we are trans exclusive. We see TERF as a label that can apply to basically anyone that goes against trans ideology. Elon Musk, Donald Trump, and Matt Walsh are TERFs.
  • TERF centers trans ideology in our activism, which is accurate because we are single-issue about trans ideology. We are willing to burn everything else to the ground, up to and including women's suffrage, as long as we can win against the trans.
  • We enjoy mocking and dehumanizing female trans people and do not believe they should be included in feminism. We think it is funny when they are harmed because they are libfems and libfems are the bad guys. We are more concerned with punishing them than addressing the societal issues that enabled them to transition in the first place. We believe that drawing any boundaries around how we speak to/about these women is derailing the movement.
  • We also believe that drawing any boundaries around the way we speak to/about women who remind us of these women (such as butch lesbians or women with hirsutism) is derailing the movement. We believe it's fine to repost photos of random women and mock them for being TIFs without actually knowing for sure whether or not they are TIFs. Mocking women's appearance is essential tradfeminist praxis and any attempt to derail this mockery is pandering to libfems.

footnotes:
N/A

history:
posted 1/26/2025
edited 1/27/2025 - minor grammar corrections.

with help from:
N/A

Reply
Reply
Elsacat
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Jan 27 2025, 10:13 AM
#4
This is so well thought out! (I gave up trying to slot myself into any of the "isms" because I realize how uneducated I am on a lot of it and how badly I've misused some of the terms.) May I add a few ideas here? You can let me know if you think they fit into what you've laid out, or if I'm plowing a completely different field here.

- Trump is bad, and Trumpism/MAGA will outlive him and continue to be bad regardless of its figurehead. (swap "bad" for "good/necessary evil" for the tradfem view)

- something in the Radfem section about welcoming in those who were previously libfem or tradfem and realized those ideologies are fundamentally harmful to women. Because a lot of women don't start out radfem, they find their way there through other ideologies that they gradually realize are not helping or serving them, similar to the description of desisted/detrans.

- something in Radfem section about understanding that "gender critical" means "critical of gender and gender stereotypes, going beyond criticism of trans ideology", and the libfem/tradfem sections could probably have "conflates gender criticism with trans criticism and sees little to no issue with forcing people into gender stereotypes"

- something in the libfem and tradfem sections about "elevating men's voices over women's, when the men are repeating things women have already been saying, is fine as long as they're saying the same things the women were saying." Whereas for radfem, pointing out the women's voices and elevating the women's voices over the male latecomers is the priority. (see also "Where are the feminists?" Usually being talked over by men)
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Elsacat
Jan 27 2025, 10:13 AM #4

This is so well thought out! (I gave up trying to slot myself into any of the "isms" because I realize how uneducated I am on a lot of it and how badly I've misused some of the terms.) May I add a few ideas here? You can let me know if you think they fit into what you've laid out, or if I'm plowing a completely different field here.

- Trump is bad, and Trumpism/MAGA will outlive him and continue to be bad regardless of its figurehead. (swap "bad" for "good/necessary evil" for the tradfem view)

- something in the Radfem section about welcoming in those who were previously libfem or tradfem and realized those ideologies are fundamentally harmful to women. Because a lot of women don't start out radfem, they find their way there through other ideologies that they gradually realize are not helping or serving them, similar to the description of desisted/detrans.

- something in Radfem section about understanding that "gender critical" means "critical of gender and gender stereotypes, going beyond criticism of trans ideology", and the libfem/tradfem sections could probably have "conflates gender criticism with trans criticism and sees little to no issue with forcing people into gender stereotypes"

- something in the libfem and tradfem sections about "elevating men's voices over women's, when the men are repeating things women have already been saying, is fine as long as they're saying the same things the women were saying." Whereas for radfem, pointing out the women's voices and elevating the women's voices over the male latecomers is the priority. (see also "Where are the feminists?" Usually being talked over by men)

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Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
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86
Jan 27 2025, 5:57 PM
#5
(Jan 27 2025, 10:13 AM)Elsacat May I add a few ideas here? You can let me know if you think they fit into what you've laid out, or if I'm plowing a completely different field here.
Yep feedback is 100% welcome! I love the points you made, I edited my OG posts a bit to work some of them in.

Also I started working in your point on radfems welcoming former libfems/tradfems and then accidentally went off on some tangents so that might either get it's own section or edited down a bit to fit into a current section. Same with your point on elevating male voices, went off on some tangents so will probably expand that into a section called something like "views on male voices/participation in feminism". I'm trying to keep things broken up into sections because I have a tendency to write giant messy walls of text if I'm not careful, lol.
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Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
Jan 27 2025, 5:57 PM #5

(Jan 27 2025, 10:13 AM)Elsacat May I add a few ideas here? You can let me know if you think they fit into what you've laid out, or if I'm plowing a completely different field here.
Yep feedback is 100% welcome! I love the points you made, I edited my OG posts a bit to work some of them in.

Also I started working in your point on radfems welcoming former libfems/tradfems and then accidentally went off on some tangents so that might either get it's own section or edited down a bit to fit into a current section. Same with your point on elevating male voices, went off on some tangents so will probably expand that into a section called something like "views on male voices/participation in feminism". I'm trying to keep things broken up into sections because I have a tendency to write giant messy walls of text if I'm not careful, lol.

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Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
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86
Jan 27 2025, 6:40 PM
#6
OTHER SYSTEMS OF OPPRESSION

LIBFEM

  • The main job of libfeminism is to focus on other oppressed groups, especially male members of those oppressed groups. Our job is to act as mother figures within politics, and to put other groups before ourselves at all times.
  • "All women" refers to all people who identify as women, including male people.
  • A misogynistic statement automatically becomes non-misogynistic if you put white (or straight, white, cis, able-bodied, wealthy, etc) in front of it. For example, "cis women deserve to be raped" is harmless venting because cis women are not oppressed in any way since misogyny does not actually exist as it's own serious form of oppression.
  • Libfeminism is for EVERYONE, so we must prioritize all systems of oppression over misogyny. In fact, many of us believe misogyny does not exist as it's own form of oppression at all.
  • "Misogyny" is actually just racism, or classism, or homophobia, or biphobia, or ableism, or transphobia (especially transphobia). Absolutely no women are oppressed solely for being women, it's always a different system of oppression being mislabeled as misogyny and any attempts to discuss misogyny as it's own thing is derailing from more important conversations about those other systems.

RADFEM

  • Radfeminism is for all women, so we must acknowledge other systems of oppression because many women fall under these other systems of oppression.
  • "All women" refers to all women. Not every woman is a white, middle-upper class, straight, Christian, American woman. In fact white, middle-upper class, straight, Christian, American women are technically a small minority of women compared to the global majority of women.
  • It is not the job of radfeminism to focus on men, even if those men are part of an oppressed group. However we still believe oppression toward them is wrong. We criticize the misogyny present in the gay male community, but we don't support violence or homophobia toward gay men in general.
  • A bigoted statement doesn't automatically become non-bigoted just because you put the word 'men' in it. Additionally, bigotry is not going to stay neatly contained in a little box labeled "bad men only". Bigotry (genuine bigotry, not criticism of their misogyny) toward the male members of a group will almost always end up hitting the women of that group as well. Spreading disinformation that Haitian men are eating dogs is:
    A: Genuinely bigoted toward Haitian men and
    B: Going to impact Haitian women and children. Racists are not going to ONLY target the men, they will use this rhetoric as justification to target all Haitian immigrants and
    C: By extension, possibly target all black people because racists are fucking stupid and will assume that every black person with an accent is a Haitian immigrant. See also: Americans hate-criming random Sikhs after 9/11 because they assumed every brown man with a head covering was Bin Laden.
  • Learning about classism helps us reach poor women, learning about racism helps us reach WOC, learning about homophobia and biphobia helps us reach same-sex attracted women, learning about ableism helps us reach disabled women, etc. Talking about and learning about these other systems of oppression can help us recognize the many different ways women suffer under patriarchy, and will make us better equipped to fight misogyny.

TRADFEM

  • The other systems of oppression are either not real or are completely irrelevant to tradfeminism.
  • Tradfeminism is for all women, so we must not acknowledge any systems of oppression other than the misogyny experienced by women like us or else we will derail the movement.
  • "All" women means "women who are normal/women who are like me". Typically we use "all women" to refer to white, middle-upper class, straight, Christian, American women because we believe these women are the default women.
  • It is not the job of tradfeminism to focus on men, even if those men are part of an oppressed group. Therefore oppression toward them is funny and justified. We criticize the misogyny present in the gay male community, and sometimes we also call them slurs or argue that they deserved the AIDs epidemic.
  • A bigoted statement automatically becomes non-bigoted and tradfeminist as long as you do not include the word "woman". For example:
    A: "Haitian men eat dogs so we need to deport them" is harmless because it specifically says men.
    B: "Haitian people eat dogs so we need to deport them" is also harmless because it doesn't specifically say women, it says people.
    C: "Haitian women eat dogs so we need to deport them" is cutting pretty close to the line, but in some cases may still be acceptable since it's only directed toward those specific Haitian women who are eating dogs and not all women (see above for our definition of 'all women').
  • Learning about classism distracts us from reaching all women, learning about racism distracts us from reaching all women, learning about homophobia and biphobia distracts us from reaching all women, learning about ableism distracts us from reaching all women, etc. Talking about these other systems of oppression makes it impossible to talk about the normal misogyny that normal women face and derails the movement.


footnotes:
N/A

history:
posted 1/27/2025

with help from:
N/A
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Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
Jan 27 2025, 6:40 PM #6

OTHER SYSTEMS OF OPPRESSION

LIBFEM

  • The main job of libfeminism is to focus on other oppressed groups, especially male members of those oppressed groups. Our job is to act as mother figures within politics, and to put other groups before ourselves at all times.
  • "All women" refers to all people who identify as women, including male people.
  • A misogynistic statement automatically becomes non-misogynistic if you put white (or straight, white, cis, able-bodied, wealthy, etc) in front of it. For example, "cis women deserve to be raped" is harmless venting because cis women are not oppressed in any way since misogyny does not actually exist as it's own serious form of oppression.
  • Libfeminism is for EVERYONE, so we must prioritize all systems of oppression over misogyny. In fact, many of us believe misogyny does not exist as it's own form of oppression at all.
  • "Misogyny" is actually just racism, or classism, or homophobia, or biphobia, or ableism, or transphobia (especially transphobia). Absolutely no women are oppressed solely for being women, it's always a different system of oppression being mislabeled as misogyny and any attempts to discuss misogyny as it's own thing is derailing from more important conversations about those other systems.

RADFEM

  • Radfeminism is for all women, so we must acknowledge other systems of oppression because many women fall under these other systems of oppression.
  • "All women" refers to all women. Not every woman is a white, middle-upper class, straight, Christian, American woman. In fact white, middle-upper class, straight, Christian, American women are technically a small minority of women compared to the global majority of women.
  • It is not the job of radfeminism to focus on men, even if those men are part of an oppressed group. However we still believe oppression toward them is wrong. We criticize the misogyny present in the gay male community, but we don't support violence or homophobia toward gay men in general.
  • A bigoted statement doesn't automatically become non-bigoted just because you put the word 'men' in it. Additionally, bigotry is not going to stay neatly contained in a little box labeled "bad men only". Bigotry (genuine bigotry, not criticism of their misogyny) toward the male members of a group will almost always end up hitting the women of that group as well. Spreading disinformation that Haitian men are eating dogs is:
    A: Genuinely bigoted toward Haitian men and
    B: Going to impact Haitian women and children. Racists are not going to ONLY target the men, they will use this rhetoric as justification to target all Haitian immigrants and
    C: By extension, possibly target all black people because racists are fucking stupid and will assume that every black person with an accent is a Haitian immigrant. See also: Americans hate-criming random Sikhs after 9/11 because they assumed every brown man with a head covering was Bin Laden.
  • Learning about classism helps us reach poor women, learning about racism helps us reach WOC, learning about homophobia and biphobia helps us reach same-sex attracted women, learning about ableism helps us reach disabled women, etc. Talking about and learning about these other systems of oppression can help us recognize the many different ways women suffer under patriarchy, and will make us better equipped to fight misogyny.

TRADFEM

  • The other systems of oppression are either not real or are completely irrelevant to tradfeminism.
  • Tradfeminism is for all women, so we must not acknowledge any systems of oppression other than the misogyny experienced by women like us or else we will derail the movement.
  • "All" women means "women who are normal/women who are like me". Typically we use "all women" to refer to white, middle-upper class, straight, Christian, American women because we believe these women are the default women.
  • It is not the job of tradfeminism to focus on men, even if those men are part of an oppressed group. Therefore oppression toward them is funny and justified. We criticize the misogyny present in the gay male community, and sometimes we also call them slurs or argue that they deserved the AIDs epidemic.
  • A bigoted statement automatically becomes non-bigoted and tradfeminist as long as you do not include the word "woman". For example:
    A: "Haitian men eat dogs so we need to deport them" is harmless because it specifically says men.
    B: "Haitian people eat dogs so we need to deport them" is also harmless because it doesn't specifically say women, it says people.
    C: "Haitian women eat dogs so we need to deport them" is cutting pretty close to the line, but in some cases may still be acceptable since it's only directed toward those specific Haitian women who are eating dogs and not all women (see above for our definition of 'all women').
  • Learning about classism distracts us from reaching all women, learning about racism distracts us from reaching all women, learning about homophobia and biphobia distracts us from reaching all women, learning about ableism distracts us from reaching all women, etc. Talking about these other systems of oppression makes it impossible to talk about the normal misogyny that normal women face and derails the movement.


footnotes:
N/A

history:
posted 1/27/2025

with help from:
N/A

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komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
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316
Jan 27 2025, 6:57 PM
#7
Possum, thank you so much for the thoughtful write-up. 💜 You've given me the language to understand what I see happening on Ovarit sometimes—your description of "tradfem" is so apt.
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komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
Jan 27 2025, 6:57 PM #7

Possum, thank you so much for the thoughtful write-up. 💜 You've given me the language to understand what I see happening on Ovarit sometimes—your description of "tradfem" is so apt.

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Elsacat
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223
Jan 28 2025, 9:03 AM
#8
I'm in awe of your ability to collect these thoughts and organize them. I feel like my brain just doesn't work that way any more. I'm glad yours does!
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Elsacat
Jan 28 2025, 9:03 AM #8

I'm in awe of your ability to collect these thoughts and organize them. I feel like my brain just doesn't work that way any more. I'm glad yours does!

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Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
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86
Jan 28 2025, 1:01 PM
#9
@komorebi @Elsacat

Thank you both so much! :catblush:

I'm glad others are finding this useful.
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Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
Jan 28 2025, 1:01 PM #9

@komorebi @Elsacat

Thank you both so much! :catblush:

I'm glad others are finding this useful.

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Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
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86
Jan 28 2025, 1:01 PM
#10
SOLIDARITY

LIBFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We typically define solidarity as the act of agreeing with us at all times no matter what. We believe that the best way to encourage libfeminist solidarity is to turn every minor disagreement into a Maoist struggle session. This way, everyone will be too broken and miserable to go against the group. We believe we can achieve cooperation through guilt, shame, and fear.
  • We encourage solidarity by forming a complicated (and ever-changing) Oppression Hierarchy with the "most oppressed" at the top and the "least oppressed" at the bottom. You can speak however you want toward someone lower than you, but must be endlessly kind and gentle toward those who are higher than you.
  • We encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality between libfeminism and other ideologies. We believe radfems are inherently evil and have no interest in sharing our perspective with them or listening to their perspectives. We believe strict ideological purity is essential, and any discussion with other groups will water down our movement.
  • Any amount of discomfort is okay, in fact you should just always be miserable. The point of libfeminist solidarity is to feel as ashamed and guilty as possible at all times. If you are not constantly experiencing guilt and shame, you are at risk of becoming a Nazi. Constant guilt and shame is how we motivate ourselves to Do Better.
  • We define "tone-policing" as any boundaries around how someone speaks to/about someone lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than them. For example:
  • A: "As a trans woman I think cis lesbians who don't suck girldick deserve to be raped.". It would be tone policing to shut this down, because cis lesbians are lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than trans women.
  • B: "As a lesbian it pisses me off when trans women threaten to rape me and it's fucked up that you keep telling me to ignore it." It would not be tone policing to shut this down, because cis lesbians are lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than trans women.
  • Any amount of abuse or dehumanization is acceptable for women we disagree with. We believe that solidarity is when you accept constant abuse and dehumanization with a smile. We may test your allegiance to our movement by dogpiling you for a minor faux-pas and then dogpiling you even harder when you apologize. We enjoy sending graphic threats of rape and violence and doxxing people we disagree with because they deserve it. It is literally impossible to go too far, any level of abuse is acceptable for women we disagree with.

RADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We typically define solidarity as the idea that all women are suffering under patriarchy, so all women have the potential to be our allies in the fight against patriarchy. However, we also recognize that all women are not automatically our allies just because they have the potential to become our allies. Many women are anti-feminist and have beliefs that go against radfeminist principles. Many women have beliefs that are bigoted or harmful toward women. Solidarity does not mean that we automatically agree with all women, solidarity means that:
  • A: We oppose the oppression of all women, even the women we disagree with and
  • B: We do not dehumanize/abuse the women we disagree with.
  • We encourage solidarity by sticking to our principles while maintaining a baseline level of civility for all women. Solidarity does not mean we have to agree with and be kind to all women, it means that even when we disagree with women we don't cross a line into abuse or dehumanization.
  • We do not encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality toward libfeminists or tradfeminists. Many of us came into radfeminism from libfeminism, tradfeminism, or other ideologies. Many of us became interested in radfeminism because we realized that tradfeminism and libfeminism were not helping or serving women. Many of us have an understanding of typical libfem and tradfem perspectives, and this is valuable because it helps us to strengthen the radfeminist perspective. We need to understand the other side in order to effectively argue against them. Solidarity means giving tradfems and libfems the opportunity to learn about radfeminism and change their minds. However, it does not mean compromising our principles to attract tradfems and libfems who are not open to learning about radfeminism and changing their minds.
  • Some amount of discomfort is okay. It can feel uncomfortable to be disagreed with or corrected. It can feel uncomfortable to be told that you are being bigoted or harmful toward other women. Women have the right to speak in ways that make you uncomfortable as long as it's not crossing a line into abuse or dehumanization. If the discourse is making you miserable or affecting your mental health, it's okay to walk away for a while. Misery isn't actually productive and will not make you a better radfeminist or activist.
  • We define "tone policing" as demanding that women be kind and gentle at all times, even when their rights are being violated. "Tone policing" is frequently used to shut down women who are making valid points, and it's especially weaponized to shut down minority women. Women who are loud, angry, or harsh are not automatically abusive. For example:
  • A: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly they PISS ME OFF!!!.". It would be tone policing to shut this down, because the woman is not abusing/dehumanizing other women. She is just pissed off.
  • B: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly I hope they get raped." It would not be tone policing to shut this down, because it crosses the line into abuse/dehumanization.
  • No amount of abuse or dehumanization is okay. We can disagree with other women (and even disagree strongly and passionately) without crossing a line into abuse or dehumanization. If a woman is crossing the line into alt-right rhetoric, extreme libfem rhetoric, or is being abusive toward other women, it may be necessary to ban her from the space but it is still wrong to abuse or dehumanize her as revenge. Loud disagreement is fine, banhammer is fine in some cases, rape threats are never fine.

TRADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We define solidarity as the act of agreeing with us at all times no matter what. We believe that anyone who disagrees with us is either a libfem or pandering to libfems.
  • We encourage solidarity by constructing a "default" woman (typically white, middle-upper class, straight, and American) and centering our space entirely around her comfort. We believe that non-default women must show solidarity by being sweet and gentle toward default women at all times.
  • We encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality between tradfeminism and libfeminism. We believe libfems, former libfems, and women who remind us of libfems (typically minority women) are inherently evil. We have no interest in sharing our perspective with them or listening to their perspectives. We believe strict ideological purity is essential, and any discussion with other groups will water down our movement.
  • No amount of discomfort is okay for the default woman. We must be sweet and gentle towards her at all times, even when she is being anti-feminist or bigoted toward other women. The primary goal of solidarity is to make the default woman feel welcome in tradfeminism even when she is being anti-feminist. Any amount of discomfort is okay for non-default women, up to and including abuse and dehumanization. The non-default woman has an obligation to swallow this discomfort for the sake of tradfeminist solidarity.
  • We define "tone policing" as any attempt to draw boundaries around how we speak to/about non-default women. Default women are allowed to say whatever they want, because if we limit their speech we will drive them away from tradfeminism. For example:
  • A: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly they PISS ME OFF!!!". It would not be tone policing to shut this down because it crosses the line into making default women feel uncomfortable.
  • B: "Who cares about detrans women? They're all stupid libfems for transitioning in the first place so it'd be funny if they got raped by the trans males they used to worship". It would be tone policing to shut this down because it targets non-default women instead of default women, and is therefore not a problem. Additionally, the statement was likely made by a default woman and we cannot drive default women away from tradfeminism.
  • Abuse or dehumanization toward non-default women is sometimes a necessary evil. It is impossible to disagree with libfeminism without sometimes crossing a line into abuse/dehumanization. Banning default women from a space for crossing the line into abuse/dehumanization will lead to purity spirals and the death of our movement. Banning non-default women from a space for loudly or passionately disagreeing will prevent purity spirals and make our movement stronger. 


footnotes:
N/A

history:
posted 1/28/2025

with help from:
thanks @Elsacat for the point on welcoming former libs/trads! view her post here.
Reply
Reply
Possum
angry lesbian 🌈
Jan 28 2025, 1:01 PM #10

SOLIDARITY

LIBFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We typically define solidarity as the act of agreeing with us at all times no matter what. We believe that the best way to encourage libfeminist solidarity is to turn every minor disagreement into a Maoist struggle session. This way, everyone will be too broken and miserable to go against the group. We believe we can achieve cooperation through guilt, shame, and fear.
  • We encourage solidarity by forming a complicated (and ever-changing) Oppression Hierarchy with the "most oppressed" at the top and the "least oppressed" at the bottom. You can speak however you want toward someone lower than you, but must be endlessly kind and gentle toward those who are higher than you.
  • We encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality between libfeminism and other ideologies. We believe radfems are inherently evil and have no interest in sharing our perspective with them or listening to their perspectives. We believe strict ideological purity is essential, and any discussion with other groups will water down our movement.
  • Any amount of discomfort is okay, in fact you should just always be miserable. The point of libfeminist solidarity is to feel as ashamed and guilty as possible at all times. If you are not constantly experiencing guilt and shame, you are at risk of becoming a Nazi. Constant guilt and shame is how we motivate ourselves to Do Better.
  • We define "tone-policing" as any boundaries around how someone speaks to/about someone lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than them. For example:
  • A: "As a trans woman I think cis lesbians who don't suck girldick deserve to be raped.". It would be tone policing to shut this down, because cis lesbians are lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than trans women.
  • B: "As a lesbian it pisses me off when trans women threaten to rape me and it's fucked up that you keep telling me to ignore it." It would not be tone policing to shut this down, because cis lesbians are lower on the Oppression Hierarchy than trans women.
  • Any amount of abuse or dehumanization is acceptable for women we disagree with. We believe that solidarity is when you accept constant abuse and dehumanization with a smile. We may test your allegiance to our movement by dogpiling you for a minor faux-pas and then dogpiling you even harder when you apologize. We enjoy sending graphic threats of rape and violence and doxxing people we disagree with because they deserve it. It is literally impossible to go too far, any level of abuse is acceptable for women we disagree with.

RADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We typically define solidarity as the idea that all women are suffering under patriarchy, so all women have the potential to be our allies in the fight against patriarchy. However, we also recognize that all women are not automatically our allies just because they have the potential to become our allies. Many women are anti-feminist and have beliefs that go against radfeminist principles. Many women have beliefs that are bigoted or harmful toward women. Solidarity does not mean that we automatically agree with all women, solidarity means that:
  • A: We oppose the oppression of all women, even the women we disagree with and
  • B: We do not dehumanize/abuse the women we disagree with.
  • We encourage solidarity by sticking to our principles while maintaining a baseline level of civility for all women. Solidarity does not mean we have to agree with and be kind to all women, it means that even when we disagree with women we don't cross a line into abuse or dehumanization.
  • We do not encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality toward libfeminists or tradfeminists. Many of us came into radfeminism from libfeminism, tradfeminism, or other ideologies. Many of us became interested in radfeminism because we realized that tradfeminism and libfeminism were not helping or serving women. Many of us have an understanding of typical libfem and tradfem perspectives, and this is valuable because it helps us to strengthen the radfeminist perspective. We need to understand the other side in order to effectively argue against them. Solidarity means giving tradfems and libfems the opportunity to learn about radfeminism and change their minds. However, it does not mean compromising our principles to attract tradfems and libfems who are not open to learning about radfeminism and changing their minds.
  • Some amount of discomfort is okay. It can feel uncomfortable to be disagreed with or corrected. It can feel uncomfortable to be told that you are being bigoted or harmful toward other women. Women have the right to speak in ways that make you uncomfortable as long as it's not crossing a line into abuse or dehumanization. If the discourse is making you miserable or affecting your mental health, it's okay to walk away for a while. Misery isn't actually productive and will not make you a better radfeminist or activist.
  • We define "tone policing" as demanding that women be kind and gentle at all times, even when their rights are being violated. "Tone policing" is frequently used to shut down women who are making valid points, and it's especially weaponized to shut down minority women. Women who are loud, angry, or harsh are not automatically abusive. For example:
  • A: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly they PISS ME OFF!!!.". It would be tone policing to shut this down, because the woman is not abusing/dehumanizing other women. She is just pissed off.
  • B: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly I hope they get raped." It would not be tone policing to shut this down, because it crosses the line into abuse/dehumanization.
  • No amount of abuse or dehumanization is okay. We can disagree with other women (and even disagree strongly and passionately) without crossing a line into abuse or dehumanization. If a woman is crossing the line into alt-right rhetoric, extreme libfem rhetoric, or is being abusive toward other women, it may be necessary to ban her from the space but it is still wrong to abuse or dehumanize her as revenge. Loud disagreement is fine, banhammer is fine in some cases, rape threats are never fine.

TRADFEM PERSPECTIVE

  • We define solidarity as the act of agreeing with us at all times no matter what. We believe that anyone who disagrees with us is either a libfem or pandering to libfems.
  • We encourage solidarity by constructing a "default" woman (typically white, middle-upper class, straight, and American) and centering our space entirely around her comfort. We believe that non-default women must show solidarity by being sweet and gentle toward default women at all times.
  • We encourage a strict us-vs-them mentality between tradfeminism and libfeminism. We believe libfems, former libfems, and women who remind us of libfems (typically minority women) are inherently evil. We have no interest in sharing our perspective with them or listening to their perspectives. We believe strict ideological purity is essential, and any discussion with other groups will water down our movement.
  • No amount of discomfort is okay for the default woman. We must be sweet and gentle towards her at all times, even when she is being anti-feminist or bigoted toward other women. The primary goal of solidarity is to make the default woman feel welcome in tradfeminism even when she is being anti-feminist. Any amount of discomfort is okay for non-default women, up to and including abuse and dehumanization. The non-default woman has an obligation to swallow this discomfort for the sake of tradfeminist solidarity.
  • We define "tone policing" as any attempt to draw boundaries around how we speak to/about non-default women. Default women are allowed to say whatever they want, because if we limit their speech we will drive them away from tradfeminism. For example:
  • A: "Straight women who worship Trump are anti-feminist lesbophobes and honestly they PISS ME OFF!!!". It would not be tone policing to shut this down because it crosses the line into making default women feel uncomfortable.
  • B: "Who cares about detrans women? They're all stupid libfems for transitioning in the first place so it'd be funny if they got raped by the trans males they used to worship". It would be tone policing to shut this down because it targets non-default women instead of default women, and is therefore not a problem. Additionally, the statement was likely made by a default woman and we cannot drive default women away from tradfeminism.
  • Abuse or dehumanization toward non-default women is sometimes a necessary evil. It is impossible to disagree with libfeminism without sometimes crossing a line into abuse/dehumanization. Banning default women from a space for crossing the line into abuse/dehumanization will lead to purity spirals and the death of our movement. Banning non-default women from a space for loudly or passionately disagreeing will prevent purity spirals and make our movement stronger. 


footnotes:
N/A

history:
posted 1/28/2025

with help from:
thanks @Elsacat for the point on welcoming former libs/trads! view her post here.

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