Gay Mens Misogyny and Homophobia

clovenhooves The Personal Is Political General Discussion Gay Mens Misogyny and Homophobia

Discussion Gay Mens Misogyny and Homophobia

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skunk

Mar 28 2025, 1:36 PM

#11

Well there's a line. Like @komorebi said, its not irrational for any LGB person to be defensive about homophobia. But it is irrational when gay mens misogyny is ignored because of their orientation. I'll always defend anyone against homophobia or biphobia but ill also always call anyone out for being misogynistic, regardless of who they are.

So if a lesbain or bi woman is defending a gay man who's clearly being misogynistic, yeah that's indeed irrational and im not down with that. But if they're defending a gay man against someone being homophobic towards him, that makes perfect sense to me. That homophobia affects all of us.

skunk

Mar 28 2025, 1:36 PM #11

YesYourNigel

134

Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM

#12

In my experience, lesbians are both less vulnerable to androcentrism (desperate butches/TIFs trying to roleplay as misogynistic one-of-the-bros aside) and also aware of how backstabby and misogynistic gay men actually are due to sharing gay communities and activism with them, compared to straight women who think gay men are basically 🛍 girl friends 💅 in male bodies or, worse, real-life yaoi characters.

Edited Mar 30 2025, 6:56 AM by YesYourNigel.

YesYourNigel

Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM #12

Wandering_Feminist56

Mar 30 2025, 1:32 AM

#13

It's weird but some of the most creepy, gropey men I've known have been gay men.

Wandering_Feminist56

Mar 30 2025, 1:32 AM #13

It's weird but some of the most creepy, gropey men I've known have been gay men.

Fortherecord

Mar 30 2025, 10:47 AM

#14

(Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM)YesYourNigel In my experience, lesbians are both less vulnerable to androcentrism (desperate butches/TIFs trying to roleplay as misogynistic one-of-the-bros aside) and also aware of how backstabby and misogynistic gay men actually are due to sharing gay communities and activism with them, compared to straight women who think gay men are basically 🛍 girl friends 💅 in male bodies or, worse, real-life yaoi characters.

No. We know many gay men are sexist. We are not stupid. And many straight women talk about problematic gay male behavior all the time.

Fortherecord

Mar 30 2025, 10:47 AM #14

(Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM)YesYourNigel In my experience, lesbians are both less vulnerable to androcentrism (desperate butches/TIFs trying to roleplay as misogynistic one-of-the-bros aside) and also aware of how backstabby and misogynistic gay men actually are due to sharing gay communities and activism with them, compared to straight women who think gay men are basically 🛍 girl friends 💅 in male bodies or, worse, real-life yaoi characters.

No. We know many gay men are sexist. We are not stupid. And many straight women talk about problematic gay male behavior all the time.

Fortherecord

Mar 30 2025, 11:15 AM

#15

(Mar 27 2025, 11:58 AM)komorebi
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord But I must ask-- why be defensive over homophobia towards gay men(I mean homophobia is wrong of course)?? I mean lesbians don't hold back in attacking/diminishing heterosexual men. Could it be said that some lesbians are "no my gay male nigel-ing=---- as much as you accuse heterosexual women of "nigel-ing" their boyfriends/husbands?

I think I don't understand your point here. You say yourself that homophobia is wrong, so what do you mean "why be defensive over homophobia towards gay men"? Because...it's wrong?

You don't see the irony in accusing heterosexual women of being defensive of heterosexual men including their husbands/boyfriends being attacked, but here lesbians are being defense of gay men?? I see nigel-ing here.

Fortherecord

Mar 30 2025, 11:15 AM #15

(Mar 27 2025, 11:58 AM)komorebi
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord But I must ask-- why be defensive over homophobia towards gay men(I mean homophobia is wrong of course)?? I mean lesbians don't hold back in attacking/diminishing heterosexual men. Could it be said that some lesbians are "no my gay male nigel-ing=---- as much as you accuse heterosexual women of "nigel-ing" their boyfriends/husbands?

I think I don't understand your point here. You say yourself that homophobia is wrong, so what do you mean "why be defensive over homophobia towards gay men"? Because...it's wrong?

Leithriel

Mar 30 2025, 7:51 PM

#16

(Mar 30 2025, 10:47 AM)Fortherecord
(Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM)YesYourNigel In my experience, lesbians are both less vulnerable to androcentrism (desperate butches/TIFs trying to roleplay as misogynistic one-of-the-bros aside) and also aware of how backstabby and misogynistic gay men actually are due to sharing gay communities and activism with them, compared to straight women who think gay men are basically 🛍 girl friends 💅 in male bodies or, worse, real-life yaoi characters.

No. We know many gay men are sexist. We are not stupid. And many straight women talk about problematic gay male behavior all the time.

Honestly I think understanding that gay men are still men and therefore higher on the pecking-order than women - even if they are not attracted to women - and willing to step on women's necks in order to stay ahead is something that many women sadly have to learn at some point in their lives.

I had several gay male friends when I was younger and put up with a lot of crap from them because hey - They were good guys right? They are safe men right? They are men that aren't going to rape/molest me right? All the while those same men will happily ask you to carry a kid for them as a surrogate without a second thought about your health or welfare, call you a 'breeder', make offensive caricatures of women in drag and refer to the outfits as 'fishy', and endlessly belittle women and our reproductive functions as disgusting but GOD FORBID you ever mention how ugly dicks/balls look or how you find anal sex disgusting and don't want to discuss it over dinner.

And let's not forget that gay men were some of the first people to throw Lesbians under the bus when it came to "accepting trans women as women" - I really didn't see more than a handful of gay men stick up for Lesbians until the TQIA+ had gained enough steam that Trans Identifying Females (TIFs) started trying to force gay men to sleep with them.

Honestly the way most gay men treated Lesbians over not wanting to sleep with TIMs was when my final fuck flew out the window in regards to gay men in general. I'll always support the LGB and fight for any LGB cause that benefits bisexual and Lesbian women, but if it is a gay male only issue I won't be standing on any picket lines in support of them.

Edited Mar 30 2025, 7:52 PM by Leithriel.

Leithriel

Mar 30 2025, 7:51 PM #16

(Mar 30 2025, 10:47 AM)Fortherecord
(Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM)YesYourNigel In my experience, lesbians are both less vulnerable to androcentrism (desperate butches/TIFs trying to roleplay as misogynistic one-of-the-bros aside) and also aware of how backstabby and misogynistic gay men actually are due to sharing gay communities and activism with them, compared to straight women who think gay men are basically 🛍 girl friends 💅 in male bodies or, worse, real-life yaoi characters.

No. We know many gay men are sexist. We are not stupid. And many straight women talk about problematic gay male behavior all the time.

komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde

319

Mar 30 2025, 8:14 PM

#17

(Mar 30 2025, 11:15 AM)Fortherecord You don't see the irony in accusing heterosexual women of being defensive of heterosexual men including their husbands/boyfriends being attacked, but here lesbians are being defense of gay men?? I see nigel-ing here.

You have this habit of accusing other women of saying and doing things we have never said, particularly if those women are lesbian or bisexual. A comment as simple as "homophobia is bad" elicits kicking and screaming from you about how I'm doing this or that, trying to get me to defend myself against the imaginary offenses in your head, when I've said nothing of the sort. I understand that bisexual and lesbian women have hurt you in the past, but I really think you should stop taking that out on random women in this forum, because frankly, I see homophobia here.

Edited Mar 30 2025, 8:23 PM by komorebi.

komorebi

“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde

Mar 30 2025, 8:14 PM #17

(Mar 30 2025, 11:15 AM)Fortherecord You don't see the irony in accusing heterosexual women of being defensive of heterosexual men including their husbands/boyfriends being attacked, but here lesbians are being defense of gay men?? I see nigel-ing here.

MenacinglyLavender
Fesbian Leminist🪻

Mar 30 2025, 8:29 PM

#18

(Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM)YesYourNigel In my experience, lesbians are both less vulnerable to androcentrism (desperate butches/TIFs trying to roleplay as misogynistic one-of-the-bros aside) and also aware of how backstabby and misogynistic gay men actually are due to sharing gay communities and activism with them, compared to straight women who think gay men are basically 🛍 girl friends 💅 in male bodies or, worse, real-life yaoi characters.

Hey, so butches aren’t any more misogynistic than feminine lesbians are, despite them not “womaning correctly”. It’s a baseless stereotype. A common complaint about radfem circles is that they’re hostile towards gnc/butch women so…can we not?

Anyways this thread started nuanced and has become exhausting and vaguely homophobic (eg. putting words in lesbian’s mouths). @komorebi nailed it so I’ll leave it at that

MenacinglyLavender

Fesbian Leminist🪻

Mar 30 2025, 8:29 PM #18

(Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM)YesYourNigel In my experience, lesbians are both less vulnerable to androcentrism (desperate butches/TIFs trying to roleplay as misogynistic one-of-the-bros aside) and also aware of how backstabby and misogynistic gay men actually are due to sharing gay communities and activism with them, compared to straight women who think gay men are basically 🛍 girl friends 💅 in male bodies or, worse, real-life yaoi characters.

Kozlik
Bahhh 💜🐐

249

Mar 31 2025, 11:04 AM

#19

@Fortherecord:

(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord But I must ask-- why be defensive over homophobia towards gay men(I mean homophobia is wrong of course)?? I mean lesbians don't hold back in attacking/diminishing heterosexual men. Could it be said that some lesbians are "no my gay male nigel-ing=---- as much as you accuse heterosexual women of "nigel-ing" their boyfriends/husbands?

Several things there:

1. In my view, Possum did not "accuse" heterosexual women of Nigel-ing their male partners -- she is asking the reader to reflect on their disparagement towards gay men to see if they are based on criticism of the oppressor class (men) or rooted in homophobia. The biggest "accusation" in Possum's rhetorical questions is the assumption that the heterosexual women is partnered with a MAGA nut. (I am also amused that there was more offense taken at the idea of accusing heterosexual women of "Nigel-ing" their hypothetical male partners than at said hypothetical male partners in Possum's rhetorical questions being MAGA nuts. lol.) I'm not sure how she is making accusations -- she is asking "do you, reader, do these things?" Perhaps if you view it as an accusation, that says more about how you internalized her questions than the questions themselves. And this is all opposed to you actually making an accusation of her accusing heterosexual women [...].

2. Re: "I mean lesbians don't hold back in attacking/diminishing heterosexual men." This isn't just a lesbian woman thing -- there are plenty of straight women in radfem leaning communities I've seen who "attack/diminish" heterosexual men: because a lot of heterosexual men act like utter trash. A decent amount of straight women choose to be single because straight men behave like absolute trash human beings. So I'm not sure why this claim is only applied to lesbians.

3. Asking "why be defensive over homophobia towards gay men" and then immediately following up with "homophobia is wrong of course" answers your own question. Lesbian women can find solidarity with gay men on the axis of homosexuality, to stay strong against a heteronormative society's homophobia. The answer is to not break solidarity in the homosexual community and to stand up to all forms of bigotry. In regards to lesbian women being oppressed on the axes of homosexuality and sex, Audre Lorde has a pretty good quote on that from her essay There Is No Hierarchy of Oppressions:

Audre Lorde Within the lesbian community I am Black, and within the Black community I am a lesbian. Any attack against Black people is a lesbian and gay issue, because I and thousands of other Black women are part of the lesbian community. Any attack against lesbians and gays is a Black issue, because thousands of lesbians and gay men are Black. There is no hierarchy of oppression.

The same stance can apply if we consider the two communities the lesbian and gay rights community and the women's rights community.

4. Following along with points 2 and 3, there is a difference between the criticism of straight women defending their straight male partners ("not my Nigel!") and "criticism" of homosexuality (homophobia) that would result in SSA women defending gay men, and that would be the difference between an individualist versus collectivist viewpoint.

(Mar 30 2025, 11:15 AM)Fortherecord You don't see the irony in accusing heterosexual women of being defensive of heterosexual men including their husbands/boyfriends being attacked, but here lesbians are being defense of gay men?? I see nigel-ing here.

See point 4. You seem to have an inability to distinguish between the criticism of straight women's individualist arguments to defend her choice in male partner versus a reason for lesbian women to maintain solidarity with the gay/lesbian community via a collectivist stance on defending against homophobia towards gay men on the basis of all instances of homophobia are wrong.

This is also the second time in the short amount of time of you being on this forum that you come into threads regarding homosexuality and start making assumptions about fellow forum members and, from my view, arguing in bad faith.

If you are unable to converse with lesbian and bisexual women on this forum in good faith, and continually try to find ways to make it seem like straight women are being persecuted, this community may not be a good fit for you.

Kozlik

Bahhh 💜🐐

Mar 31 2025, 11:04 AM #19

@Fortherecord:

(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord But I must ask-- why be defensive over homophobia towards gay men(I mean homophobia is wrong of course)?? I mean lesbians don't hold back in attacking/diminishing heterosexual men. Could it be said that some lesbians are "no my gay male nigel-ing=---- as much as you accuse heterosexual women of "nigel-ing" their boyfriends/husbands?

Audre Lorde Within the lesbian community I am Black, and within the Black community I am a lesbian. Any attack against Black people is a lesbian and gay issue, because I and thousands of other Black women are part of the lesbian community. Any attack against lesbians and gays is a Black issue, because thousands of lesbians and gay men are Black. There is no hierarchy of oppression.

(Mar 30 2025, 11:15 AM)Fortherecord You don't see the irony in accusing heterosexual women of being defensive of heterosexual men including their husbands/boyfriends being attacked, but here lesbians are being defense of gay men?? I see nigel-ing here.

skunk

Mar 31 2025, 12:01 PM

#20

(Mar 30 2025, 8:29 PM)MenacinglyLavender
(Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM)YesYourNigel In my experience, lesbians are both less vulnerable to androcentrism (desperate butches/TIFs trying to roleplay as misogynistic one-of-the-bros aside) and also aware of how backstabby and misogynistic gay men actually are due to sharing gay communities and activism with them, compared to straight women who think gay men are basically 🛍 girl friends 💅 in male bodies or, worse, real-life yaoi characters.

Anyways this thread started nuanced and has become exhausting and vaguely homophobic (eg. putting words in lesbian’s mouths). @komorebi nailed it so I’ll leave it at that

Its a little ironic considering what my original post was about, isn't it? 👀

skunk

Mar 31 2025, 12:01 PM #20

(Mar 30 2025, 8:29 PM)MenacinglyLavender
(Mar 30 2025, 1:00 AM)YesYourNigel In my experience, lesbians are both less vulnerable to androcentrism (desperate butches/TIFs trying to roleplay as misogynistic one-of-the-bros aside) and also aware of how backstabby and misogynistic gay men actually are due to sharing gay communities and activism with them, compared to straight women who think gay men are basically 🛍 girl friends 💅 in male bodies or, worse, real-life yaoi characters.

Anyways this thread started nuanced and has become exhausting and vaguely homophobic (eg. putting words in lesbian’s mouths). @komorebi nailed it so I’ll leave it at that

Its a little ironic considering what my original post was about, isn't it? 👀

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