clovenhooves The Personal Is Political Women's Rights Female Separatism What South Korea’s ‘Queen of 4B’ Wants Americans to Know

What South Korea’s ‘Queen of 4B’ Wants Americans to Know

What South Korea’s ‘Queen of 4B’ Wants Americans to Know

 
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Myrth
Fiesty Crone 🧙‍♀️
32
Mar 23 2025, 3:18 PM
#21
(Dec 19 2024, 3:17 PM)komorebi (Disclaimer, bisexual here, and my opinion's just my own. 😂)

I get how they arrived at the term "political lesbianism," but I don't like the words they chose. Especially because of gender crap, which is a separate but related issue, I think it's important for the definition of "lesbian" to be a woman who's exclusively attracted to other women. Any bending of that definition creates room to pressure lesbian women into sex with men.

I don't want to call it "biphobia" because that's so dramatic, but I do think that women who are attracted to men and also willing to partner with women should just call themselves bisexual, there's no need to go stealing the word "lesbian." Being bi, I have always made sense of things this way. If I partner with a woman, I'm still bisexual, and if I partner with a man, I'm still bisexual. 🤣 But to be fair, I think societal discourse at large has always been kinda like this (as in you're either straight or gay, no inbetween), so it makes sense that people get tripped up by it.

In terms of the actual practice, I have no objections to it whatsoever. The more women who cut men out of their lives, the better, probably. As long as they are straight-up with other wlw and don't call themselves "lesbians," I don't see the problem with it.

I am late to this discussion but I would like to comment. For point of reference, I am an older heterosexual woman, married to a disabled man, so please excuse any ignorance on my part. 

One of my friends has lived as a heterosexual for many decades. She recently decided she is a “lesbian” after a brief affair with another woman, her first such relationship. When I suggested that she is possibly bisexual, she got mildly offended.

Another of my friends, a widow after 40 years of marriage to a man, decided to date a woman. She generally acknowledges that she is bisexual, although sometimes she too refers to herself as a lesbian.

There is apparently some weird stigma amongst some people to being bisexual. Why, I cannot understand. But it is there, and it is real.
Myrth
Fiesty Crone 🧙‍♀️
Mar 23 2025, 3:18 PM #21

(Dec 19 2024, 3:17 PM)komorebi (Disclaimer, bisexual here, and my opinion's just my own. 😂)

I get how they arrived at the term "political lesbianism," but I don't like the words they chose. Especially because of gender crap, which is a separate but related issue, I think it's important for the definition of "lesbian" to be a woman who's exclusively attracted to other women. Any bending of that definition creates room to pressure lesbian women into sex with men.

I don't want to call it "biphobia" because that's so dramatic, but I do think that women who are attracted to men and also willing to partner with women should just call themselves bisexual, there's no need to go stealing the word "lesbian." Being bi, I have always made sense of things this way. If I partner with a woman, I'm still bisexual, and if I partner with a man, I'm still bisexual. 🤣 But to be fair, I think societal discourse at large has always been kinda like this (as in you're either straight or gay, no inbetween), so it makes sense that people get tripped up by it.

In terms of the actual practice, I have no objections to it whatsoever. The more women who cut men out of their lives, the better, probably. As long as they are straight-up with other wlw and don't call themselves "lesbians," I don't see the problem with it.

I am late to this discussion but I would like to comment. For point of reference, I am an older heterosexual woman, married to a disabled man, so please excuse any ignorance on my part. 

One of my friends has lived as a heterosexual for many decades. She recently decided she is a “lesbian” after a brief affair with another woman, her first such relationship. When I suggested that she is possibly bisexual, she got mildly offended.

Another of my friends, a widow after 40 years of marriage to a man, decided to date a woman. She generally acknowledges that she is bisexual, although sometimes she too refers to herself as a lesbian.

There is apparently some weird stigma amongst some people to being bisexual. Why, I cannot understand. But it is there, and it is real.

komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
316
Mar 23 2025, 3:19 PM
#22
(Mar 23 2025, 2:05 PM)Fortherecord You being bisexual proves the point I have been making. There is a mental block by non-heterosexual women on this topic. Yes you being bisexual causes a lack of understanding.

I think my previous reply to @VerdantHorizon hopefully cleared up any misunderstandings we may have had on this topic! But I would just like to question the suggestion here that my being bisexual causes me to not understand the straight experience. Heterosexual people are the default in every society and every culture on the planet, and in nearly every single piece of media that people encounter growing up. If anything, could we not say that your being heterosexual leads you to lack understanding about *my* experience, and that that lack of understanding is probably more fundamental than mine?

But I don't think that's a productive line of conversation. I prefer to empathize with other women, even when their experiences are different from my own. I may not experience the world the same way as you in a visceral sense, but I'm perfectly capable of understanding that we have different preferences and different values on this subject, and I'm able to do it without devaluing your experience or suggesting that you have a fundamental inability to understand me, because I don't think that's true. :) I think it would be better to approach conversations on Cloven Hooves in that way going forward. I know that many people may be joining from Ovarit in the coming days, but this forum is not like Ovarit.
Edited Mar 23 2025, 3:21 PM by komorebi. Edit Reason: grammar
komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
Mar 23 2025, 3:19 PM #22

(Mar 23 2025, 2:05 PM)Fortherecord You being bisexual proves the point I have been making. There is a mental block by non-heterosexual women on this topic. Yes you being bisexual causes a lack of understanding.

I think my previous reply to @VerdantHorizon hopefully cleared up any misunderstandings we may have had on this topic! But I would just like to question the suggestion here that my being bisexual causes me to not understand the straight experience. Heterosexual people are the default in every society and every culture on the planet, and in nearly every single piece of media that people encounter growing up. If anything, could we not say that your being heterosexual leads you to lack understanding about *my* experience, and that that lack of understanding is probably more fundamental than mine?

But I don't think that's a productive line of conversation. I prefer to empathize with other women, even when their experiences are different from my own. I may not experience the world the same way as you in a visceral sense, but I'm perfectly capable of understanding that we have different preferences and different values on this subject, and I'm able to do it without devaluing your experience or suggesting that you have a fundamental inability to understand me, because I don't think that's true. :) I think it would be better to approach conversations on Cloven Hooves in that way going forward. I know that many people may be joining from Ovarit in the coming days, but this forum is not like Ovarit.

Mar 23 2025, 7:35 PM
#23
(Mar 23 2025, 3:19 PM)komorebi
(Mar 23 2025, 2:05 PM)Fortherecord You being bisexual proves the point I have been making. There is a mental block by non-heterosexual women on this topic. Yes you being bisexual causes a lack of understanding.

I think my previous reply to @VerdantHorizon hopefully cleared up any misunderstandings we may have had on this topic! But I would just like to question the suggestion here that my being bisexual causes me to not understand the straight experience. Heterosexual people are the default in every society and every culture on the planet, and in nearly every single piece of media that people encounter growing up. If anything, could we not say that your being heterosexual leads you to lack understanding about *my* experience, and that that lack of understanding is probably more fundamental than mine?

But I don't think that's a productive line of conversation. I prefer to empathize with other women, even when their experiences are different from my own. I may not experience the world the same way as you in a visceral sense, but I'm perfectly capable of understanding that we have different preferences and different values on this subject, and I'm able to do it without devaluing your experience or suggesting that you have a fundamental inability to understand me, because I don't think that's true. :) I think it would be better to approach conversations on Cloven Hooves in that way going forward. I know that many people may be joining from Ovarit in the coming days, but this forum is not like Ovarit.

You yourself said you didn't see much difference in what we are saying, so no growing up in a straight world doesn't mean much. A bisexual woman doesn't known and will never know how it feels to find women unattractive. 

I never said I understand the bisexual woman experience. The point is heterosexual feminist are rarely talking about bisexual women about their sexuality. Whereas talks about platonic female life partners for heterosexual women is lazily thrown around by bi women and lesbians.
Fortherecord
Mar 23 2025, 7:35 PM #23

(Mar 23 2025, 3:19 PM)komorebi
(Mar 23 2025, 2:05 PM)Fortherecord You being bisexual proves the point I have been making. There is a mental block by non-heterosexual women on this topic. Yes you being bisexual causes a lack of understanding.

I think my previous reply to @VerdantHorizon hopefully cleared up any misunderstandings we may have had on this topic! But I would just like to question the suggestion here that my being bisexual causes me to not understand the straight experience. Heterosexual people are the default in every society and every culture on the planet, and in nearly every single piece of media that people encounter growing up. If anything, could we not say that your being heterosexual leads you to lack understanding about *my* experience, and that that lack of understanding is probably more fundamental than mine?

But I don't think that's a productive line of conversation. I prefer to empathize with other women, even when their experiences are different from my own. I may not experience the world the same way as you in a visceral sense, but I'm perfectly capable of understanding that we have different preferences and different values on this subject, and I'm able to do it without devaluing your experience or suggesting that you have a fundamental inability to understand me, because I don't think that's true. :) I think it would be better to approach conversations on Cloven Hooves in that way going forward. I know that many people may be joining from Ovarit in the coming days, but this forum is not like Ovarit.

You yourself said you didn't see much difference in what we are saying, so no growing up in a straight world doesn't mean much. A bisexual woman doesn't known and will never know how it feels to find women unattractive. 

I never said I understand the bisexual woman experience. The point is heterosexual feminist are rarely talking about bisexual women about their sexuality. Whereas talks about platonic female life partners for heterosexual women is lazily thrown around by bi women and lesbians.

Mar 23 2025, 9:00 PM
#24
(Mar 23 2025, 3:06 PM)Clover
Fortherecord As a heterosexual woman it is not appealing at all. You would never tell a lesbian to have a platonic life partnership with a gay male. The fact it doesn't involve romance and sex doesn't make it less tone deaf and dismissive.
Why would anyone ask for that to be done? 4B is done in the context of [straight] women choosing to not seek out partnerships with the oppressor class, to make a political statement, for safety, etc. Lesbian women are oppressed on the axes of being female and being homosexual. What benefit would there be for someone to tell a lesbian woman to have a platonic life partnership with a gay male? There is no good reason for this, besides things like economic hardships in unjust systems, like Dworkin marrying a gay man to get healthcare coverage iirc. For female separatism and 4B-type movements, the reason is to make a stance against the oppressor class.

I think anyone "telling" straight women to go have platonic life partnerships with other women seems like the 2nd wave "political lesbianism" type of activism. Which I think differs from the modern 4B. Just because 4B means no sex/relationships with men, it doesn't mean straight women need to go make themselves fill the void of a romantic relationship with a male with a platonic female relationship. The point of 4B should be for women to center themselves in their own lives and stop providing the copious amounts of free labor, emotional/mental/sexual/physical, that they give to men.

Fortherecord Stop sitting up and theorizing on our living arrangements and who we will choose as life partners. The OP for this thread claims to be heterosexual, but 9/10 these topics are started by bisexual or lesbians-- and they simply don't have a right to participate or moderate these conversations.
I'm not sure what "these conversations" mean, but bisexual and lesbian women are welcome to participate in discussions regarding 4B and female separatism. Anyone can "theorize" on anyone's living arrangements. The idea that women who have no interest in romantic relationships with men should not be allowed to theorize on women's living arrangements or relationships with men is strange. If anything, SSA women are more likely to point out the implicit biases and behaviors that straight women put up with with men that those who aren't sexually attracted to men wouldn't bother to put up with. Women gain nothing from being told to not discuss their observations on how other women, women they might not share the same perspectives or lived realities with, interact in society.

Fortherecord With a man a sexless relationship could still be satisfying because we have underlying emotional feelings.
I'm confused. Sexuality is based on sexual attraction. Why can't heterosexual woman have "emotional feelings" with other women? I'm straight, and I love my close female friends and family members. I could never be sexually attracted to my female friends, because I'm straight. I could be sexually attracted to men, but have no emotional feelings for them. I could have emotional feelings for a man, but not be sexually attracted to them. If the "underlying emotional feelings" are what make sexless relationships with men satisfying for straight women, does that mean straight women don't have underlying emotional feelings for women..? I would disagree with that. Love isn't inherently sexual..? One doesn't need to feel love to have sex, one don't need sex to feel love.

Regardless, in the end, yes, a straight woman having a platonic partnership with another woman is going to be different from a sexless relationship with a man. Mainly there would not be any sexual attraction at all. Of course, there will be something missing. It's not meant to be appealing, it's meant to promote women's liberation from male oppression.

Talk about missing the point. LOL. It is irrelevant why heterosexual women are being told to be celibate. The point is that we understand viscerally forcing a partnership-- platonic or not with a gay man with a lesbian is dismissive. 

Even if one supports women abstaining from men/4B, I don't see this impulse to advise or even suggest heterosexual women have platonic wives. 4B and political lesbianism is not the same thing, but these conversations of go find yourself a female life partner eventually comes up with 4B talks. I mean look at this thread.

When I say no emotional feelings-- I mean no romantic feelings. 

As far as why can't bi/lesbian women theorize about separatism--- I never said that. I said lesbians/bi women don't get to theorize about what platonic partnerships heterosexual women enter to. I have been at meetings where bisexual women would just broach the topic as if this is their lives. It is always "this is what heterosexual women should/could do" and it is offensive. It is not their conversation to have.
Fortherecord
Mar 23 2025, 9:00 PM #24

(Mar 23 2025, 3:06 PM)Clover
Fortherecord As a heterosexual woman it is not appealing at all. You would never tell a lesbian to have a platonic life partnership with a gay male. The fact it doesn't involve romance and sex doesn't make it less tone deaf and dismissive.
Why would anyone ask for that to be done? 4B is done in the context of [straight] women choosing to not seek out partnerships with the oppressor class, to make a political statement, for safety, etc. Lesbian women are oppressed on the axes of being female and being homosexual. What benefit would there be for someone to tell a lesbian woman to have a platonic life partnership with a gay male? There is no good reason for this, besides things like economic hardships in unjust systems, like Dworkin marrying a gay man to get healthcare coverage iirc. For female separatism and 4B-type movements, the reason is to make a stance against the oppressor class.

I think anyone "telling" straight women to go have platonic life partnerships with other women seems like the 2nd wave "political lesbianism" type of activism. Which I think differs from the modern 4B. Just because 4B means no sex/relationships with men, it doesn't mean straight women need to go make themselves fill the void of a romantic relationship with a male with a platonic female relationship. The point of 4B should be for women to center themselves in their own lives and stop providing the copious amounts of free labor, emotional/mental/sexual/physical, that they give to men.

Fortherecord Stop sitting up and theorizing on our living arrangements and who we will choose as life partners. The OP for this thread claims to be heterosexual, but 9/10 these topics are started by bisexual or lesbians-- and they simply don't have a right to participate or moderate these conversations.
I'm not sure what "these conversations" mean, but bisexual and lesbian women are welcome to participate in discussions regarding 4B and female separatism. Anyone can "theorize" on anyone's living arrangements. The idea that women who have no interest in romantic relationships with men should not be allowed to theorize on women's living arrangements or relationships with men is strange. If anything, SSA women are more likely to point out the implicit biases and behaviors that straight women put up with with men that those who aren't sexually attracted to men wouldn't bother to put up with. Women gain nothing from being told to not discuss their observations on how other women, women they might not share the same perspectives or lived realities with, interact in society.

Fortherecord With a man a sexless relationship could still be satisfying because we have underlying emotional feelings.
I'm confused. Sexuality is based on sexual attraction. Why can't heterosexual woman have "emotional feelings" with other women? I'm straight, and I love my close female friends and family members. I could never be sexually attracted to my female friends, because I'm straight. I could be sexually attracted to men, but have no emotional feelings for them. I could have emotional feelings for a man, but not be sexually attracted to them. If the "underlying emotional feelings" are what make sexless relationships with men satisfying for straight women, does that mean straight women don't have underlying emotional feelings for women..? I would disagree with that. Love isn't inherently sexual..? One doesn't need to feel love to have sex, one don't need sex to feel love.

Regardless, in the end, yes, a straight woman having a platonic partnership with another woman is going to be different from a sexless relationship with a man. Mainly there would not be any sexual attraction at all. Of course, there will be something missing. It's not meant to be appealing, it's meant to promote women's liberation from male oppression.

Talk about missing the point. LOL. It is irrelevant why heterosexual women are being told to be celibate. The point is that we understand viscerally forcing a partnership-- platonic or not with a gay man with a lesbian is dismissive. 

Even if one supports women abstaining from men/4B, I don't see this impulse to advise or even suggest heterosexual women have platonic wives. 4B and political lesbianism is not the same thing, but these conversations of go find yourself a female life partner eventually comes up with 4B talks. I mean look at this thread.

When I say no emotional feelings-- I mean no romantic feelings. 

As far as why can't bi/lesbian women theorize about separatism--- I never said that. I said lesbians/bi women don't get to theorize about what platonic partnerships heterosexual women enter to. I have been at meetings where bisexual women would just broach the topic as if this is their lives. It is always "this is what heterosexual women should/could do" and it is offensive. It is not their conversation to have.

Clover
Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐
719
Mar 23 2025, 9:57 PM
#25
(Mar 23 2025, 9:00 PM)Fortherecord Talk about missing the point. LOL.
How am I missing the point?

Quote:It is irrelevant why heterosexual women are being told to be celibate.
You're in a thread about 4B and female separatism. It kind of is relevant why [straight] women would be "being told to" (more like, if they want to practice 4B they kind of "have to") be celibate.

Quote:Replacing romantic life partnership with platonic female life partners misses the point and to many women is still offensive.

As a heterosexual woman it is not appealing at all. [...] I mean if someone wants that-- that is valid, but the way it is just thrown around is odd.
Elsacat's post that spurred this response suggested nothing about encouraging straight women to "replace" relationships with men with platonic relationships with women. She was suggesting a larger cultural change of normalizing platonic relationships in general. She also then replied with “Those who want to go it alone should never feel pressed to do otherwise.” implying that if a woman doesn't not want to have a platonic partnership with another woman, she does not have to.

Re:
Quote:A lot of times, asexual women/bisexual women/lesbians will flippantly promote heterosexual women having "female platonic life partners".

And:
Quote:Whereas talks about platonic female life partners for heterosexual women is lazily thrown around by bi women and lesbians.

And:
Quote:Even if one supports women abstaining from men/4B, I don't see this impulse to advise or even suggest heterosexual women have platonic wives. 4B and political lesbianism is not the same thing, but these conversations of go find yourself a female life partner eventually comes up with 4B talks. I mean look at this thread.

And:
Quote:It is always "this is what heterosexual women should/could do" and it is offensive. It is not their conversation to have.

No one here has been doing that, from what I can see. Also "should" is very different from "could". No one here has been suggesting women be required to partner platonically with women if they are lonely and want to live a 4B/female separatist lifestyle. I even skimmed through the article this post was based on again and saw nothing of the Korean woman interviewed that suggested such a thing, she wrote:

Ji Yeon So divorced women, single moms — they were wondering if they are able to participate in 4B, if they’ve ever had a kid, for example. In Korea, there aren’t a lot of single moms, and there are a lot more people who have never been married and do not have kids. But in America, there’s a lot more diversity in family types. So I told them, you can do 4B however you like, anyone can participate, but in Korea, we do it this way. I want the western 4B to be an independent movement itself, and I wanted to respect the democracy within those movements, so I won’t speak that much about what 4B in the West should be, because it’s American culture.

But a big part of 4B is... No dating/sex with men... Whether or not a straight woman might want to seek out a platonic partnership with another woman is ultimately irrelevant. No amount of lamenting that "a platonic relationship with another woman as a straight woman is not the same!!!" is going to change that for most straight women, not dating or having sex with men will probably suck.

Quote:As far as why can't bi/lesbian women theorize about separatism--- I never said that. I said lesbians/bi women don't get to theorize about what platonic partnerships heterosexual women enter to.

"these conversations" was a vague phrase. You also dismissed the fact that the OP of the thread is heterosexual, and yet claim bisexual and lesbian women are "9/10" the ones "theorizing" these conversations.

Again, from what I can tell, no one in this thread has been suggesting straight women should go partner with other women. You seem to be fighting imaginary strawmen you've created in your head and expecting others to somehow have a candid discussion with you at the same time. You've been active on this forum for one day and you choose to come out swinging about how bisexual and lesbian women will never understand being straight, getting offended over discussions over a desire for more normalization of platonic lifelong relationships, and that "growing up in a straight world doesn't mean much" to a bisexual woman. Please go read the forum rules and guidelines, especially the one about participating in good faith.
Edited Mar 23 2025, 11:21 PM by Clover.

Kozlik's regular member account. 🍀🐐
Clover
Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐
Mar 23 2025, 9:57 PM #25

(Mar 23 2025, 9:00 PM)Fortherecord Talk about missing the point. LOL.
How am I missing the point?

Quote:It is irrelevant why heterosexual women are being told to be celibate.
You're in a thread about 4B and female separatism. It kind of is relevant why [straight] women would be "being told to" (more like, if they want to practice 4B they kind of "have to") be celibate.

Quote:Replacing romantic life partnership with platonic female life partners misses the point and to many women is still offensive.

As a heterosexual woman it is not appealing at all. [...] I mean if someone wants that-- that is valid, but the way it is just thrown around is odd.
Elsacat's post that spurred this response suggested nothing about encouraging straight women to "replace" relationships with men with platonic relationships with women. She was suggesting a larger cultural change of normalizing platonic relationships in general. She also then replied with “Those who want to go it alone should never feel pressed to do otherwise.” implying that if a woman doesn't not want to have a platonic partnership with another woman, she does not have to.

Re:
Quote:A lot of times, asexual women/bisexual women/lesbians will flippantly promote heterosexual women having "female platonic life partners".

And:
Quote:Whereas talks about platonic female life partners for heterosexual women is lazily thrown around by bi women and lesbians.

And:
Quote:Even if one supports women abstaining from men/4B, I don't see this impulse to advise or even suggest heterosexual women have platonic wives. 4B and political lesbianism is not the same thing, but these conversations of go find yourself a female life partner eventually comes up with 4B talks. I mean look at this thread.

And:
Quote:It is always "this is what heterosexual women should/could do" and it is offensive. It is not their conversation to have.

No one here has been doing that, from what I can see. Also "should" is very different from "could". No one here has been suggesting women be required to partner platonically with women if they are lonely and want to live a 4B/female separatist lifestyle. I even skimmed through the article this post was based on again and saw nothing of the Korean woman interviewed that suggested such a thing, she wrote:

Ji Yeon So divorced women, single moms — they were wondering if they are able to participate in 4B, if they’ve ever had a kid, for example. In Korea, there aren’t a lot of single moms, and there are a lot more people who have never been married and do not have kids. But in America, there’s a lot more diversity in family types. So I told them, you can do 4B however you like, anyone can participate, but in Korea, we do it this way. I want the western 4B to be an independent movement itself, and I wanted to respect the democracy within those movements, so I won’t speak that much about what 4B in the West should be, because it’s American culture.

But a big part of 4B is... No dating/sex with men... Whether or not a straight woman might want to seek out a platonic partnership with another woman is ultimately irrelevant. No amount of lamenting that "a platonic relationship with another woman as a straight woman is not the same!!!" is going to change that for most straight women, not dating or having sex with men will probably suck.

Quote:As far as why can't bi/lesbian women theorize about separatism--- I never said that. I said lesbians/bi women don't get to theorize about what platonic partnerships heterosexual women enter to.

"these conversations" was a vague phrase. You also dismissed the fact that the OP of the thread is heterosexual, and yet claim bisexual and lesbian women are "9/10" the ones "theorizing" these conversations.

Again, from what I can tell, no one in this thread has been suggesting straight women should go partner with other women. You seem to be fighting imaginary strawmen you've created in your head and expecting others to somehow have a candid discussion with you at the same time. You've been active on this forum for one day and you choose to come out swinging about how bisexual and lesbian women will never understand being straight, getting offended over discussions over a desire for more normalization of platonic lifelong relationships, and that "growing up in a straight world doesn't mean much" to a bisexual woman. Please go read the forum rules and guidelines, especially the one about participating in good faith.


Kozlik's regular member account. 🍀🐐

Mar 24 2025, 8:57 AM
#26
(Mar 23 2025, 1:51 PM)Fortherecord Either way, I am tired of heterosexual lives being theorized with. Let heterosexual women who choose to be single decide. Stop sitting up and theorizing on our living arrangements and who we will choose as life partners. The OP for this thread claims to be heterosexual, but 9/10 these topics are started by bisexual or lesbians-- and they simply don't have a right to participate or moderate these conversations. 

I don't claim to be het. I AM het. I simply have interest in other ways people live, the human condition. I don't learn as much staying inside a white het American bubble full of things I already know and/or have lived.

I'll leave it to Clover to determine who has a right to participate or moderate these conversations on this site.
Elsacat
Mar 24 2025, 8:57 AM #26

(Mar 23 2025, 1:51 PM)Fortherecord Either way, I am tired of heterosexual lives being theorized with. Let heterosexual women who choose to be single decide. Stop sitting up and theorizing on our living arrangements and who we will choose as life partners. The OP for this thread claims to be heterosexual, but 9/10 these topics are started by bisexual or lesbians-- and they simply don't have a right to participate or moderate these conversations. 

I don't claim to be het. I AM het. I simply have interest in other ways people live, the human condition. I don't learn as much staying inside a white het American bubble full of things I already know and/or have lived.

I'll leave it to Clover to determine who has a right to participate or moderate these conversations on this site.

Mar 24 2025, 11:32 AM
#27
I’m Korean, first generation, and I think ppl see 4b out of a living in the west lens.

4b isn’t about promoting lesbianism. It’s basically saying that the misogyny of Korean men is such that they are not seen as sex partners. Given that about 90 percent of women are more straight than not, they will wait for partners who are not Korean men but fit in, such as expat whites, expat Korean Americans first gen, and the increasing number of half white and half Korean men.
Wrongtoy
Mar 24 2025, 11:32 AM #27

I’m Korean, first generation, and I think ppl see 4b out of a living in the west lens.

4b isn’t about promoting lesbianism. It’s basically saying that the misogyny of Korean men is such that they are not seen as sex partners. Given that about 90 percent of women are more straight than not, they will wait for partners who are not Korean men but fit in, such as expat whites, expat Korean Americans first gen, and the increasing number of half white and half Korean men.

komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
316
Mar 24 2025, 12:32 PM
#28
Before I respond, I think it'd be good for me to reiterate what I said in my other post, in case it was missed!

komorebi Which is not at all to suggest that just because I'm fine with it, that other women should be. I don't think anyone on this thread has or would suggest that straight women should just accept partners they're not attracted to, lol.

Just so that we're clear that we agree with each other on this point! :)

(Mar 23 2025, 7:35 PM)Fortherecord You yourself said you didn't see much difference in what we are saying, so no growing up in a straight world doesn't mean much. A bisexual woman doesn't known and will never know how it feels to find women unattractive. 

I never said I understand the bisexual woman experience. The point is heterosexual feminist are rarely talking about bisexual women about their sexuality. Whereas talks about platonic female life partners for heterosexual women is lazily thrown around by bi women and lesbians.

I must apologize as I found your reply a little disjointed, but I'll try my best to respond nonetheless. :D

If the assertion here is that we feel differently about an issue, therefore I can never understand or empathize with you, then I'm afraid I completely disagree. In fact, encountering people who are different from you is precisely how one develops understanding and empathy for others in the first place. If someone is always surrounded by people who feel the same way as they do, they never have to develop the skill of putting themselves in someone else's shoes, and seeing things from someone else's point of view.

Conversely, when you meet people who are different from you—who hold different beliefs, or who have different preferences and values—you can respond in one of two ways. You can say, we don't feel the same way about this, so we can never understand each other, which is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Or...you can try to understand each other. And most likely, if both parties mean well, you'll reach a more satisfying conclusion.

But perhaps it is because of my experiences that I think this way. Nearly all the time, no matter where I go, I am different, in so many ways. Whether it's because of my sex, my race, my sexuality, my personality, or my interests...whatever. And so, in order to live in this world and in society, it's been necessary for me to develop the skill of meeting someone who is different from myself, acknowledging that we are different and in fact may never feel the same way about things, yet try to understand them. You get good at what you practice, or so they say. :)
komorebi
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” – Audre Lorde
Mar 24 2025, 12:32 PM #28

Before I respond, I think it'd be good for me to reiterate what I said in my other post, in case it was missed!

komorebi Which is not at all to suggest that just because I'm fine with it, that other women should be. I don't think anyone on this thread has or would suggest that straight women should just accept partners they're not attracted to, lol.

Just so that we're clear that we agree with each other on this point! :)

(Mar 23 2025, 7:35 PM)Fortherecord You yourself said you didn't see much difference in what we are saying, so no growing up in a straight world doesn't mean much. A bisexual woman doesn't known and will never know how it feels to find women unattractive. 

I never said I understand the bisexual woman experience. The point is heterosexual feminist are rarely talking about bisexual women about their sexuality. Whereas talks about platonic female life partners for heterosexual women is lazily thrown around by bi women and lesbians.

I must apologize as I found your reply a little disjointed, but I'll try my best to respond nonetheless. :D

If the assertion here is that we feel differently about an issue, therefore I can never understand or empathize with you, then I'm afraid I completely disagree. In fact, encountering people who are different from you is precisely how one develops understanding and empathy for others in the first place. If someone is always surrounded by people who feel the same way as they do, they never have to develop the skill of putting themselves in someone else's shoes, and seeing things from someone else's point of view.

Conversely, when you meet people who are different from you—who hold different beliefs, or who have different preferences and values—you can respond in one of two ways. You can say, we don't feel the same way about this, so we can never understand each other, which is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Or...you can try to understand each other. And most likely, if both parties mean well, you'll reach a more satisfying conclusion.

But perhaps it is because of my experiences that I think this way. Nearly all the time, no matter where I go, I am different, in so many ways. Whether it's because of my sex, my race, my sexuality, my personality, or my interests...whatever. And so, in order to live in this world and in society, it's been necessary for me to develop the skill of meeting someone who is different from myself, acknowledging that we are different and in fact may never feel the same way about things, yet try to understand them. You get good at what you practice, or so they say. :)

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