How to see gender-nonconformity in men when it comes across as a fetish?

clovenhooves The Personal Is Political Gender Critical Gender Nonconformity How to see gender-nonconformity in men when it comes across as a fetish?

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Wandering_Feminist56

Mar 17 2025, 7:01 AM

I feel like it's a bit of a double bind. GNC is good and well, but often when I do see GNC males it feels like a fetish. Recently I've seen a man with short hair and men's clothes wear fishnets and heels, another one was dressed in red and pink women's clothing with a beard, and I regularly see the pantyhose/fishnet dude with red heels... Always the same. Both of them did not come across as making a fashion or gender statement, but as creeps and possibly narcissists trying to draw attention to themselves.

There're times where GNC in males seems fitting and non-creepy, like alternative styles or whatever, but I get the distinct feeling that a bunch of them definitely are inappropriate and they give me the ick.

I feel like there's a difference between male GNC in theory and male GNC in practical reality: gross creepy men ruining everything. I don't like paticipating in someone's fetish. How do you see this?

Wandering_Feminist56

Mar 17 2025, 7:01 AM #1

noray

Mar 17 2025, 7:41 AM

Yeah definitely.

For example a lot of men's ideas of women and femininity come directly from the patriarchy, and when it comes to straight men it's very related to being a fetish (a lot of the time) because they have weird ideas about women, submission, and inferiority which they fetishize into some weird humiliation ritual. I find it's more likely to happen in straight men but gay men can have their complexes for it too.

One red flag for me is when men like to infantilize themselves (IE: men who wear girls' clothing) in a way that's very unusual as a woman their age would not dress in. Another red flag is their only expression of femininity is pornified and they don't have normal feminine outfits appropriate to the occasion, IE: wearing a leather miniskirt to work or fishnets in a casual setting.

With straight men particularly - especially with femboys, I've noticed the way they often do their hair can be ponytails and pigtails in a childlike way. They often copy anime girl fashion through thigh highs and pleated schoolgirl skirts. They will often change the way they type and act on the internet to be more childlike, because this is how many men perceive femininity - that is, to literally be a child. This is similar to some gay men as well, twink culture very much rests on looking as young as possible because of our society's view that femininity = childlike, unfortunately this has led to a culture of sexual abuse towards young gay men.

Another aspect is bimbofication, men see masculinity/men = intelligence, and to validate their "femininity" they deviate from intelligence and enjoy bimbofication.

[Image: tTe7Zl1.png]

Unfortunately a lot of women have these ideas of femininity too, and are also into this subculture.

This aside, the green flag for male gnc is really just the organic "be yourself" type of femininity. Guy enjoys painting his nails, gardening, and female hobbies etc, he just does that. It's not a huge fetishized show, it's just what he likes. Vibes wise you can feel the difference. It's not exaggerated or oddly sexual, it's a human being not conforming to gender stereotypes.

And remember, femininity and masculinity is invented.

noray

Mar 17 2025, 7:41 AM #2

Elsacat

223

Mar 17 2025, 8:24 AM

I think there's a difference between GNC and fetish behavior, just like there's a difference between gender conformity and fetish behavior.

There's no reason I should take the non-trans guy prancing around in fishnets and heels any more seriously than the guy walking around in black leather, chaps, and showing his muscles. They're showing off fetishes, not gender conformity/nonconformity.

A man who might wear a non-fetishy skirt, or a frilly blouse, or non-garish makeup, or feminine jewelry here and there - it looks odd to me because it isn't something I've seen all my life, but I'm in favor of his right to do so without harassment. A guy with bad skin who wants to buy some concealer or color-correcting makeup? Sure, don't shame him. A hair accessory? No problem. "Man buns" get mocked, but they're practical for longer-haired men, so why not? If it's done in a way that isn't fetishy or "look at me" (other than the looks people get for doing anything nonconforming), I don't have an issue.

Elsacat

Mar 17 2025, 8:24 AM #3

komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde

316

Mar 17 2025, 12:29 PM

Came here to echo what Elsacat said. Of course, I'm not going to bat for creeps who push their fetishes on others. However, that's how we should see it—as creeps pushing their fetishes on others. This might sound like a bit of a no true Scotsman, but personally, I don't even really consider it "gender nonconformity," because if you think about it, men being gross about sex, violating other people's boundaries, and doing things without obtaining consent is pretty fucking male. 🤣 Maybe think of it this way: there are men who have foot fetishes, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange about men having feet. Similarly, there's men...and unfortunately a whole fucking lot of them...who fetishize their version of gender nonconformity, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange or bad about gender nonconformity itself.

I hope we can be careful to draw that distinction about this issue here, because this was one of the things that turned me off about Ovarit—that is, the increase in the number of people sanctioning gender nonconformity in comments because of these creeps. I get it, I totally get it, they're forcing you to participate in their fetish and it's disgusting. But it is dangerous to fall into the trap of being like "well then all men should be forced to wear pants"...because the obvious flip side of that is that all women should be forced to wear skirts.

Side note: I actually tried raising this point in a message with the mods in o/GenderCritical, because to be blunt, if you think men should wear pants and only women can wear skirts, you're not critical of gender, you're enforcing it. But they were not receptive, so...yeah. 😔

komorebi

“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde

Mar 17 2025, 12:29 PM #4

magdalyn

Mar 19 2025, 8:53 AM

Quote:I don't even really consider it "gender nonconformity," because if you think about it, men being gross about sex, violating other people's boundaries, and doing things without obtaining consent is pretty fucking male.

This is it, 100%.

Quote:Similarly, there's men...and unfortunately a whole fucking lot of them...who fetishize their version of gender nonconformity, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange or bad about gender nonconformity itself.

Absolutely. I wish I could have articulated this back during the whole brony thing - when my son was about 8 or 9 and liked MLP. Men fetishizing a thing doesn't make that thing bad! And it doesn't mean that a child liking a children's show (for instance) means he's going to somehow become a man fetishizing a children's show.

Edited Mar 19 2025, 9:06 AM by magdalyn.

magdalyn

Mar 19 2025, 8:53 AM #5

Quote:I don't even really consider it "gender nonconformity," because if you think about it, men being gross about sex, violating other people's boundaries, and doing things without obtaining consent is pretty fucking male.

This is it, 100%.

Quote:Similarly, there's men...and unfortunately a whole fucking lot of them...who fetishize their version of gender nonconformity, but that doesn't mean there's anything strange or bad about gender nonconformity itself.

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