Discussion Gay Mens Misogyny and Homophobia
Discussion Gay Mens Misogyny and Homophobia
Mar 31 2025, 5:25 PM
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord Some people laser focus on gay men who use surrogates because they are often how people who support surrogacy sell it on. They say if surrogacy is banned-- what about gay men? People say that being against surrogacy is homophobic towards gay men.
Yes, many liberals use "wholesome" gay male surrogacy as a way to whitewash the ethical issues with surrogacy and this is wrong. But it still doesn't make sense to laser focus on gay male surrogacy. This laser focus on gay men in the surrogacy debate is a failure of both left and right. Instead of focusing on the women and children hurt by surrogacy, the left focuses on the handful of "wholesome gay family" stories and the right focuses on a handful of "degenerate gay family" stories. It seems very disingenuous to me when right wingers laser focus on gay male surrogacy because even if we banned all gay male surrogacy tomorrow, straight couples would still be using surrogacy to harm women and babies. It raises a red flag for me that the person laser focused on gay male surrogacy is primarily offended by gay men existing instead of being offended by the treatment of women+babies.
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord But I must ask-- why be defensive over homophobia towards gay men(I mean homophobia is wrong of course)?
Because:
1.) Homophobia is wrong. Same with racism, ableism, etc. I have no interest in violating basic human rights of men, I just want men to stop violating the basic human rights of women.
2.) Someone who is genuinely homophobic toward gay men is also going to be shitty toward lesbians and bi women. There's a line between valid criticism vs genuine homophobia. Gay male misogyny is an issue that deserves to be talking about and vented about. But there's still a line between being civil vs being blindly hateful. I think it's important to be aware of this line and try to stay on the right side of it, because genuine homophobia attracts genuine homophobes and I don't want homophobic women anywhere near feminism, because lesbian and bi women are also women and also matter. If we have a feminist space where homophobia (or racism, ableism, etc) is acceptable as long as it's only directed toward men, the space will eventually attract women who are homophobic (or etc) toward women as well. It shifts the Overton window away from legitimate feminism and into trad populism.
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord I mean lesbians don't hold back in attacking/diminishing heterosexual men.Heterosexual men are not oppressed or disadvantaged for being heterosexual men. Gay men absolutely benefit from male privilege, but they're still disadvantaged due to being gay. I don't think these two things are comparable.
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord Could it be said that some lesbians are "no my gay male nigel-ing=---- as much as you accuse heterosexual women of "nigel-ing" their boyfriends/husbands?
Yes, some lesbians will "Not My Nigel" for gay men (or trans). Women are individuals and so you will unfortunately find examples of male-pandering in every group of women. Have you seen lesbians not-my-Nigeling gay men on clovenhooves? Or is this just a general complaint? I can't tell if you're talking about not-my-Nigeling happening in this thread or just in general.
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord Some people laser focus on gay men who use surrogates because they are often how people who support surrogacy sell it on. They say if surrogacy is banned-- what about gay men? People say that being against surrogacy is homophobic towards gay men.
Yes, many liberals use "wholesome" gay male surrogacy as a way to whitewash the ethical issues with surrogacy and this is wrong. But it still doesn't make sense to laser focus on gay male surrogacy. This laser focus on gay men in the surrogacy debate is a failure of both left and right. Instead of focusing on the women and children hurt by surrogacy, the left focuses on the handful of "wholesome gay family" stories and the right focuses on a handful of "degenerate gay family" stories. It seems very disingenuous to me when right wingers laser focus on gay male surrogacy because even if we banned all gay male surrogacy tomorrow, straight couples would still be using surrogacy to harm women and babies. It raises a red flag for me that the person laser focused on gay male surrogacy is primarily offended by gay men existing instead of being offended by the treatment of women+babies.
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord But I must ask-- why be defensive over homophobia towards gay men(I mean homophobia is wrong of course)?
Because:
1.) Homophobia is wrong. Same with racism, ableism, etc. I have no interest in violating basic human rights of men, I just want men to stop violating the basic human rights of women.
2.) Someone who is genuinely homophobic toward gay men is also going to be shitty toward lesbians and bi women. There's a line between valid criticism vs genuine homophobia. Gay male misogyny is an issue that deserves to be talking about and vented about. But there's still a line between being civil vs being blindly hateful. I think it's important to be aware of this line and try to stay on the right side of it, because genuine homophobia attracts genuine homophobes and I don't want homophobic women anywhere near feminism, because lesbian and bi women are also women and also matter. If we have a feminist space where homophobia (or racism, ableism, etc) is acceptable as long as it's only directed toward men, the space will eventually attract women who are homophobic (or etc) toward women as well. It shifts the Overton window away from legitimate feminism and into trad populism.
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord I mean lesbians don't hold back in attacking/diminishing heterosexual men.Heterosexual men are not oppressed or disadvantaged for being heterosexual men. Gay men absolutely benefit from male privilege, but they're still disadvantaged due to being gay. I don't think these two things are comparable.
(Mar 26 2025, 6:15 PM)Fortherecord Could it be said that some lesbians are "no my gay male nigel-ing=---- as much as you accuse heterosexual women of "nigel-ing" their boyfriends/husbands?
Yes, some lesbians will "Not My Nigel" for gay men (or trans). Women are individuals and so you will unfortunately find examples of male-pandering in every group of women. Have you seen lesbians not-my-Nigeling gay men on clovenhooves? Or is this just a general complaint? I can't tell if you're talking about not-my-Nigeling happening in this thread or just in general.