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		<title><![CDATA[clovenhooves - Female Separatism]]></title>
		<link>https://clovenhooves.org/</link>
		<description><![CDATA[clovenhooves - https://clovenhooves.org]]></description>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2026 13:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[Anti-Marriage Post Breaks Up-Vote Record on Rednote]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1870</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2026 03:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=478">Impress Polly</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1870</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Something exciting happened this last week over on the Chinese social media: a woman's hilarious joke about conditions for marriage on Rednote broke the country's social media post up-vote record. She, of course, was banned, along with with her screen name itself and her post deleted everywhere, along with the supportive ones participating in the gag because it is considered unacceptable hate speech in China to feminist under Xi Jinpig's "culture of marriage and childbearing". <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/4bmovement/comments/1q8dz4h/the_great_social_experiment_that_got_nuked_and/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">QuiUnQuenched shared about it with us over on the 4B subreddit</a>. Chex out the news!  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meow-popcorn.gif" alt=":popcorn:" title=":popcorn:" class="smilie smilie_24" /><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">The Great "Social Experiment" that got nuked and shadowbanned in 2 days </span><br />
<br />
Women who don't speak Chinese should also know about the greatest joke of Chinese social media: they nuked a user and shadowbanned almost every screenshot collection on multiple platforms of that user's viral post with record-breaking 2 million likes, which may or may not accidentally revealed the core of marriage to other women.<br />
<br />
A female user of the Chinese social media Rednote(Xiao Hong Shu) posted something 2 days ago, asking others how she could make her "boyfriend" marry into her family (meaning their future kids take her name rather than his; the man himself wouldn't change his name), with a dating app style short description of this "boyfriend", and saying they both are of "very similar backgrounds in every aspect". Men flooded the comment section saying she was daydreaming, claiming their "male ego" and "pride" are priceless, so for some woman to have her "boyfriend" marry in and give up his "lineage", she would have to provide him with about twenty million dollars, luxury cars and mansions, or maybe she happened to be the daughter of their provincial governor and will pave the way for his future political life. When other female users refuted those obviously ridiculous conditions of the men, they insisted that it's different for men and women to marry into someone else's family, and the men suffer oh-so-much on their precious ego that they would deserve everything in the world to compensate them.<br />
<br />
The OP then edited the post saying that the "boyfriend" whose backgrounds were so similar to her own was actually herself but imaginatively born in the other sex, and mockingly said she never knew that men had that much integrity, would give up on easy money when they could earn so much by simply marrying into women's families. She also replied a men saying that she didn't understand why there would be women who would marry into some men's family without any materialistic compensation. Those men started to delete their comments and change usernames when women started keeping screenshots and screen recordings of the post, and those along with the OP went viral on almost every Chinese platform. Some women started to realize the institution of marriage can never be nice and equal to the two sexes: the sex who have the ability to reproduce are the sex disparaged and suppressed, the sex get driven out of their families to sell out their bodies for a roof to sleep under, and finally their names, identities and existence erased in this process, while the sex who aren't blessed with the power of reproduction receive all the resources of their families, get to keep their names and steal away the reproductive labor of others.<br />
<br />
And it ends here. A couple of hours ago, every key word and hashtag related to that post was removed after 2 days of on-and-off shadowbanning of the OP. The OP user's account nuked after men's report barrage. Rednote, as well as every other Chinese social media platform would give up on their money maker only to make way for the patriarchy after the post received 2 million likes, highest ever record of the already nationwide popular app. Now only a few posts apparently written by men remained, preaching apparently unfair "equal" marriages, pretending they're not the beneficiaries of the long-standing institution.<br />
<br />
Update: OP's new account also got nuked. Some users of Rednote tried to change their usernames into the now nuked OP's original one, but to no avail: they found out that even her original username is now censored.<br />
<br />
Another update: I'm quite curious now if there has been any public discussion like this in other countries, as this really is a "first" in our culture. Or are there any Tiktok/Instagram influencers willing to carry out this "experiment" in their culture?</blockquote>
<br />
Xiao Hong Shu =  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meowqueen.png" alt=":meowqueen:" title=":meowqueen:" class="smilie smilie_34" /> <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meowqueen.png" alt=":meowqueen:" title=":meowqueen:" class="smilie smilie_34" /> <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meowqueen.png" alt=":meowqueen:" title=":meowqueen:" class="smilie smilie_34" /> <br />
<br />
At a time when it feels like the women's movement has been placed on the back foot everywhere of late, it refreshed me to read this exciting story.  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meow_adorable.png" alt=":meowdorable:" title=":meowdorable:" class="smilie smilie_10" /> Our Chinese radical sisters have broken through to the cultural mainstream enough that they have to be silenced!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Something exciting happened this last week over on the Chinese social media: a woman's hilarious joke about conditions for marriage on Rednote broke the country's social media post up-vote record. She, of course, was banned, along with with her screen name itself and her post deleted everywhere, along with the supportive ones participating in the gag because it is considered unacceptable hate speech in China to feminist under Xi Jinpig's "culture of marriage and childbearing". <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/4bmovement/comments/1q8dz4h/the_great_social_experiment_that_got_nuked_and/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">QuiUnQuenched shared about it with us over on the 4B subreddit</a>. Chex out the news!  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meow-popcorn.gif" alt=":popcorn:" title=":popcorn:" class="smilie smilie_24" /><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">The Great "Social Experiment" that got nuked and shadowbanned in 2 days </span><br />
<br />
Women who don't speak Chinese should also know about the greatest joke of Chinese social media: they nuked a user and shadowbanned almost every screenshot collection on multiple platforms of that user's viral post with record-breaking 2 million likes, which may or may not accidentally revealed the core of marriage to other women.<br />
<br />
A female user of the Chinese social media Rednote(Xiao Hong Shu) posted something 2 days ago, asking others how she could make her "boyfriend" marry into her family (meaning their future kids take her name rather than his; the man himself wouldn't change his name), with a dating app style short description of this "boyfriend", and saying they both are of "very similar backgrounds in every aspect". Men flooded the comment section saying she was daydreaming, claiming their "male ego" and "pride" are priceless, so for some woman to have her "boyfriend" marry in and give up his "lineage", she would have to provide him with about twenty million dollars, luxury cars and mansions, or maybe she happened to be the daughter of their provincial governor and will pave the way for his future political life. When other female users refuted those obviously ridiculous conditions of the men, they insisted that it's different for men and women to marry into someone else's family, and the men suffer oh-so-much on their precious ego that they would deserve everything in the world to compensate them.<br />
<br />
The OP then edited the post saying that the "boyfriend" whose backgrounds were so similar to her own was actually herself but imaginatively born in the other sex, and mockingly said she never knew that men had that much integrity, would give up on easy money when they could earn so much by simply marrying into women's families. She also replied a men saying that she didn't understand why there would be women who would marry into some men's family without any materialistic compensation. Those men started to delete their comments and change usernames when women started keeping screenshots and screen recordings of the post, and those along with the OP went viral on almost every Chinese platform. Some women started to realize the institution of marriage can never be nice and equal to the two sexes: the sex who have the ability to reproduce are the sex disparaged and suppressed, the sex get driven out of their families to sell out their bodies for a roof to sleep under, and finally their names, identities and existence erased in this process, while the sex who aren't blessed with the power of reproduction receive all the resources of their families, get to keep their names and steal away the reproductive labor of others.<br />
<br />
And it ends here. A couple of hours ago, every key word and hashtag related to that post was removed after 2 days of on-and-off shadowbanning of the OP. The OP user's account nuked after men's report barrage. Rednote, as well as every other Chinese social media platform would give up on their money maker only to make way for the patriarchy after the post received 2 million likes, highest ever record of the already nationwide popular app. Now only a few posts apparently written by men remained, preaching apparently unfair "equal" marriages, pretending they're not the beneficiaries of the long-standing institution.<br />
<br />
Update: OP's new account also got nuked. Some users of Rednote tried to change their usernames into the now nuked OP's original one, but to no avail: they found out that even her original username is now censored.<br />
<br />
Another update: I'm quite curious now if there has been any public discussion like this in other countries, as this really is a "first" in our culture. Or are there any Tiktok/Instagram influencers willing to carry out this "experiment" in their culture?</blockquote>
<br />
Xiao Hong Shu =  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meowqueen.png" alt=":meowqueen:" title=":meowqueen:" class="smilie smilie_34" /> <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meowqueen.png" alt=":meowqueen:" title=":meowqueen:" class="smilie smilie_34" /> <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meowqueen.png" alt=":meowqueen:" title=":meowqueen:" class="smilie smilie_34" /> <br />
<br />
At a time when it feels like the women's movement has been placed on the back foot everywhere of late, it refreshed me to read this exciting story.  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meow_adorable.png" alt=":meowdorable:" title=":meowdorable:" class="smilie smilie_10" /> Our Chinese radical sisters have broken through to the cultural mainstream enough that they have to be silenced!]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Ship 90% of Men to Mars?]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1807</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2025 06:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=478">Impress Polly</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1807</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[As many of you know, I'm for matriarchy. I'm also open to ideas concerning how to achieve it. In this connection, <a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@ace.organic/video/7582250991777598750" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">ace.organic has recently offered up a brilliant plan over on TikTok</a>: Since we'll soon be able to support life on planet Mars (at least according to Elon Musk, this should be possible by 2031), let's ship the most inferior 90% of men to Mars at that time! <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/psycholaugh.png" alt=":psycholaugh:" title=":psycholaugh:" class="smilie smilie_31" /> In the interim between now and then, we can decide on what traits we consider most desirable for the remaining 10% of men to have -- what we want going into the gene pool in the future -- and select them with competitions of various kinds of something.  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meow-popcorn.gif" alt=":popcorn:" title=":popcorn:" class="smilie smilie_24" /><br />
<br />
Nope, prolly not the most realistic solution (there are no especially realistic solutions to our dilemma as a sex, frankly; I'm just desperate), but hey, it's one that should theoretically at least should be possible in the near future and it's kind of an hilarious suggestion, so thought I'd share it. Let's take a vote. Ship most men off to Mars?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[As many of you know, I'm for matriarchy. I'm also open to ideas concerning how to achieve it. In this connection, <a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@ace.organic/video/7582250991777598750" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">ace.organic has recently offered up a brilliant plan over on TikTok</a>: Since we'll soon be able to support life on planet Mars (at least according to Elon Musk, this should be possible by 2031), let's ship the most inferior 90% of men to Mars at that time! <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/psycholaugh.png" alt=":psycholaugh:" title=":psycholaugh:" class="smilie smilie_31" /> In the interim between now and then, we can decide on what traits we consider most desirable for the remaining 10% of men to have -- what we want going into the gene pool in the future -- and select them with competitions of various kinds of something.  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meow-popcorn.gif" alt=":popcorn:" title=":popcorn:" class="smilie smilie_24" /><br />
<br />
Nope, prolly not the most realistic solution (there are no especially realistic solutions to our dilemma as a sex, frankly; I'm just desperate), but hey, it's one that should theoretically at least should be possible in the near future and it's kind of an hilarious suggestion, so thought I'd share it. Let's take a vote. Ship most men off to Mars?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Moids Prefer Stupid Women]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1633</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2025 03:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=478">Impress Polly</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1633</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/more-women-choose-single-married/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">54% of single men in the U.S. right now are looking for a partner, but only 34% of American single women are</a>. A growing number of women today are <a href="https://www.npr.org/2025/03/28/1241388989/men-women-marriage-rates-decline" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">finding that they are happier single</a>. Men, tending to have fewer friends and other social connections, not so much. Men need you more than you need them, in other words. <a href="https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/unmarried-women-live-longer-happier-survey" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">Marriage tends to add years to a man's life, but reduces a woman's</a>. That's in no small part because men fail to prioritize friendships the way women do and instead lean on women to solve all their problems. A woman, especially today, is expected to be her man's unpaid therapist, in addition to other things. Being here on Cloven Hooves, you probably knew all of this, but did you also know that intelligence makes you unattractive to men?<br />
<br />
This is <a href="https://saidit.net/s/BlackPillFeminism/comments/7j7a/smart_women_alienate_everyone_and_they_are_not/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">something I found years ago back on the Black Pill Feminism sub on Said It</a>. <br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>In the study a high IQ hampered a woman's chance of getting married, with a 40 per cent drop in marital prospects for every 16-point rise. The opposite was true for their male class-mates, whose equivalent chance of being married rose by 35 per cent for a 16-point rise in IQ. <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jan/23/gender.comment" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jan/23/gender.comment</a> </blockquote>
<br />
In other words, women prefer smart men but men prefer dumb women. Consider this evidence that you, presumably female separatist woman reading this post here in the Female Separtism subforum,  are in fact smarter than most women. And will be wiser to stay single anyway (or embrace your lesbian side). It's statistically better for your health and happiness. <a href="https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/02/a-survey-found-that-lesbians-give-women-way-more-orgasms-than-men-wonder-why.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">Hell, sapphic relationships are even better for your sex life as a woman for that matter!</a> <br />
<br />
What exactly <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">is</span> the reason for putting up with moids again? The case against even bothering with them seems completely overwhelming to me, seriously.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/more-women-choose-single-married/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">54% of single men in the U.S. right now are looking for a partner, but only 34% of American single women are</a>. A growing number of women today are <a href="https://www.npr.org/2025/03/28/1241388989/men-women-marriage-rates-decline" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">finding that they are happier single</a>. Men, tending to have fewer friends and other social connections, not so much. Men need you more than you need them, in other words. <a href="https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/unmarried-women-live-longer-happier-survey" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">Marriage tends to add years to a man's life, but reduces a woman's</a>. That's in no small part because men fail to prioritize friendships the way women do and instead lean on women to solve all their problems. A woman, especially today, is expected to be her man's unpaid therapist, in addition to other things. Being here on Cloven Hooves, you probably knew all of this, but did you also know that intelligence makes you unattractive to men?<br />
<br />
This is <a href="https://saidit.net/s/BlackPillFeminism/comments/7j7a/smart_women_alienate_everyone_and_they_are_not/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">something I found years ago back on the Black Pill Feminism sub on Said It</a>. <br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>In the study a high IQ hampered a woman's chance of getting married, with a 40 per cent drop in marital prospects for every 16-point rise. The opposite was true for their male class-mates, whose equivalent chance of being married rose by 35 per cent for a 16-point rise in IQ. <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jan/23/gender.comment" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jan/23/gender.comment</a> </blockquote>
<br />
In other words, women prefer smart men but men prefer dumb women. Consider this evidence that you, presumably female separatist woman reading this post here in the Female Separtism subforum,  are in fact smarter than most women. And will be wiser to stay single anyway (or embrace your lesbian side). It's statistically better for your health and happiness. <a href="https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/02/a-survey-found-that-lesbians-give-women-way-more-orgasms-than-men-wonder-why.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">Hell, sapphic relationships are even better for your sex life as a woman for that matter!</a> <br />
<br />
What exactly <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">is</span> the reason for putting up with moids again? The case against even bothering with them seems completely overwhelming to me, seriously.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Is shipping good for separatism?]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1584</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2025 15:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=79">YesYourNigel</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1584</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Bit of a clickbaity title, but I mean all the erotica, fanfics, fanart, shipping stuff, otome games, AI boyfriends etc. made by and for women, featuring men.<br />
<br />
I feel like this has the potential to provide an excellent outlet for straight women to safely scratch their relationship itch without hitching themselves to a man. At the same time, I wonder how much this just fuels further romanticisation of toxic relationships, red flags and, for gay male shipping, heavy androcentrism and phallocentrism or even further normalisation of abusive straight dynamics by projecting them even onto gay men (the infamous seme-uke dynamics, also anything omegaverse.). Is all this just a temporary respite until the woman finds a boyfriend and in reality does nothing to redirect women away from toxic straight norms?<br />
<br />
There's a lot of feel-good mushy shipping that doesn't sexualise the worst most abusive excesses of heterosexuality. I feel like the women who ship interesting character dynamics for an endorphin rush fare better than those who consume self-insert x "toxic man with heart of gold" dynamics, because there isn't a 1 to 1 projection from real life patriarchal dynamics that makes you feel like you can eventually engage in it yourself. A lot of those women in the "interesting dynamics" shipper category tend to, in fact, be fairly uninterested in irl dating because of how much it pales in comparison to healthy non-abusive fictional relationships, which I think is great - anything that keeps women safe and far from men is good.<br />
<br />
I also think straight women developing sky-high standards for men based on all this media is excellent, but that is predicated on the men in this media not being the romanticised toxic shits like they are in, for example, boddice-ripper novels. I suppose if the goal is the same (women not dating men and as such enjoying the benefits of not having a dehumanising, entitled, self-absorbed burden in their life at best, and a rapist/abuser/murderer at worst) one might argue it doesn't matter, but I would want women to consume media that makes them internalise preferences for male partners who are empathetic, invested in female well-being and have radically feminist leanings, and simply not even consider any man who doesn't fit that category to a T. While the "jerk with a heart of gold" is similarly unrealistic, the romanticised toxicity is far too easy to exploit by real life messaging and pressures. Aggressive, possessive men are not secretly kind and considerate of women, even if they temporarily pretend to be, and women should push themselves to fantasise about actually healthy dynamics instead of what the patriarchy is already trying to feed them.<br />
<br />
I guess another downside is the chronically online nature of it. I would be worried about this addiction to easy endorphins keeping women from getting real shit done, but that's more of a general issue with modern online generations and might just be worth being managed in comparison to the alternative of women endangering themselves by dating men.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Bit of a clickbaity title, but I mean all the erotica, fanfics, fanart, shipping stuff, otome games, AI boyfriends etc. made by and for women, featuring men.<br />
<br />
I feel like this has the potential to provide an excellent outlet for straight women to safely scratch their relationship itch without hitching themselves to a man. At the same time, I wonder how much this just fuels further romanticisation of toxic relationships, red flags and, for gay male shipping, heavy androcentrism and phallocentrism or even further normalisation of abusive straight dynamics by projecting them even onto gay men (the infamous seme-uke dynamics, also anything omegaverse.). Is all this just a temporary respite until the woman finds a boyfriend and in reality does nothing to redirect women away from toxic straight norms?<br />
<br />
There's a lot of feel-good mushy shipping that doesn't sexualise the worst most abusive excesses of heterosexuality. I feel like the women who ship interesting character dynamics for an endorphin rush fare better than those who consume self-insert x "toxic man with heart of gold" dynamics, because there isn't a 1 to 1 projection from real life patriarchal dynamics that makes you feel like you can eventually engage in it yourself. A lot of those women in the "interesting dynamics" shipper category tend to, in fact, be fairly uninterested in irl dating because of how much it pales in comparison to healthy non-abusive fictional relationships, which I think is great - anything that keeps women safe and far from men is good.<br />
<br />
I also think straight women developing sky-high standards for men based on all this media is excellent, but that is predicated on the men in this media not being the romanticised toxic shits like they are in, for example, boddice-ripper novels. I suppose if the goal is the same (women not dating men and as such enjoying the benefits of not having a dehumanising, entitled, self-absorbed burden in their life at best, and a rapist/abuser/murderer at worst) one might argue it doesn't matter, but I would want women to consume media that makes them internalise preferences for male partners who are empathetic, invested in female well-being and have radically feminist leanings, and simply not even consider any man who doesn't fit that category to a T. While the "jerk with a heart of gold" is similarly unrealistic, the romanticised toxicity is far too easy to exploit by real life messaging and pressures. Aggressive, possessive men are not secretly kind and considerate of women, even if they temporarily pretend to be, and women should push themselves to fantasise about actually healthy dynamics instead of what the patriarchy is already trying to feed them.<br />
<br />
I guess another downside is the chronically online nature of it. I would be worried about this addiction to easy endorphins keeping women from getting real shit done, but that's more of a general issue with modern online generations and might just be worth being managed in comparison to the alternative of women endangering themselves by dating men.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Ways Coeducation Hurts Girls]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1533</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2025 03:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=478">Impress Polly</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1533</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Saw <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/4bmovement/comments/1mrh9ci/coeducation_hurts_girls_why_we_need_singlesex/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">this</a> on the 4B sub and thought I'd share. It's was written by a woman by the screen name catastrophejr (which...yes).<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">coeducation hurts girls: why we need single-sex public schools in Western countries</span> <br />
<br />
argument in title. in my (Western) country, you cannot access an all-girls education unless you shell out &#36;&#36;&#36;&#36; for a private, usually religious school. this ensures that young girls of limited means are forced into coed public schools filled with boys who are violent, pornsick, and exhibiting extremist misogyny at younger and younger ages thanks to influencers like Andrew Tate.<br />
<br />
I fundamentally disagree with coeducation. Girls cannot thrive in coed schools. Girls rarely thrive with male teachers. Say what you will about the Muslim world and its awful attitude toward women, but there are more female engineers and mathematicians coming out of countries like Egypt, Jordan and the Emirates than in more gender-equal regions like Europe, North America and Latin America. Why? Because in the Muslim world all schools are single-sex and teachers usually match the sex of the students, so little girls learn math and science from female teachers. Little girls have women STEM role models and learn STEM in all-female environments You can read about more about this phenomenon <a href="https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/News/the-stem-paradox-why-are-muslimmajority-countries-producing-so-many-female-engineers" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">here</a>, "The STEM Paradox: Why are Muslim-Majority Countries Producing So Many Female Engineers?"<br />
<br />
Meanwhile in the West, I went to a coed STEM magnet public school where all the engineering and math teachers were male and all the humanities and soft science teachers were female. The result? Boys bullied the girls harshly in STEM classes. A boy told me in a sixth grade compsci class that "computers are for boys" and the emotionally cold male teacher just laughed when I complained. My only safe haven was English/history class where I had kind women as teachers. As a result, my natural love for science was crushed and I ended up going into the humanities because I associated math and science classes with being bullied by boys. This is a systemic phenomenon in the West; I know many girls and women who pursued humanities despite being good at math and science because they felt that math was "for boys".<br />
<br />
Other issues with coed schools:<br />
<br /><ul class="mycode_list"><li>School shootings are a big problem in my country. It's gender unequal: <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">boys are doing the killing, girls are doing the dying.</span> Almost no school shooting has ever been perpetrated by a girl or woman, but women and girls are always included in the victims. <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">If we made public schools single-sex tomorrow, I believe we would see a 50% decrease in school shootings.</span> Why don't we care enough about our daughters' safety to make this happen??<br />
<br />
</li>
<li>Sexual harassment and misogynistic bullying. Depending on my age and location, I was sexualized by some male peers while others told me I was ugly and should kill myself because of my ugly face. Almost all of my school bullies were male; girls rarely even insulted me while boys made sport of calling me an ugly b*tch, flat-chested, denigrating my facial features, saying my nose was too big etc... A boy threw a chair at my face once just because he thought I was ugly and wanted to hurt me. So much for "Mean Girls": my problem was never mean girls, it was cruel and violent boys. I'm sure others can relate.<br />
<br />
</li>
</ul>
I haven't seen this topic discussed enough in 4B spaces, but I truly believe we must help the next generation of girls by campaigning for single-sex public education in the West. It's unfair that only rich girls can enjoy the safe haven of all girls schools. Coeducation hurts girls. </blockquote>
<br />
To add a thought of my own, a further value-added to specifically making <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">public</span> education single-sex would be that girls also wouldn't have to be subjected to lessons in faiths that preach male worship in order to gain these benefits (unless they live in like the U.S. states of Texas or Louisiana or something where Christianity is now taught in public schools too by law). <br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Full disclosure:</span> I was once good at math until it started involving letters. My math teachers/professors from high school on were consistently male and never did seem too helpful so much as condescending. I wound up requiring professional tutoring just to narrowly pass Algebra 2. By contrast, I wound up faring much better in English and history myself, not unlike Catastrophe Jr., and social sciences. My teachers/professors for those subjects were nearly always female. When I read a post like the above, I can't help wondering how things might've worked out differently for me in a female-only schooling environment. After all, I am kind of a technically-minded nerd who enjoys things like making lists, organizing things, and reading lots of astronomy, paleontology, and archeology type articles, and other fairly left-brain-heavy sorts of hobbies, interests, and quirks, so it seems like I actually should've been a more natural match for a STEM field of study than I wound up being. Who is to say?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Saw <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/4bmovement/comments/1mrh9ci/coeducation_hurts_girls_why_we_need_singlesex/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">this</a> on the 4B sub and thought I'd share. It's was written by a woman by the screen name catastrophejr (which...yes).<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">coeducation hurts girls: why we need single-sex public schools in Western countries</span> <br />
<br />
argument in title. in my (Western) country, you cannot access an all-girls education unless you shell out &#36;&#36;&#36;&#36; for a private, usually religious school. this ensures that young girls of limited means are forced into coed public schools filled with boys who are violent, pornsick, and exhibiting extremist misogyny at younger and younger ages thanks to influencers like Andrew Tate.<br />
<br />
I fundamentally disagree with coeducation. Girls cannot thrive in coed schools. Girls rarely thrive with male teachers. Say what you will about the Muslim world and its awful attitude toward women, but there are more female engineers and mathematicians coming out of countries like Egypt, Jordan and the Emirates than in more gender-equal regions like Europe, North America and Latin America. Why? Because in the Muslim world all schools are single-sex and teachers usually match the sex of the students, so little girls learn math and science from female teachers. Little girls have women STEM role models and learn STEM in all-female environments You can read about more about this phenomenon <a href="https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/News/the-stem-paradox-why-are-muslimmajority-countries-producing-so-many-female-engineers" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">here</a>, "The STEM Paradox: Why are Muslim-Majority Countries Producing So Many Female Engineers?"<br />
<br />
Meanwhile in the West, I went to a coed STEM magnet public school where all the engineering and math teachers were male and all the humanities and soft science teachers were female. The result? Boys bullied the girls harshly in STEM classes. A boy told me in a sixth grade compsci class that "computers are for boys" and the emotionally cold male teacher just laughed when I complained. My only safe haven was English/history class where I had kind women as teachers. As a result, my natural love for science was crushed and I ended up going into the humanities because I associated math and science classes with being bullied by boys. This is a systemic phenomenon in the West; I know many girls and women who pursued humanities despite being good at math and science because they felt that math was "for boys".<br />
<br />
Other issues with coed schools:<br />
<br /><ul class="mycode_list"><li>School shootings are a big problem in my country. It's gender unequal: <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">boys are doing the killing, girls are doing the dying.</span> Almost no school shooting has ever been perpetrated by a girl or woman, but women and girls are always included in the victims. <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">If we made public schools single-sex tomorrow, I believe we would see a 50% decrease in school shootings.</span> Why don't we care enough about our daughters' safety to make this happen??<br />
<br />
</li>
<li>Sexual harassment and misogynistic bullying. Depending on my age and location, I was sexualized by some male peers while others told me I was ugly and should kill myself because of my ugly face. Almost all of my school bullies were male; girls rarely even insulted me while boys made sport of calling me an ugly b*tch, flat-chested, denigrating my facial features, saying my nose was too big etc... A boy threw a chair at my face once just because he thought I was ugly and wanted to hurt me. So much for "Mean Girls": my problem was never mean girls, it was cruel and violent boys. I'm sure others can relate.<br />
<br />
</li>
</ul>
I haven't seen this topic discussed enough in 4B spaces, but I truly believe we must help the next generation of girls by campaigning for single-sex public education in the West. It's unfair that only rich girls can enjoy the safe haven of all girls schools. Coeducation hurts girls. </blockquote>
<br />
To add a thought of my own, a further value-added to specifically making <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">public</span> education single-sex would be that girls also wouldn't have to be subjected to lessons in faiths that preach male worship in order to gain these benefits (unless they live in like the U.S. states of Texas or Louisiana or something where Christianity is now taught in public schools too by law). <br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Full disclosure:</span> I was once good at math until it started involving letters. My math teachers/professors from high school on were consistently male and never did seem too helpful so much as condescending. I wound up requiring professional tutoring just to narrowly pass Algebra 2. By contrast, I wound up faring much better in English and history myself, not unlike Catastrophe Jr., and social sciences. My teachers/professors for those subjects were nearly always female. When I read a post like the above, I can't help wondering how things might've worked out differently for me in a female-only schooling environment. After all, I am kind of a technically-minded nerd who enjoys things like making lists, organizing things, and reading lots of astronomy, paleontology, and archeology type articles, and other fairly left-brain-heavy sorts of hobbies, interests, and quirks, so it seems like I actually should've been a more natural match for a STEM field of study than I wound up being. Who is to say?]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Women-only communities flourish in China]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1484</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2025 19:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=472">Magpie</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1484</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2025/08/18/asia-pacific/society/china-women-only-communities/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2025/08/18/asia-pacific/society/china-women-only-communities/</a><br />
<a href="https://archive.ph/voLWY" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://archive.ph/voLWY</a><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>Lilith Jiang, the founder of the all-women cultural space "Half the Sky" in Beijing, said these community-oriented facilities fill a void.<br />
<br />
"Men have plenty of opportunities to socialise, while drinking or while exercising," she said.<br />
<br />
"Women don't have that."<br />
<br />
Down the line, she said non-traditional structures could offer an alternative for single women worried about aging alone.<br />
<br />
"Women are constantly told: 'If you don't get married, what will become of you when you get older?'" said Jiang.<br />
<br />
"But long-term, all-female shared co-living spaces where women can grow old together could be a solution."</blockquote>
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2025/08/18/asia-pacific/society/china-women-only-communities/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2025/08/18/asia-pacific/society/china-women-only-communities/</a><br />
<a href="https://archive.ph/voLWY" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://archive.ph/voLWY</a><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>Lilith Jiang, the founder of the all-women cultural space "Half the Sky" in Beijing, said these community-oriented facilities fill a void.<br />
<br />
"Men have plenty of opportunities to socialise, while drinking or while exercising," she said.<br />
<br />
"Women don't have that."<br />
<br />
Down the line, she said non-traditional structures could offer an alternative for single women worried about aging alone.<br />
<br />
"Women are constantly told: 'If you don't get married, what will become of you when you get older?'" said Jiang.<br />
<br />
"But long-term, all-female shared co-living spaces where women can grow old together could be a solution."</blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Sex-Selective IVF: A Tentative Idea About How Things Could Improve For Women...]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1065</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2025 06:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=350">Irinka8347</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1065</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Sorry, please delete if this isn't allowed! I've noticed that the other posts in this forum had links, but this is a text post about an idea I've been nurturing after hearing about 4B. <br />
<br />
This is something that I've only seen a couple of times in all the years I've been involved with feminism. I think it might be beyond the reaches of liberal feminist imagination, but... Given the progress of reproductive technology in recent decades, do you think that one day, it might be plausible for women to alter the sex ratio of the world in our favor? We could accomplish this with sex-selective IVF (which is illegal in some countries, but not the US), or sex-selective abortion (not my choice due to the hormonal changes that occur just within early pregnancy alone, plus some women's reservations about their own abortions). There is, of course, a lot of talk about artificial wombs, but unlike that, sex-selective IVF has less chance to backfire on women. I think we may be in a window of time to act, before technology increases to the point that men can try to control reproduction by themselves, or the current state of affairs impedes women's choices too much (in the most pessimistic scenario). <br />
<br />
As I see it, there may be a variety of factors that could contribute to people choosing IVF for daughters. I think for any movement to work, there should be some sort of external pressure, plus wide appeal. So hopefully that comes with the following points... (It would be nice if we could use incentives like money to discourage having sons and encourage having daughters, but I suppose I'm getting ahead of myself, haha.) <br />
<br /><ul class="mycode_list"><li>If people are already considering IVF, it may be easier to overcome one of the greatest hurdles towards this solution: cost. Only those who can afford IVF would choose this (and probably not those with male partners, if I had to guess?), so any moral or practical objections towards IVF itself would already be overridden. I believe IVF is also already increasing in frequency, since fertility rates are going down and the number of single mothers by choice (SMBC) are going up. That is, there is a general audience for IVF; the step towards using IVF to select for girls would be a smaller one than first trying to convince an audience to go for IVF, then sex-selecting. <br />
</li>
<li>Women are growing increasingly aware of the extent of male violence with the emergence of the Internet. We're able to access statistics on male violence towards women and girls, and there are high-profile cases of male violence that likely would have been hushed up in the past (e.g. Gisele Pelicot's case, which was an example of how even wives are not protected from other men by their husbands. A cornerstone of patriarchal marriage). <br />
</li>
<li>I specifically mention sex-selective IVF as opposed to sex-selective abortion because there are many women who would be against aborting their own fetus, even if they are legally pro-choice. If you bring up anything about sex selection to such women, they may picture strangling male infants in their own cribs, or just find the idea of "killing" boys off-putting. But with IVF, this consideration vanishes. Literally no boys are "killed". I may not agree with these women, but I believe that the idea of sex-selective IVF needs to appeal to women from all walks of life to work, as women don't seem to have the solidarity that men do. Some women may be against abortion. Some women may even prefer a daughter for reasons outside of altering the human sex ratio. But the important part is that it happens to begin with, and then we can deal with any major cultural changes downstream. <br />
</li>
</ul>
Here are some of the stipulations I've thought of:<br /><ul class="mycode_list"><li>IVF is incredibly expensive as of right now. I think the situation may improve as technology and demand progress further, kind of like how computers got less expensive, etc. There are medical procedures which never really came down in price, but I believe that the demand has to do with it. Because of the aforementioned fertility rate drops and the fact that more people want IVF for other reasons, I think the problem of cost may be surmountable. <br />
</li>
<li>There are obviously people who are against sex selection on principle. They may point to countries like China or India, where an overabundance of men exist and women are trafficked as brides. I think this would not be a problem with women... There is no longstanding tradition of men being trafficked for such purposes, for one. And the threat of crime from millions of restless, unpaired individuals is, I would think, diminished if those individuals are female versus male. I mean, I myself am agnostic to the causes of male violence. Genetic, environmental, both... Not really my concern, at this point. My main contention is that it exists, and we need to do something about it. We can observe that men are more violent than women in pretty much every arena of life (control for the number of men involved, of course), so why would that change all of a sudden with an increase in the proportion of women? People would have to provide a mechanism for this, or otherwise you could point out how they're engaging in wild speculation for who knows what reason...<br />
<br />
Even if women became more violent as a result of becoming a significant majority, however, you can always ask why the other person has a problem with decreasing the incidence of crimes like PIV rape. Of course, there are women who do commit heinous crimes, and men who don't. But there's not much of a reason to purposefully bring a person with a natural weapon into the world, is there? Anything good a man has done (and of course men have created many useful things, can be wonderful people (up for debate, I suppose)), a woman can also do, and without incurring the risk of gang rape, war rape, and other crimes that are more easily committed with a penis. Someone arguing against the idea of selecting for a girl would have to defend leaving it up to chance, or actively choosing a child that just comes with more downsides than a child of the female sex, with the same upsides at best. There's no moral justification in letting "nature" or random chance decide when humans can make choices that will improve our situation as a species; that's just a coward's choice. <br />
</li>
</ul><ul class="mycode_list"><li>If people are worried that the mere existence of this choice will destabilize a society, you can always point them to Iceland. Genetic screening hasn't turned that country into a fire and brimstone pit, and I doubt taking out a chunk of the male proportion would actually harm anything. So you would see more women than men on a daily basis. Maybe, depending on the optimal proportion, you would barely see any male people anymore. But frankly, so what? Is it really that important that 50% of the population has a penis? It goes back to what I said earlier about penises... They're neutral at best and a liability at worst. If you replaced many of the men in this world with a female version of themselves, I'm pretty sure the world would become safer, at the very least. </li>
</ul><ul class="mycode_list"><li>Sex selection may pose a threat to the population size of humans. I think because of reproductive dynamics, it is not necessary to have as many men around as some people might think. (Also, see what happens after major wars.) Since sex selection would likely be an incremental process as more and more women get on board, the proportion of men could possibly be "titrated" to prevent pure logistical issues regarding reproduction and the partnering of heterosexual women. The existence of sperm banks already shows that only a small number of men are required for women to keep having children at a feasible level. <br />
As for genetic diversity, sperm samples could be retrieved from a large number of men... I'm sure there would be many willing to donate if IVF became more popular and visible. Just because some men might be more immediately popular as donors doesn't mean that we couldn't go into gene libraries if, say, a new pathogen came about... Different women might prefer different traits, anyway, so I don't think the population would be that homogenous. Education can be provided on the perils of low genetic diversity. <br />
</li>
</ul>
I do want to acknowledge that this is, of course, a far-sighted idea. IVF is a fledgling industry, and many women actively support patriarchy and would not say no to gestating a male fetus. But even if this is implemented on a tiny scale, I think it's better than nothing. Even one girl who's born knowing that men aren't necessary for life is a step towards progress. The sex ratio need not swing enormously for this to help in some way, just like 4B (which this was inspired by) need not be adopted by every woman to have brought good into this world. In fact, I am banking on the idea that there will be women who choose to give birth to sons. That's how human reproduction works at this time, unfortunately... We do need a decent supply of sperm. Maybe if we get to a stage where an XY zygote can be induced into reproductive tissue differentiation immediately, an absolutist approach towards the male population might work. Or if we can fertilize an egg with another egg, which I believe has been done in mice; possibly in other animals as well. <br />
<br />
Alternatively, we could just keep on our current path, and try to teach boys to respect women and girls. Perhaps our foremothers just did it the wrong way, and that's why boys and men have stagnated if not increased in their misogyny. (RIP to those women, but we're different?) We don't have to control our reproduction, either; we can just incubate whatever men put into us like we have for the past thousands, if not millions of years. (I, personally, like the idea of having control over what comes out of my uterus, even if people think it's morally wrong to be an active participant in your own pregnancy. Because in patriarchy, women are just vessels carrying what nature and men want them to carry...) Leave the possibility of giving birth to boys open, or else! (Or else what? Or else the world will collapse like Iceland has, obviously.) <br />
<br />
And this is more of a side note, but I genuinely think this is one of the more peaceful options for ending patriarchy, kind of like 4B. It's not done with sadism towards men (because what men?), but an understanding that there are simply more upsides to having daughters than sons for everyone involved, that's all. A cost-benefit analysis, because people tend to do what's most beneficial to them in the end. Women who don't consider themselves "man-haters" might be swayed into just picking XX (or non-SRY in general), if they can't justify leaving it up to luck. And no men would suffer from this unless they make it their own problem. The proportion of men goes down each generation, but nobody needs to fight anyone about it. If someone tries to restrict women from sex-selection, then 4B is the way. I'd personally rather not have a son no matter what (whatever the circumstances), so that's a conviction I'll carry for myself that will ensure safety for women and girls of the future. <br />
<br />
I think this sort of peaceful idea is quite compatible with feminism's history, and also shows the power of women to shape humanity, a power that many seem to forget. I think mothers are disrespected in this world; this might help remind people that motherhood is a favor to humanity. Make them not take women's sacrifices for granted, kind of like 4B. And it also works (for me, at least) as a failsafe, knowing that there's always a last resort should this whole male education thing that libfems are doubling on not work. There's still a chartable path towards the abolishment of patriarchy, no matter how unusual...<br />
<br />
So anyways, what do you all think? I think a takeaway here is that just because we live in a world where male violence is normalized, doesn't mean it needs to be that way. All it would require is a little mindful family planning. Any caveats or questions are welcome!  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meow_adorable.png" alt=":meowdorable:" title=":meowdorable:" class="smilie smilie_10" /> .]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Sorry, please delete if this isn't allowed! I've noticed that the other posts in this forum had links, but this is a text post about an idea I've been nurturing after hearing about 4B. <br />
<br />
This is something that I've only seen a couple of times in all the years I've been involved with feminism. I think it might be beyond the reaches of liberal feminist imagination, but... Given the progress of reproductive technology in recent decades, do you think that one day, it might be plausible for women to alter the sex ratio of the world in our favor? We could accomplish this with sex-selective IVF (which is illegal in some countries, but not the US), or sex-selective abortion (not my choice due to the hormonal changes that occur just within early pregnancy alone, plus some women's reservations about their own abortions). There is, of course, a lot of talk about artificial wombs, but unlike that, sex-selective IVF has less chance to backfire on women. I think we may be in a window of time to act, before technology increases to the point that men can try to control reproduction by themselves, or the current state of affairs impedes women's choices too much (in the most pessimistic scenario). <br />
<br />
As I see it, there may be a variety of factors that could contribute to people choosing IVF for daughters. I think for any movement to work, there should be some sort of external pressure, plus wide appeal. So hopefully that comes with the following points... (It would be nice if we could use incentives like money to discourage having sons and encourage having daughters, but I suppose I'm getting ahead of myself, haha.) <br />
<br /><ul class="mycode_list"><li>If people are already considering IVF, it may be easier to overcome one of the greatest hurdles towards this solution: cost. Only those who can afford IVF would choose this (and probably not those with male partners, if I had to guess?), so any moral or practical objections towards IVF itself would already be overridden. I believe IVF is also already increasing in frequency, since fertility rates are going down and the number of single mothers by choice (SMBC) are going up. That is, there is a general audience for IVF; the step towards using IVF to select for girls would be a smaller one than first trying to convince an audience to go for IVF, then sex-selecting. <br />
</li>
<li>Women are growing increasingly aware of the extent of male violence with the emergence of the Internet. We're able to access statistics on male violence towards women and girls, and there are high-profile cases of male violence that likely would have been hushed up in the past (e.g. Gisele Pelicot's case, which was an example of how even wives are not protected from other men by their husbands. A cornerstone of patriarchal marriage). <br />
</li>
<li>I specifically mention sex-selective IVF as opposed to sex-selective abortion because there are many women who would be against aborting their own fetus, even if they are legally pro-choice. If you bring up anything about sex selection to such women, they may picture strangling male infants in their own cribs, or just find the idea of "killing" boys off-putting. But with IVF, this consideration vanishes. Literally no boys are "killed". I may not agree with these women, but I believe that the idea of sex-selective IVF needs to appeal to women from all walks of life to work, as women don't seem to have the solidarity that men do. Some women may be against abortion. Some women may even prefer a daughter for reasons outside of altering the human sex ratio. But the important part is that it happens to begin with, and then we can deal with any major cultural changes downstream. <br />
</li>
</ul>
Here are some of the stipulations I've thought of:<br /><ul class="mycode_list"><li>IVF is incredibly expensive as of right now. I think the situation may improve as technology and demand progress further, kind of like how computers got less expensive, etc. There are medical procedures which never really came down in price, but I believe that the demand has to do with it. Because of the aforementioned fertility rate drops and the fact that more people want IVF for other reasons, I think the problem of cost may be surmountable. <br />
</li>
<li>There are obviously people who are against sex selection on principle. They may point to countries like China or India, where an overabundance of men exist and women are trafficked as brides. I think this would not be a problem with women... There is no longstanding tradition of men being trafficked for such purposes, for one. And the threat of crime from millions of restless, unpaired individuals is, I would think, diminished if those individuals are female versus male. I mean, I myself am agnostic to the causes of male violence. Genetic, environmental, both... Not really my concern, at this point. My main contention is that it exists, and we need to do something about it. We can observe that men are more violent than women in pretty much every arena of life (control for the number of men involved, of course), so why would that change all of a sudden with an increase in the proportion of women? People would have to provide a mechanism for this, or otherwise you could point out how they're engaging in wild speculation for who knows what reason...<br />
<br />
Even if women became more violent as a result of becoming a significant majority, however, you can always ask why the other person has a problem with decreasing the incidence of crimes like PIV rape. Of course, there are women who do commit heinous crimes, and men who don't. But there's not much of a reason to purposefully bring a person with a natural weapon into the world, is there? Anything good a man has done (and of course men have created many useful things, can be wonderful people (up for debate, I suppose)), a woman can also do, and without incurring the risk of gang rape, war rape, and other crimes that are more easily committed with a penis. Someone arguing against the idea of selecting for a girl would have to defend leaving it up to chance, or actively choosing a child that just comes with more downsides than a child of the female sex, with the same upsides at best. There's no moral justification in letting "nature" or random chance decide when humans can make choices that will improve our situation as a species; that's just a coward's choice. <br />
</li>
</ul><ul class="mycode_list"><li>If people are worried that the mere existence of this choice will destabilize a society, you can always point them to Iceland. Genetic screening hasn't turned that country into a fire and brimstone pit, and I doubt taking out a chunk of the male proportion would actually harm anything. So you would see more women than men on a daily basis. Maybe, depending on the optimal proportion, you would barely see any male people anymore. But frankly, so what? Is it really that important that 50% of the population has a penis? It goes back to what I said earlier about penises... They're neutral at best and a liability at worst. If you replaced many of the men in this world with a female version of themselves, I'm pretty sure the world would become safer, at the very least. </li>
</ul><ul class="mycode_list"><li>Sex selection may pose a threat to the population size of humans. I think because of reproductive dynamics, it is not necessary to have as many men around as some people might think. (Also, see what happens after major wars.) Since sex selection would likely be an incremental process as more and more women get on board, the proportion of men could possibly be "titrated" to prevent pure logistical issues regarding reproduction and the partnering of heterosexual women. The existence of sperm banks already shows that only a small number of men are required for women to keep having children at a feasible level. <br />
As for genetic diversity, sperm samples could be retrieved from a large number of men... I'm sure there would be many willing to donate if IVF became more popular and visible. Just because some men might be more immediately popular as donors doesn't mean that we couldn't go into gene libraries if, say, a new pathogen came about... Different women might prefer different traits, anyway, so I don't think the population would be that homogenous. Education can be provided on the perils of low genetic diversity. <br />
</li>
</ul>
I do want to acknowledge that this is, of course, a far-sighted idea. IVF is a fledgling industry, and many women actively support patriarchy and would not say no to gestating a male fetus. But even if this is implemented on a tiny scale, I think it's better than nothing. Even one girl who's born knowing that men aren't necessary for life is a step towards progress. The sex ratio need not swing enormously for this to help in some way, just like 4B (which this was inspired by) need not be adopted by every woman to have brought good into this world. In fact, I am banking on the idea that there will be women who choose to give birth to sons. That's how human reproduction works at this time, unfortunately... We do need a decent supply of sperm. Maybe if we get to a stage where an XY zygote can be induced into reproductive tissue differentiation immediately, an absolutist approach towards the male population might work. Or if we can fertilize an egg with another egg, which I believe has been done in mice; possibly in other animals as well. <br />
<br />
Alternatively, we could just keep on our current path, and try to teach boys to respect women and girls. Perhaps our foremothers just did it the wrong way, and that's why boys and men have stagnated if not increased in their misogyny. (RIP to those women, but we're different?) We don't have to control our reproduction, either; we can just incubate whatever men put into us like we have for the past thousands, if not millions of years. (I, personally, like the idea of having control over what comes out of my uterus, even if people think it's morally wrong to be an active participant in your own pregnancy. Because in patriarchy, women are just vessels carrying what nature and men want them to carry...) Leave the possibility of giving birth to boys open, or else! (Or else what? Or else the world will collapse like Iceland has, obviously.) <br />
<br />
And this is more of a side note, but I genuinely think this is one of the more peaceful options for ending patriarchy, kind of like 4B. It's not done with sadism towards men (because what men?), but an understanding that there are simply more upsides to having daughters than sons for everyone involved, that's all. A cost-benefit analysis, because people tend to do what's most beneficial to them in the end. Women who don't consider themselves "man-haters" might be swayed into just picking XX (or non-SRY in general), if they can't justify leaving it up to luck. And no men would suffer from this unless they make it their own problem. The proportion of men goes down each generation, but nobody needs to fight anyone about it. If someone tries to restrict women from sex-selection, then 4B is the way. I'd personally rather not have a son no matter what (whatever the circumstances), so that's a conviction I'll carry for myself that will ensure safety for women and girls of the future. <br />
<br />
I think this sort of peaceful idea is quite compatible with feminism's history, and also shows the power of women to shape humanity, a power that many seem to forget. I think mothers are disrespected in this world; this might help remind people that motherhood is a favor to humanity. Make them not take women's sacrifices for granted, kind of like 4B. And it also works (for me, at least) as a failsafe, knowing that there's always a last resort should this whole male education thing that libfems are doubling on not work. There's still a chartable path towards the abolishment of patriarchy, no matter how unusual...<br />
<br />
So anyways, what do you all think? I think a takeaway here is that just because we live in a world where male violence is normalized, doesn't mean it needs to be that way. All it would require is a little mindful family planning. Any caveats or questions are welcome!  <img src="https://clovenhooves.org/images/smilies/meow_adorable.png" alt=":meowdorable:" title=":meowdorable:" class="smilie smilie_10" /> .]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[Where can I get help for creating a little "village" for women in GER or IS?]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1081</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2025 20:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=394">Hazard</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1081</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Hello, I am living (it's just surviving) in germany and want to make connections with other women who are disabled, poverty class and have radical feminist and separatist values. My dream was to create a little village with tiny houses for us with the goal to have a living place and care until we die. Location could be in germany or iceland imo.<br />
<br />
Sadly, I have zero connection outside of my mother and I am trapped in a very rural, rightwing environment. The people you can easly encounter are males and pickmes. I had very bad situations with social workers, nurses... they are fine how it works out for them and they are disgusted by my face and head. I always have this  ugly card and get mistreated by doctors, by lawyers, everyone. I am hated for looking like a "heshe" transman, lesbian. Some think I am drug addict, anorexic and other negative stuff. I have disabilities and hormonal issues and simply bad genetics. Most time of my life is now inside my room but maybe this year I lose welfare and I become homeless. <br />
<br />
I still hope to find at least one woman similar to me and we go away from this crap and live together somehwere outside of this. More in the forest. I found nobody who understands and many don't want to care because they see me as ugly and I am not able to make big steps in life with zero support. If my mother dies or can't function I am lost in this place, it's very sad and unfair.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Hello, I am living (it's just surviving) in germany and want to make connections with other women who are disabled, poverty class and have radical feminist and separatist values. My dream was to create a little village with tiny houses for us with the goal to have a living place and care until we die. Location could be in germany or iceland imo.<br />
<br />
Sadly, I have zero connection outside of my mother and I am trapped in a very rural, rightwing environment. The people you can easly encounter are males and pickmes. I had very bad situations with social workers, nurses... they are fine how it works out for them and they are disgusted by my face and head. I always have this  ugly card and get mistreated by doctors, by lawyers, everyone. I am hated for looking like a "heshe" transman, lesbian. Some think I am drug addict, anorexic and other negative stuff. I have disabilities and hormonal issues and simply bad genetics. Most time of my life is now inside my room but maybe this year I lose welfare and I become homeless. <br />
<br />
I still hope to find at least one woman similar to me and we go away from this crap and live together somehwere outside of this. More in the forest. I found nobody who understands and many don't want to care because they see me as ugly and I am not able to make big steps in life with zero support. If my mother dies or can't function I am lost in this place, it's very sad and unfair.]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[What South Korea’s ‘Queen of 4B’ Wants Americans to Know]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=465</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Dec 2024 17:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=147">Elsacat</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=465</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.thecut.com/article/4b-american-women-trump-advice.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.thecut.com/article/4b-american-women-trump-advice.html</a><br />
<br />
Not mentioned in the article but it's been on my mind: It seems like 4B is a little controversial in the West because of the "acquired lesbianism"/polilez aspect and what that means for lesbians who have spent their lives trying to get people to understand that lesbian isn't something you can identify into or out of - you just are, you're born that way. <br />
<br />
I don't know if the answer is for 4B and other female separatism to stop using the word "lesbian" at all, and simply call it "partnering with women" or "loving women" and allow "lesbian" to stand as a term for those who have always been attracted to women. Or is the bigger issue that polilez shouldn't exist at all and separatist women shouldn't look for other women?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.thecut.com/article/4b-american-women-trump-advice.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.thecut.com/article/4b-american-women-trump-advice.html</a><br />
<br />
Not mentioned in the article but it's been on my mind: It seems like 4B is a little controversial in the West because of the "acquired lesbianism"/polilez aspect and what that means for lesbians who have spent their lives trying to get people to understand that lesbian isn't something you can identify into or out of - you just are, you're born that way. <br />
<br />
I don't know if the answer is for 4B and other female separatism to stop using the word "lesbian" at all, and simply call it "partnering with women" or "loving women" and allow "lesbian" to stand as a term for those who have always been attracted to women. Or is the bigger issue that polilez shouldn't exist at all and separatist women shouldn't look for other women?]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[‘We’d rather perish’: protests roil South Korean women’s university over plan to admit male students]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=415</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 27 Nov 2024 18:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=6">Clover</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=415</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[The Guardian, November 26 2024.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/27/south-korea-dongduk-womens-university-protests-male-students" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/27/south-korea-dongduk-womens-university-protests-male-students</a><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>Dongduk women’s university in Seoul was set up to help women in a deeply patriarchal society, but a demographic crisis is putting that under pressure</blockquote>
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>Since 11 November, students have staged a sit-in, initially occupying the main building and blocking access to classroom buildings across campus, forcing classes to move online and a planned job fair to be cancelled.<br />
<br />
The outcry was sparked by plans for some departments to admit male students but have since spiralled into a wider clash over the future of women-only spaces in a country that is grappling with the issue of gender equality.<br />
<br />
“The university’s unilateral decision, made without any input from the students who actually study and live here, left us with no choice but to raise our voices,” one member of Dongduk’s student council says, speaking on condition of anonymity.<br />
<br />
In South Korea, women’s universities were established in the early 20th century as one of the only paths to higher education for women in a strictly patriarchal society.</blockquote>
<br />
<a href="https://ovarit.com/o/WomensLiberation/627102/wed-rather-perish-protests-roil-south-korean-womens-university-over-plan-to-admi" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">Discussion on Ovarit.</a>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[The Guardian, November 26 2024.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/27/south-korea-dongduk-womens-university-protests-male-students" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/27/south-korea-dongduk-womens-university-protests-male-students</a><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>Dongduk women’s university in Seoul was set up to help women in a deeply patriarchal society, but a demographic crisis is putting that under pressure</blockquote>
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>Since 11 November, students have staged a sit-in, initially occupying the main building and blocking access to classroom buildings across campus, forcing classes to move online and a planned job fair to be cancelled.<br />
<br />
The outcry was sparked by plans for some departments to admit male students but have since spiralled into a wider clash over the future of women-only spaces in a country that is grappling with the issue of gender equality.<br />
<br />
“The university’s unilateral decision, made without any input from the students who actually study and live here, left us with no choice but to raise our voices,” one member of Dongduk’s student council says, speaking on condition of anonymity.<br />
<br />
In South Korea, women’s universities were established in the early 20th century as one of the only paths to higher education for women in a strictly patriarchal society.</blockquote>
<br />
<a href="https://ovarit.com/o/WomensLiberation/627102/wed-rather-perish-protests-roil-south-korean-womens-university-over-plan-to-admi" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">Discussion on Ovarit.</a>]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[The African all-female tribe where men are not allowed (Umoja Uaso in Kenya)]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=403</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 25 Nov 2024 06:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=1">Kozlik</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=403</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Pulse, March 29 2023.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.pulse.ug/lifestyle/food-travel/the-african-all-female-tribe-where-men-are-not-allowed/vmen69n" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.pulse.ug/lifestyle/food-travel/the-african-all-female-tribe-where-men-are-not-allowed/vmen69n</a><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>The Umoja Uaso is an all-female matriarch. In the aftermath of British rule, over 1,400 women became pariahs some of whom found solace in a small village protected by a fence of thorns and barbed wire. Men are forbidden from living in this sanctuary to this day.</blockquote>
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>Umoja Uaso ("unity" in Swahili and due to its location near Uaso Nyiro river) is an all-female tribe in Samburu County, Kenya. Closed off from the outside world, the village is like a bandaid for women survivors of violence and genital mutilation and their young ones. Here, all women are welcome to stay, raise their children, date, and enjoy freedom from Samburu traditions of female subordination and find economic empowerment. </blockquote>
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Pulse, March 29 2023.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.pulse.ug/lifestyle/food-travel/the-african-all-female-tribe-where-men-are-not-allowed/vmen69n" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.pulse.ug/lifestyle/food-travel/the-african-all-female-tribe-where-men-are-not-allowed/vmen69n</a><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>The Umoja Uaso is an all-female matriarch. In the aftermath of British rule, over 1,400 women became pariahs some of whom found solace in a small village protected by a fence of thorns and barbed wire. Men are forbidden from living in this sanctuary to this day.</blockquote>
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>Umoja Uaso ("unity" in Swahili and due to its location near Uaso Nyiro river) is an all-female tribe in Samburu County, Kenya. Closed off from the outside world, the village is like a bandaid for women survivors of violence and genital mutilation and their young ones. Here, all women are welcome to stay, raise their children, date, and enjoy freedom from Samburu traditions of female subordination and find economic empowerment. </blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
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			<title><![CDATA[No Sex, No Dating, No Babies, No Marriage: How the 4B Movement Could Change America]]></title>
			<link>https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=366</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 17 Nov 2024 04:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://clovenhooves.org/member.php?action=profile&uid=6">Clover</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=366</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Politico, November 16 2024.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/16/4b-movement-america-political-protest-00189314" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/16/4b-movement-america-political-protest-00189314</a><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>The gender divide has sundered Korean society — and now it’s coming for the U.S.</blockquote>
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>The [original] movement [in Korea] formed in response to growing gender inequality and violence against women: Korea has one of the largest gender pay gaps in the world, and brutal murders of women — in subway stations, on rooftops and in their own homes, often at the hands of men they were dating — headline news shows daily. Amid so much political turmoil and bloodshed, 4B activists say the only way to make women safe — and convince society to take their safety seriously — is to swear off men altogether until something changes.<br />
<br />
And now, in the wake of Donald Trump’s reelection, 4B is going viral on U.S. social media among women who are furious with the men who helped the former president clinch a win. On TikTok alone, top videos have gained millions of views, and one widely shared tweet about the 4B movement post-election now has 450,000 likes and 21 million views at time of writing.</blockquote>
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Politico, November 16 2024.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/16/4b-movement-america-political-protest-00189314" target="_blank" rel="noopener" class="mycode_url">https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/16/4b-movement-america-political-protest-00189314</a><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>The gender divide has sundered Korean society — and now it’s coming for the U.S.</blockquote>
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>The [original] movement [in Korea] formed in response to growing gender inequality and violence against women: Korea has one of the largest gender pay gaps in the world, and brutal murders of women — in subway stations, on rooftops and in their own homes, often at the hands of men they were dating — headline news shows daily. Amid so much political turmoil and bloodshed, 4B activists say the only way to make women safe — and convince society to take their safety seriously — is to swear off men altogether until something changes.<br />
<br />
And now, in the wake of Donald Trump’s reelection, 4B is going viral on U.S. social media among women who are furious with the men who helped the former president clinch a win. On TikTok alone, top videos have gained millions of views, and one widely shared tweet about the 4B movement post-election now has 450,000 likes and 21 million views at time of writing.</blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
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