Quote:For women who are literally illiterate and kept on a fundamentalist compound in the deep south, sure that's a victim of brainwashing. But women who are educated and free enough to participate in these conversations are not brainwashed.
But every woman is brainwashed, literally from day one. Women live every moment of their day being convinced they're inferior, that they live in a foreign, man's world and that men know best. They also get sucked into religion that preys on their BeKind female socialisation and sells them obedience to male authority.
Quote:I really believe that conservative women are just as obsessed with the madonna/wh*re dichotomy as men.
They're really not. It doesn't make sense for women to care about who's the Madonna and who's the wh*re - they don't get anything out of that. Women "care" because men care, because MEN are the possessive narcissists who want a pure virgin they can control more easily and use as breeding stock, and women know their only hope for a normal life lies in sucking up to men.
It's easy to get frustrated with women backstabbing other women for the sake of men and to conclude that both men and women are working towards the same kind of male supremacist goal, but they're not. Women work for male benefit out of
defense from the patriarchal system they have no way of escaping. Men aggressively and proactively work for their own benefit because they're selfish shitheads who don't like consequences and who want a free personal bangmaid. This is a crucial, fundamental distinction - men are promised the world in a patriarchal system, whereas women are promised protection from the men's world. All women have a lifetime of degradation, threats, warnings and usually victimisation by men, and it's within these norms that they are sold the fantasy that they will have a cushy life if only they appease their oppressors and prove themselves as obedient cogs in the system. No-one in their right mind would advocate their own abuse and subjugation otherwise. It's also why conservative women consistently come from more religious, misogynistic and male-reliant backgrounds that feel normal and impossible to change. They don't all independently decide that, oh yeah, actually it's great to get beaten and raped with no recourse, and it's cool to be treated as subhuman. Conservative women deal with just as much abuse as any other woman in a patriarchal system, they just internalise it and think if they coddle men even more, they'll be spared. Whereas men, who live with their heads up each other's asses all their life and who can afford in a patriarchal society to forget that women exist, simply prioritise their own benefits.
It's important to remember that male supremacism doesn't make a lick of sense for any woman to support. It's like a black person supporting white supremacism. It's always a defensive tactic meant to appease the oppressors, the "fawn" option from fight, flight, freeze, fawn. Which is also why we make a distinction between regular and internalised misogyny. Women parrot misogyny, men actually believe it.
This is also why it's so much easier to get women to see through the nonsensical bs of sexism compared to men, unless said woman has already ended up married and used to revolving her life around her Nigel (which said Nigels have no interest in doing in reverse). Meanwhile, men will go full FlatEarther mode and deny even the most blatanty obvious reality (such as the extent of male violence over women, and the lack of any female violence in return) just so they wouldn't acknowledge how immoral and unfair the patriarchy is.
And there's a huge difference between two groups where one is told they deserve to exploit and oppress a whole group due to their fundamental natural inferiority, vs a group that's told all their life they're inferior and nothing but sex objects, and who desperately wants to distance themselves from that by projecting loyalty, obedience and tolerance of mistreatment. Men are told they deserve special privileges, whereas women are constantly on the brink of being relegated into the wh*re/Bad Woman category, or just the Spinster Abyss of Lost Souls, aka women that everyone hates or ignores because, even though they're not actively doing anything wrong, they're not attractive and servile enough to have their existence noticed via the benefit they provide to a man.
Quote:They want a privileged class of mommy-wife women and an underclass of single-wh*re women, the exact same way conservative men want a privileged class of landowning-leader men and an underclass of worker-soldier men to exploit.
So, you are right that conservative women are sold a fairy tale of a cozy traditional life with a loving-gentleman-husband-supported nuclear family, but you're missing the crucial difference: conservative women do not exploit lesser women, they just enable male exploitation of them, and of themselves. Because conservative women aren't somehow fundamentally immune from exploitation and abuse by some inherent trait - they're experiencing it all the time or told they'll experiemce it violently if they don't appease their oppressors enough. This does not make sense for humans to support for themselves. Purely shitty, selfish people advocate for their benefits only. They want to see themselves on top. Even the men who worship other men do it because they see themselves in their shoes.
Women don't. Power is off-limits to them. Male supremacism by definition doesn't allow any kind of female supremacism, only female "doesn't-deserve-to-be-abused-quite-as-much"-ism. Different tactics need to be used on women, which is why women experience gender-role brainwashing all their life, complete with the expectation of relying on and marrying their oppressor. "Power" for women is not being mistreated quite as much because you're not one of those bad disobedient women who deserve violence, you're a good obedient woman who turns the other cheek when faced with constant abuse and dehumanisation, and that's why your oppressor will take pity on you, as long as you serve him well.
Also, liberal women chase the same kind of approval from men, and will throw other women under the bus in order to get it, such as prostitutes and surrogates (things that religion at least nominally disapproves of, though usually not specifically out of any concern for women's rights). In fact I'm surprised you mentioned conservative women support surrogacy because that's something liberal feminists are notorious for.
I think your characterisation of conservative women's supposedly thought-out motivation misses the mark in several aspects: they don't think "Rape victims need to be silenced because my meal ticket can't land in jail, that'd make me a wh*re", they think "bf/hubby/Nigel really wants this and he should get it because you should turn the other cheek when men want something". They don't think "Women shouldn't work so I can eventually have a cheaper housemaid", they think "Who will feed and clothe the poor Nigels, and the children that said Nigel would let starve to death without the mother's intervention?"
Yes, conservative (and liberal) women are selfish and deluded in a sense that they want to carve out a special little NotLikeOtherWomen place in the patriarchy for themselves, but this isn't the same kind of infantile selfishness that men have where they just want to take, take, take because it's THEIRS and they want it so they should have it because they haven't moved past the development of a 5-year-old. This is a decidedly ideological, virtue-signaling kind of selfishness, and it's completely reliant on appeasing men. You lose the men around these women, and they'll eventually see reason. You lose the men around men, and they'll still keep screaming that they should get a bangmaid because they really really want one and
why can't they have it WAAAAH
Quote:My tone isn't aggressive because I hate wives and mothers. My tone is aggressive because the nasty tone I am typing in right now does not even compare to how nasty the ideology I'm complaining about is.
Despite my disagreement with the characterised logic behind the motivations of conservative women, my god is it good to hear a spade called a spade and not have to walk on eggshells because poor widdle conserwative women might get chased away đ„
Quote:And I regret ever participating in Ovarit discussions and being gentle and sweet and patient because it did not work, these women have 0 interest in female liberation no matter how kind we are so might as well be mean.
Yeah, liberal feminists at least agree on the barest basic bones of women's rights, whereas conservatives will straight up advocate treating women like cattle. It's the difference between debating, say, an uneducated normie on astronomy, versus a Flatearther. Why the fuck would anyone think these women would ever care about women's rights,
especially when the whole reason why they're on Ovarit is to complain about how TIMs look ugly in dresses compared to real women who were made to wear it better đ Why the fuck would you think these people are somehow going to magically convert to feminism, doubly so when challenging them is "being divisive" and "hostile"?
The only thing that treating conservativism with kiddie gloves does is it enables and normalises more conservative rhetoric which attracts more conservatives like flies to shit, and ends up chasing away or straight up banning
actual feminist women who won't stay quiet and walk on eggshells. Like, conservatives don't even agree with the most basic tenets of feminism and yet they're supposed to get coddled and treated as equals in feminist discussions? Actually, not even feminist, just trans. Like what...Not only do they not care about feminism, they're expressly ANTI-feminist! That's several steps above mere ignorance!
