cloven hooves The Personal Is Political General Not even sure where to post this horrifying example of Trump-humping

Not even sure where to post this horrifying example of Trump-humping

Not even sure where to post this horrifying example of Trump-humping

 
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Feb 11 2025, 8:25 AM
#11
For some reason I can't quote reply here (using Firefox on Android or the Samsung Android browser).

That weird downplaying of the harms of restricting/banning abortion and the elevation of the importance of eliminating gender ideology (while not simultaneously calling out the conservative embrace of traditional gender roles) is one of the reasons I have cut down the time I spend on Ovarit and why I'm glad I never started donating. Abortion restrictions/banning kill and injure thousands of women each year. Gender id, as bad as it is, will never see that kind of death/injury toll. If you can seriously say gender id is more important than the physical control over our own bodies and reproduction, you can not call yourself a feminist, radical or otherwise.
eyeswideopen
Feb 11 2025, 8:25 AM #11

For some reason I can't quote reply here (using Firefox on Android or the Samsung Android browser).

That weird downplaying of the harms of restricting/banning abortion and the elevation of the importance of eliminating gender ideology (while not simultaneously calling out the conservative embrace of traditional gender roles) is one of the reasons I have cut down the time I spend on Ovarit and why I'm glad I never started donating. Abortion restrictions/banning kill and injure thousands of women each year. Gender id, as bad as it is, will never see that kind of death/injury toll. If you can seriously say gender id is more important than the physical control over our own bodies and reproduction, you can not call yourself a feminist, radical or otherwise.

Clover
Kozlik's regular account πŸ€πŸ
639
Feb 11 2025, 12:13 PM
#12
Wandering_Feminist56 I saw a comment that stuck with me, it was saying that a lot of users are sanctimoniously arguing from a place of privilege: THEY could afford to place the definition of woman, no matter what else comes with it, over abortion and contraception access. Maybe they're of an age where it personally doesn't matter anymore or some other reason, but being perfectly fine with helping to take away access to reproductive control is imo a massive, absolutely massive betrayal of women.
Yoooooo, that might have been me. πŸ‘€ At least, I definitely remember getting frustrated and plainly stating something like that, at least twice in two separate instances. And I still stand by it. If "trans" is a woman's number one issue in her life, then I'm sorry but she must have quite the privileged life. [1] If "trans" is a woman's number one issue and is why she supported and voted for Trump, then I think that woman definitely has an extremely privileged sheltered life and is absolutely not a fucking feminist ally. [1] This is fucking ridiculous to even have to claim. (I could even go further on this in regards to seeing the privilege in the specific women's topics they focus on that are affected by transgenderism.) [2]

eyeswideopen Abortion restrictions/banning kill and injure thousands of women each year. Gender id, as bad as it is, will never see that kind of death/injury toll. If you can seriously say gender id is more important than the physical control over our own bodies and reproduction, you can not call yourself a feminist, radical or otherwise.
πŸ’― And I was so sick of hostility for pointing this out. PuRiTy SpiRaLs!! GaTeKeEpiNg!! (Listen, do words have meaning or do they fucking not?? If a feminist is anyone who calls themselves a feminist, then why can't a woman be anyone who calls themselves a woman? Rules for thee, but not for me.) Not that it even mattered. I learned that before the election, as soon as I pointed out the actual physical dangers women are going to be put under with a misogynistic forced-birth women-as-incubators administration, the people I'd be arguing against would quietly slink away, only to go pop up and rabble-rouse about the evil woke trans and how Trump is our only hope to save women in some other thread. πŸ™„ Y'all feeling saved, ladies?


Adding "nuance"/more detail in footnotes.

[1] Okay, so there are actually a few valid reasons I would see bringing up trans as the number one issue. Off the top of my head, men in women's jails/prisons and domestic violence shelters. These are valid points to bring up, if you are a woman in jail/prison or are a woman needing a DV shelter. And yet, I do not see the first one (women's prisons) brought up very often, the second brought up a bit more but still is not their target concern from what I can tell. So then the issue I have is, men in these women's spaces is a symptom of a larger problem! There are root problems: terrible prison conditions (that certainly the right-wing does not give a shit about since they do not view prisons as a place for rehabilitation but a place for punishment); and also of the fact women exist in a societal culture where men think they can rape and abuse women! And is the right-wing the party that cares about domestic violence/violence against women? No! Some states won't even let women abort a pregnancy caused by a rapist and even give the rapist "parental rights"! From my view the men in these women's spaces are the sign of a larger problem: systemic misogyny. Does the right-wing really care about misogyny, systemic or otherwise? No!! They don't even give it surface-level discouragement!

Alao, men in women's bathrooms are another point, that is more common to be experienced by many women. This is also valid. And yet again, the problem goes deeper, the problem is male entitlement. And also, I have noticed that the attempt to offer the solution of gender neutral bathrooms, European style where there are individual completely private stalls with full doors and no gaps anywhere and public shared sink/handwashing areas, are met with a tepid response. Which suggests to me they don't care about mutually beneficial solutions to modern gender politics issues, they just want to rant about men in dresses in shittily-designed American bathrooms.

[2] Some of my opinions here might be unpopular/controversial but that's just how it be. There are two areas where men in women's spaces are brought up that reek of sheltered/privileged lives to me and they are: 1.) women's sports and 2.) beauty pageants.

For women's sports, I do think men in women's sports is a serious concern and it causes physical injury to women and is not right. Of course it's not right. But organized sports activities are a recreational activity. Yeah, sometimes they can end up as a career but honestly I view it the same as an actressβ€”it is a career that comes about when "life is good" (generally speaking). There is not a strict demand for such a career. And even non-professionally, girls sports. They are fucking expensive and require committed supportive parents who can afford sports equipment and transportation to and from sporting activities. Idk how many times I need to add various disclaimers in this paragraph that things like girls losing scholarships thanks to entitled boys who have a physical unfair advantage in a sport is completely wrong, and at the same time, am I really supposed to weigh that equally to women dying bleeding out in hospitals because the conservative government in their state declared that a medically necessary abortions to ectopic pregnancies are illegal?! I just... give me a fucking break. (Disclaimer: I will say I am biased here because I am not an athletic person and could not give less of a fuck about sports in general, so make of that what you will.)

And beauty pageants, good fucking god. The few times I have seen news about TIMs win beauty pageants that were posted about in Ovarit, I pointed out how they were rightfully decimating a misogynistic practice and shouldn't exist in the first place. And sometimes I would get responses of "well some women need the money from them so this hurts women." And this shows to me an act of completely missing the forest for the trees and not realizing how utterly degrading and misogynistic these "competitions" are in the first place?! It reminds me of the libfem "well some women feel better wearing makeup" defense of beauty culture. So fucking what?! This does not address the root issue of a society that demeans female people since birth for their "requirement" to have demure, coquette, and beautiful appearances! (Disclaimer: I'm probably biased here too cuz I'm an uggo. :coffee: Joking but not joking.)

In the end, both of these topics I have just ranted about I see a decent amount brought up on Ovarit, especially the sports one, and it's just like... To me... The most excessive of the excess of what transgenderism is doing to women's rights. I'm just saying, if these are the issues women who are anti-trans have... privileged... imo.
Edited Feb 11 2025, 2:18 PM by Clover.

Kozlik's regular member account. πŸ€πŸ
Clover
Kozlik's regular account πŸ€πŸ
Feb 11 2025, 12:13 PM #12

Wandering_Feminist56 I saw a comment that stuck with me, it was saying that a lot of users are sanctimoniously arguing from a place of privilege: THEY could afford to place the definition of woman, no matter what else comes with it, over abortion and contraception access. Maybe they're of an age where it personally doesn't matter anymore or some other reason, but being perfectly fine with helping to take away access to reproductive control is imo a massive, absolutely massive betrayal of women.
Yoooooo, that might have been me. πŸ‘€ At least, I definitely remember getting frustrated and plainly stating something like that, at least twice in two separate instances. And I still stand by it. If "trans" is a woman's number one issue in her life, then I'm sorry but she must have quite the privileged life. [1] If "trans" is a woman's number one issue and is why she supported and voted for Trump, then I think that woman definitely has an extremely privileged sheltered life and is absolutely not a fucking feminist ally. [1] This is fucking ridiculous to even have to claim. (I could even go further on this in regards to seeing the privilege in the specific women's topics they focus on that are affected by transgenderism.) [2]

eyeswideopen Abortion restrictions/banning kill and injure thousands of women each year. Gender id, as bad as it is, will never see that kind of death/injury toll. If you can seriously say gender id is more important than the physical control over our own bodies and reproduction, you can not call yourself a feminist, radical or otherwise.
πŸ’― And I was so sick of hostility for pointing this out. PuRiTy SpiRaLs!! GaTeKeEpiNg!! (Listen, do words have meaning or do they fucking not?? If a feminist is anyone who calls themselves a feminist, then why can't a woman be anyone who calls themselves a woman? Rules for thee, but not for me.) Not that it even mattered. I learned that before the election, as soon as I pointed out the actual physical dangers women are going to be put under with a misogynistic forced-birth women-as-incubators administration, the people I'd be arguing against would quietly slink away, only to go pop up and rabble-rouse about the evil woke trans and how Trump is our only hope to save women in some other thread. πŸ™„ Y'all feeling saved, ladies?


Adding "nuance"/more detail in footnotes.

[1] Okay, so there are actually a few valid reasons I would see bringing up trans as the number one issue. Off the top of my head, men in women's jails/prisons and domestic violence shelters. These are valid points to bring up, if you are a woman in jail/prison or are a woman needing a DV shelter. And yet, I do not see the first one (women's prisons) brought up very often, the second brought up a bit more but still is not their target concern from what I can tell. So then the issue I have is, men in these women's spaces is a symptom of a larger problem! There are root problems: terrible prison conditions (that certainly the right-wing does not give a shit about since they do not view prisons as a place for rehabilitation but a place for punishment); and also of the fact women exist in a societal culture where men think they can rape and abuse women! And is the right-wing the party that cares about domestic violence/violence against women? No! Some states won't even let women abort a pregnancy caused by a rapist and even give the rapist "parental rights"! From my view the men in these women's spaces are the sign of a larger problem: systemic misogyny. Does the right-wing really care about misogyny, systemic or otherwise? No!! They don't even give it surface-level discouragement!

Alao, men in women's bathrooms are another point, that is more common to be experienced by many women. This is also valid. And yet again, the problem goes deeper, the problem is male entitlement. And also, I have noticed that the attempt to offer the solution of gender neutral bathrooms, European style where there are individual completely private stalls with full doors and no gaps anywhere and public shared sink/handwashing areas, are met with a tepid response. Which suggests to me they don't care about mutually beneficial solutions to modern gender politics issues, they just want to rant about men in dresses in shittily-designed American bathrooms.

[2] Some of my opinions here might be unpopular/controversial but that's just how it be. There are two areas where men in women's spaces are brought up that reek of sheltered/privileged lives to me and they are: 1.) women's sports and 2.) beauty pageants.

For women's sports, I do think men in women's sports is a serious concern and it causes physical injury to women and is not right. Of course it's not right. But organized sports activities are a recreational activity. Yeah, sometimes they can end up as a career but honestly I view it the same as an actressβ€”it is a career that comes about when "life is good" (generally speaking). There is not a strict demand for such a career. And even non-professionally, girls sports. They are fucking expensive and require committed supportive parents who can afford sports equipment and transportation to and from sporting activities. Idk how many times I need to add various disclaimers in this paragraph that things like girls losing scholarships thanks to entitled boys who have a physical unfair advantage in a sport is completely wrong, and at the same time, am I really supposed to weigh that equally to women dying bleeding out in hospitals because the conservative government in their state declared that a medically necessary abortions to ectopic pregnancies are illegal?! I just... give me a fucking break. (Disclaimer: I will say I am biased here because I am not an athletic person and could not give less of a fuck about sports in general, so make of that what you will.)

And beauty pageants, good fucking god. The few times I have seen news about TIMs win beauty pageants that were posted about in Ovarit, I pointed out how they were rightfully decimating a misogynistic practice and shouldn't exist in the first place. And sometimes I would get responses of "well some women need the money from them so this hurts women." And this shows to me an act of completely missing the forest for the trees and not realizing how utterly degrading and misogynistic these "competitions" are in the first place?! It reminds me of the libfem "well some women feel better wearing makeup" defense of beauty culture. So fucking what?! This does not address the root issue of a society that demeans female people since birth for their "requirement" to have demure, coquette, and beautiful appearances! (Disclaimer: I'm probably biased here too cuz I'm an uggo. :coffee: Joking but not joking.)

In the end, both of these topics I have just ranted about I see a decent amount brought up on Ovarit, especially the sports one, and it's just like... To me... The most excessive of the excess of what transgenderism is doing to women's rights. I'm just saying, if these are the issues women who are anti-trans have... privileged... imo.


Kozlik's regular member account. πŸ€πŸ

skunk
contrarian formerly known as futurebreedmachine
11
Feb 11 2025, 4:34 PM
#13
(Feb 11 2025, 12:13 PM)Clover
Wandering_Feminist56 I saw a comment that stuck with me, it was saying that a lot of users are sanctimoniously arguing from a place of privilege: THEY could afford to place the definition of woman, no matter what else comes with it, over abortion and contraception access. Maybe they're of an age where it personally doesn't matter anymore or some other reason, but being perfectly fine with helping to take away access to reproductive control is imo a massive, absolutely massive betrayal of women.
Yoooooo, that might have been me. πŸ‘€ At least, I definitely remember getting frustrated and plainly stating something like that, at least twice in two separate instances. And I still stand by it. If "trans" is a woman's number one issue in her life, then I'm sorry but she must have quite the privileged life. [1] If "trans" is a woman's number one issue and is why she supported and voted for Trump, then I think that woman definitely has an extremely privileged sheltered life and is absolutely not a fucking feminist ally. [1] This is fucking ridiculous to even have to claim. (I could even go further on this in regards to seeing the privilege in the specific women's topics they focus on that are affected by transgenderism.) [2]

eyeswideopen Abortion restrictions/banning kill and injure thousands of women each year. Gender id, as bad as it is, will never see that kind of death/injury toll. If you can seriously say gender id is more important than the physical control over our own bodies and reproduction, you can not call yourself a feminist, radical or otherwise.
πŸ’― And I was so sick of hostility for pointing this out. PuRiTy SpiRaLs!! GaTeKeEpiNg!! (Listen, do words have meaning or do they fucking not?? If a feminist is anyone who calls themselves a feminist, then why can't a woman be anyone who calls themselves a woman? Rules for thee, but not for me.) Not that it even mattered. I learned that before the election, as soon as I pointed out the actual physical dangers women are going to be put under with a misogynistic forced-birth women-as-incubators administration, the people I'd be arguing against would quietly slink away, only to go pop up and rabble-rouse about the evil woke trans and how Trump is our only hope to save women in some other thread. πŸ™„ Y'all feeling saved, ladies?


Adding "nuance"/more detail in footnotes.

[1] Okay, so there are actually a few valid reasons I would see bringing up trans as the number one issue. Off the top of my head, men in women's jails/prisons and domestic violence shelters. These are valid points to bring up, if you are a woman in jail/prison or are a woman needing a DV shelter. And yet, I do not see the first one (women's prisons) brought up very often, the second brought up a bit more but still is not their target concern from what I can tell. So then the issue I have is, men in these women's spaces is a symptom of a larger problem! There are root problems: terrible prison conditions (that certainly the right-wing does not give a shit about since they do not view prisons as a place for rehabilitation but a place for punishment); and also of the fact women exist in a societal culture where men think they can rape and abuse women! And is the right-wing the party that cares about domestic violence/violence against women? No! Some states won't even let women abort a pregnancy caused by a rapist and even give the rapist "parental rights"! From my view the men in these women's spaces are the sign of a larger problem: systemic misogyny. Does the right-wing really care about misogyny, systemic or otherwise? No!! They don't even give it surface-level discouragement!

Alao, men in women's bathrooms are another point, that is more common to be experienced by many women. This is also valid. And yet again, the problem goes deeper, the problem is male entitlement. And also, I have noticed that the attempt to offer the solution of gender neutral bathrooms, European style where there are individual completely private stalls with full doors and no gaps anywhere and public shared sink/handwashing areas, are met with a tepid response. Which suggests to me they don't care about mutually beneficial solutions to modern gender politics issues, they just want to rant about men in dresses in shittily-designed American bathrooms.

[2] Some of my opinions here might be unpopular/controversial but that's just how it be. There are two areas where men in women's spaces are brought up that reek of sheltered/privileged lives to me and they are: 1.) women's sports and 2.) beauty pageants.

For women's sports, I do think men in women's sports is a serious concern and it causes physical injury to women and is not right. Of course it's not right. But organized sports activities are a recreational activity. Yeah, sometimes they can end up as a career but honestly I view it the same as an actressβ€”it is a career that comes about when "life is good" (generally speaking). There is not a strict demand for such a career. And even non-professionally, girls sports. They are fucking expensive and require committed supportive parents who can afford sports equipment and transportation to and from sporting activities. Idk how many times I need to add various disclaimers in this paragraph that things like girls losing scholarships thanks to entitled boys who have a physical unfair advantage in a sport is completely wrong, and at the same time, am I really supposed to weigh that equally to women dying bleeding out in hospitals because the conservative government in their state declared that a medically necessary abortions to ectopic pregnancies are illegal?! I just... give me a fucking break. (Disclaimer: I will say I am biased here because I am not an athletic person and could not give less of a fuck about sports in general, so make of that what you will.)

And beauty pageants, good fucking god. The few times I have seen news about TIMs win beauty pageants that were posted about in Ovarit, I pointed out how they were rightfully decimating a misogynistic practice and shouldn't exist in the first place. And sometimes I would get responses of "well some women need the money from them so this hurts women." And this shows to me an act of completely missing the forest for the trees and not realizing how utterly degrading and misogynistic these "competitions" are in the first place?! It reminds me of the libfem "well some women feel better wearing makeup" defense of beauty culture. So fucking what?! This does not address the root issue of a society that demeans female people since birth for their "requirement" to have demure, coquette, and beautiful appearances! (Disclaimer: I'm probably biased here too cuz I'm an uggo. :coffee: Joking but not joking.)

In the end, both of these topics I have just ranted about I see a decent amount brought up on Ovarit, especially the sports one, and it's just like... To me... The most excessive of the excess of what transgenderism is doing to women's rights. I'm just saying, if these are the issues women who are anti-trans have... privileged... imo.

While none of these trans issues are remotely as important to me as a myriad of other more pressing issues for women and I'd *never* vote republican just for that, the sports one hits close to home for me and its not necessarily in the privileged way you might think, though I definitely get where you're thinking comes from.

I grew up in a very poor immigrant family. The only way I could realistically go to college was with scholarships so I worked my ass off for those scholarships. Of course there are academic scholarships but I did get into sports where colleges offer you a good deal of money to go there if you're a good athlete. I guess there's money in sports but anyway. I got into a particularly cheap sport at that that required little to nothing of my parents. Track. And those scholarships I earned by running track allowed me to go to school and is a very large part of how I ended up where I am today, in a successful career with a relatively good life.Β 

I know it's anecdotal but I did also go to school in a very poor area. A bunch of girls from my school were in the same situation as me and also joined a sport and managed to land some scholarships to be able to go to college. So for me, the women's sports thing isn't always necessarily coming from a place of privilege. Sports have long been something poorer people could use to get somewhere. Not necessarily even professionally in sports. I never ran again after college lol. But I did run for money, to pay for a degree and get somewhere further in life than I otherwise could have. Not nearly as many will be affected by this, but it is very important to me because of this. Girls already receive significantly less sport scholarship funds than boys AND are more likely to live in poverty. It can feel like a real kick in the teeth when a high school boy is handed a girls scholarship or a college starts giving a male athlete women's scholarships when he transitions.
skunk
contrarian formerly known as futurebreedmachine
Feb 11 2025, 4:34 PM #13

(Feb 11 2025, 12:13 PM)Clover
Wandering_Feminist56 I saw a comment that stuck with me, it was saying that a lot of users are sanctimoniously arguing from a place of privilege: THEY could afford to place the definition of woman, no matter what else comes with it, over abortion and contraception access. Maybe they're of an age where it personally doesn't matter anymore or some other reason, but being perfectly fine with helping to take away access to reproductive control is imo a massive, absolutely massive betrayal of women.
Yoooooo, that might have been me. πŸ‘€ At least, I definitely remember getting frustrated and plainly stating something like that, at least twice in two separate instances. And I still stand by it. If "trans" is a woman's number one issue in her life, then I'm sorry but she must have quite the privileged life. [1] If "trans" is a woman's number one issue and is why she supported and voted for Trump, then I think that woman definitely has an extremely privileged sheltered life and is absolutely not a fucking feminist ally. [1] This is fucking ridiculous to even have to claim. (I could even go further on this in regards to seeing the privilege in the specific women's topics they focus on that are affected by transgenderism.) [2]

eyeswideopen Abortion restrictions/banning kill and injure thousands of women each year. Gender id, as bad as it is, will never see that kind of death/injury toll. If you can seriously say gender id is more important than the physical control over our own bodies and reproduction, you can not call yourself a feminist, radical or otherwise.
πŸ’― And I was so sick of hostility for pointing this out. PuRiTy SpiRaLs!! GaTeKeEpiNg!! (Listen, do words have meaning or do they fucking not?? If a feminist is anyone who calls themselves a feminist, then why can't a woman be anyone who calls themselves a woman? Rules for thee, but not for me.) Not that it even mattered. I learned that before the election, as soon as I pointed out the actual physical dangers women are going to be put under with a misogynistic forced-birth women-as-incubators administration, the people I'd be arguing against would quietly slink away, only to go pop up and rabble-rouse about the evil woke trans and how Trump is our only hope to save women in some other thread. πŸ™„ Y'all feeling saved, ladies?


Adding "nuance"/more detail in footnotes.

[1] Okay, so there are actually a few valid reasons I would see bringing up trans as the number one issue. Off the top of my head, men in women's jails/prisons and domestic violence shelters. These are valid points to bring up, if you are a woman in jail/prison or are a woman needing a DV shelter. And yet, I do not see the first one (women's prisons) brought up very often, the second brought up a bit more but still is not their target concern from what I can tell. So then the issue I have is, men in these women's spaces is a symptom of a larger problem! There are root problems: terrible prison conditions (that certainly the right-wing does not give a shit about since they do not view prisons as a place for rehabilitation but a place for punishment); and also of the fact women exist in a societal culture where men think they can rape and abuse women! And is the right-wing the party that cares about domestic violence/violence against women? No! Some states won't even let women abort a pregnancy caused by a rapist and even give the rapist "parental rights"! From my view the men in these women's spaces are the sign of a larger problem: systemic misogyny. Does the right-wing really care about misogyny, systemic or otherwise? No!! They don't even give it surface-level discouragement!

Alao, men in women's bathrooms are another point, that is more common to be experienced by many women. This is also valid. And yet again, the problem goes deeper, the problem is male entitlement. And also, I have noticed that the attempt to offer the solution of gender neutral bathrooms, European style where there are individual completely private stalls with full doors and no gaps anywhere and public shared sink/handwashing areas, are met with a tepid response. Which suggests to me they don't care about mutually beneficial solutions to modern gender politics issues, they just want to rant about men in dresses in shittily-designed American bathrooms.

[2] Some of my opinions here might be unpopular/controversial but that's just how it be. There are two areas where men in women's spaces are brought up that reek of sheltered/privileged lives to me and they are: 1.) women's sports and 2.) beauty pageants.

For women's sports, I do think men in women's sports is a serious concern and it causes physical injury to women and is not right. Of course it's not right. But organized sports activities are a recreational activity. Yeah, sometimes they can end up as a career but honestly I view it the same as an actressβ€”it is a career that comes about when "life is good" (generally speaking). There is not a strict demand for such a career. And even non-professionally, girls sports. They are fucking expensive and require committed supportive parents who can afford sports equipment and transportation to and from sporting activities. Idk how many times I need to add various disclaimers in this paragraph that things like girls losing scholarships thanks to entitled boys who have a physical unfair advantage in a sport is completely wrong, and at the same time, am I really supposed to weigh that equally to women dying bleeding out in hospitals because the conservative government in their state declared that a medically necessary abortions to ectopic pregnancies are illegal?! I just... give me a fucking break. (Disclaimer: I will say I am biased here because I am not an athletic person and could not give less of a fuck about sports in general, so make of that what you will.)

And beauty pageants, good fucking god. The few times I have seen news about TIMs win beauty pageants that were posted about in Ovarit, I pointed out how they were rightfully decimating a misogynistic practice and shouldn't exist in the first place. And sometimes I would get responses of "well some women need the money from them so this hurts women." And this shows to me an act of completely missing the forest for the trees and not realizing how utterly degrading and misogynistic these "competitions" are in the first place?! It reminds me of the libfem "well some women feel better wearing makeup" defense of beauty culture. So fucking what?! This does not address the root issue of a society that demeans female people since birth for their "requirement" to have demure, coquette, and beautiful appearances! (Disclaimer: I'm probably biased here too cuz I'm an uggo. :coffee: Joking but not joking.)

In the end, both of these topics I have just ranted about I see a decent amount brought up on Ovarit, especially the sports one, and it's just like... To me... The most excessive of the excess of what transgenderism is doing to women's rights. I'm just saying, if these are the issues women who are anti-trans have... privileged... imo.

While none of these trans issues are remotely as important to me as a myriad of other more pressing issues for women and I'd *never* vote republican just for that, the sports one hits close to home for me and its not necessarily in the privileged way you might think, though I definitely get where you're thinking comes from.

I grew up in a very poor immigrant family. The only way I could realistically go to college was with scholarships so I worked my ass off for those scholarships. Of course there are academic scholarships but I did get into sports where colleges offer you a good deal of money to go there if you're a good athlete. I guess there's money in sports but anyway. I got into a particularly cheap sport at that that required little to nothing of my parents. Track. And those scholarships I earned by running track allowed me to go to school and is a very large part of how I ended up where I am today, in a successful career with a relatively good life.Β 

I know it's anecdotal but I did also go to school in a very poor area. A bunch of girls from my school were in the same situation as me and also joined a sport and managed to land some scholarships to be able to go to college. So for me, the women's sports thing isn't always necessarily coming from a place of privilege. Sports have long been something poorer people could use to get somewhere. Not necessarily even professionally in sports. I never ran again after college lol. But I did run for money, to pay for a degree and get somewhere further in life than I otherwise could have. Not nearly as many will be affected by this, but it is very important to me because of this. Girls already receive significantly less sport scholarship funds than boys AND are more likely to live in poverty. It can feel like a real kick in the teeth when a high school boy is handed a girls scholarship or a college starts giving a male athlete women's scholarships when he transitions.

Clover
Kozlik's regular account πŸ€πŸ
639
Feb 11 2025, 5:55 PM
#14
(Feb 11 2025, 4:34 PM)skunk
Past quotes
(Feb 11 2025, 12:13 PM)Clover
Wandering_Feminist56 I saw a comment that stuck with me, it was saying that a lot of users are sanctimoniously arguing from a place of privilege: THEY could afford to place the definition of woman, no matter what else comes with it, over abortion and contraception access. Maybe they're of an age where it personally doesn't matter anymore or some other reason, but being perfectly fine with helping to take away access to reproductive control is imo a massive, absolutely massive betrayal of women.
Yoooooo, that might have been me. πŸ‘€ At least, I definitely remember getting frustrated and plainly stating something like that, at least twice in two separate instances. And I still stand by it. If "trans" is a woman's number one issue in her life, then I'm sorry but she must have quite the privileged life. [1] If "trans" is a woman's number one issue and is why she supported and voted for Trump, then I think that woman definitely has an extremely privileged sheltered life and is absolutely not a fucking feminist ally. [1] This is fucking ridiculous to even have to claim. (I could even go further on this in regards to seeing the privilege in the specific women's topics they focus on that are affected by transgenderism.) [2]

eyeswideopen Abortion restrictions/banning kill and injure thousands of women each year. Gender id, as bad as it is, will never see that kind of death/injury toll. If you can seriously say gender id is more important than the physical control over our own bodies and reproduction, you can not call yourself a feminist, radical or otherwise.
πŸ’― And I was so sick of hostility for pointing this out. PuRiTy SpiRaLs!! GaTeKeEpiNg!! (Listen, do words have meaning or do they fucking not?? If a feminist is anyone who calls themselves a feminist, then why can't a woman be anyone who calls themselves a woman? Rules for thee, but not for me.) Not that it even mattered. I learned that before the election, as soon as I pointed out the actual physical dangers women are going to be put under with a misogynistic forced-birth women-as-incubators administration, the people I'd be arguing against would quietly slink away, only to go pop up and rabble-rouse about the evil woke trans and how Trump is our only hope to save women in some other thread. πŸ™„ Y'all feeling saved, ladies?


Adding "nuance"/more detail in footnotes.

[1] Okay, so there are actually a few valid reasons I would see bringing up trans as the number one issue. Off the top of my head, men in women's jails/prisons and domestic violence shelters. These are valid points to bring up, if you are a woman in jail/prison or are a woman needing a DV shelter. And yet, I do not see the first one (women's prisons) brought up very often, the second brought up a bit more but still is not their target concern from what I can tell. So then the issue I have is, men in these women's spaces is a symptom of a larger problem! There are root problems: terrible prison conditions (that certainly the right-wing does not give a shit about since they do not view prisons as a place for rehabilitation but a place for punishment); and also of the fact women exist in a societal culture where men think they can rape and abuse women! And is the right-wing the party that cares about domestic violence/violence against women? No! Some states won't even let women abort a pregnancy caused by a rapist and even give the rapist "parental rights"! From my view the men in these women's spaces are the sign of a larger problem: systemic misogyny. Does the right-wing really care about misogyny, systemic or otherwise? No!! They don't even give it surface-level discouragement!

Alao, men in women's bathrooms are another point, that is more common to be experienced by many women. This is also valid. And yet again, the problem goes deeper, the problem is male entitlement. And also, I have noticed that the attempt to offer the solution of gender neutral bathrooms, European style where there are individual completely private stalls with full doors and no gaps anywhere and public shared sink/handwashing areas, are met with a tepid response. Which suggests to me they don't care about mutually beneficial solutions to modern gender politics issues, they just want to rant about men in dresses in shittily-designed American bathrooms.

[2] Some of my opinions here might be unpopular/controversial but that's just how it be. There are two areas where men in women's spaces are brought up that reek of sheltered/privileged lives to me and they are: 1.) women's sports and 2.) beauty pageants.

For women's sports, I do think men in women's sports is a serious concern and it causes physical injury to women and is not right. Of course it's not right. But organized sports activities are a recreational activity. Yeah, sometimes they can end up as a career but honestly I view it the same as an actressβ€”it is a career that comes about when "life is good" (generally speaking). There is not a strict demand for such a career. And even non-professionally, girls sports. They are fucking expensive and require committed supportive parents who can afford sports equipment and transportation to and from sporting activities. Idk how many times I need to add various disclaimers in this paragraph that things like girls losing scholarships thanks to entitled boys who have a physical unfair advantage in a sport is completely wrong, and at the same time, am I really supposed to weigh that equally to women dying bleeding out in hospitals because the conservative government in their state declared that a medically necessary abortions to ectopic pregnancies are illegal?! I just... give me a fucking break. (Disclaimer: I will say I am biased here because I am not an athletic person and could not give less of a fuck about sports in general, so make of that what you will.)

And beauty pageants, good fucking god. The few times I have seen news about TIMs win beauty pageants that were posted about in Ovarit, I pointed out how they were rightfully decimating a misogynistic practice and shouldn't exist in the first place. And sometimes I would get responses of "well some women need the money from them so this hurts women." And this shows to me an act of completely missing the forest for the trees and not realizing how utterly degrading and misogynistic these "competitions" are in the first place?! It reminds me of the libfem "well some women feel better wearing makeup" defense of beauty culture. So fucking what?! This does not address the root issue of a society that demeans female people since birth for their "requirement" to have demure, coquette, and beautiful appearances! (Disclaimer: I'm probably biased here too cuz I'm an uggo. :coffee: Joking but not joking.)

In the end, both of these topics I have just ranted about I see a decent amount brought up on Ovarit, especially the sports one, and it's just like... To me... The most excessive of the excess of what transgenderism is doing to women's rights. I'm just saying, if these are the issues women who are anti-trans have... privileged... imo.


While none of these trans issues are remotely as important to me as a myriad of other more pressing issues for women and I'd *never* vote republican just for that, the sports one hits close to home for me and its not necessarily in the privileged way you might think, though I definitely get where you're thinking comes from.

I grew up in a very poor immigrant family. The only way I could realistically go to college was with scholarships so I worked my ass off for those scholarships. Of course there are academic scholarships but I did get into sports where colleges offer you a good deal of money to go there if you're a good athlete. I guess there's money in sports but anyway. I got into a particularly cheap sport at that that required little to nothing of my parents. Track. And those scholarships I earned by running track allowed me to go to school and is a very large part of how I ended up where I am today, in a successful career with a relatively good life.Β 

I know it's anecdotal but I did also go to school in a very poor area. A bunch of girls from my school were in the same situation as me and also joined a sport and managed to land some scholarships to be able to go to college. So for me, the women's sports thing isn't always necessarily coming from a place of privilege. Sports have long been something poorer people could use to get somewhere. Not necessarily even professionally in sports. I never ran again after college lol. But I did run for money, to pay for a degree and get somewhere further in life than I otherwise could have. Not nearly as many will be affected by this, but it is very important to me because of this. Girls already receive significantly less sport scholarship funds than boys AND are more likely to live in poverty. It can feel like a real kick in the teeth when a high school boy is handed a girls scholarship or a college starts giving a male athlete women's scholarships when he transitions.

I appreciate your input and perspective, especially since I know I'm a "I don't care about sports" person and I know that taints how much empathy I end up giving. While writing my comment, I did think about girls who use sports scholarships to get out of poverty and/or achieve higher education. And one part of me thinks that is "awesome" in the sense that I admire those girls for working hard in athletics to achieve impressive feats and land scholarships. But another part of me realizes and is frustrated with the fact you and all those other girls should not have had to do so in order to pursue higher education! And in that sense, it wraps back to my issue with the defense of beauty pageants β€” "they help some women." But the root issue in both is why should women not be able to pursue higher education or get money to support their lives without needing to "prove themselves worthy" in either the athletic sense (which is honestly at least healthy and good to be into athletics, I don't deny this) or the sexist "performative femininity" sense? And then of course the fact that girls/women who are not physically able and/or athletic or conventionally beautiful do not have such options. (Of course, that is just how life be, we work with what we are given.)

Interestingly enough, I also came from a low-income immigrant family and I had a bit of a different experience with sports which soured my view on the topic.

middle school volleyball story lolIn middle school, we had to take PE. Of course, I hated it. I did the bare minimum effort. They make us try all sorts of sports, and we play with our fellow classmates. I remember one time we had to try volleyball. On my team was a relatively popular athletic girl, who was involved in our school's sports clubs. So she was good, she knew how to play, and tried to instruct/coach us as we played since she had that competitive personality lol. I actually had some fun playing that volleyball. In one key instance, the ball was heading towards me and it seemed to her based on my position that the chances of the ball getting over to their side within bounds was not going to happen, so she told us/me it's okay to give up and not worry about volleying it back. But at that point, I was having fun in the game and I felt like I could do it and I did end up volleying the ball back just right that it stayed within bounds and the opponent team couldn't volley it back. She was so excited and gave me double high five. :catblush: I felt happy because yay teamwork. And I assume that's how people feel when they find a sport they like and get to work together. That day, I told my friend (who was also playing on my team) that I was interested in signing up for volleyball (ridiculously unheard of and uncharacteristic of video-game-loving lazy couchpotato me) and she was encouraging and said she'd sign up too. Yay. I told the coach about my interest aaannddd... he told me I needed to get a physical. I asked if that was something the school provided? He said no, that I'd have to go to the doctor and get a physical. Well, being from a low-income immigrant family, we did not have a doctor, because we did not go to the hospitals or doctors, because we did not have insurance (before Obamacare), and because we did not have money. So there ended my athletics experience. Paywalled. Not even by sports equipment, but just by the fact our fucked up country is a for-profit healthcare nightmare and it costs money for a physical.


So from my perspective and limited personal experience, sports to me always seemed like a "privileged" thing. But yeah, I understand there are different circumstances and I acknowledge that many young low-income people can use sports to prosper. And so yes, I definitely agree it is totally fucked up when I see/read/hear about TIMs stealing girl's spaces on sporting teams and in the top three spaces and so on. It is the same anger I feel when TIMs steal non-athletic scholarships and spaces as well (fucking TIMs pretending to be "women in STEM"... As a woman in STEM that really pisses me off). So I completely understand the unfairness and it is worth pointing out and fighting it. Of course, it is a part of women's rights to fair representation and just fucking basic biological accuracy in the definition of woman/girl, which is extremely important when it comes to physical activities like sports!

I just think that these concerns about men in women's sports or women's competitions reveal to me a deeper problem of why are women required to do these things in order to be able to have things I think everyone should have: ability to pursue higher education, and a safe place to live, healthy food, etc. And that the right-wing anti-trans solutions fix the surface level problem; they "stop the bleeding", but they don't heal the wound.

Kozlik's regular member account. πŸ€πŸ
Clover
Kozlik's regular account πŸ€πŸ
Feb 11 2025, 5:55 PM #14

(Feb 11 2025, 4:34 PM)skunk
Past quotes
(Feb 11 2025, 12:13 PM)Clover
Wandering_Feminist56 I saw a comment that stuck with me, it was saying that a lot of users are sanctimoniously arguing from a place of privilege: THEY could afford to place the definition of woman, no matter what else comes with it, over abortion and contraception access. Maybe they're of an age where it personally doesn't matter anymore or some other reason, but being perfectly fine with helping to take away access to reproductive control is imo a massive, absolutely massive betrayal of women.
Yoooooo, that might have been me. πŸ‘€ At least, I definitely remember getting frustrated and plainly stating something like that, at least twice in two separate instances. And I still stand by it. If "trans" is a woman's number one issue in her life, then I'm sorry but she must have quite the privileged life. [1] If "trans" is a woman's number one issue and is why she supported and voted for Trump, then I think that woman definitely has an extremely privileged sheltered life and is absolutely not a fucking feminist ally. [1] This is fucking ridiculous to even have to claim. (I could even go further on this in regards to seeing the privilege in the specific women's topics they focus on that are affected by transgenderism.) [2]

eyeswideopen Abortion restrictions/banning kill and injure thousands of women each year. Gender id, as bad as it is, will never see that kind of death/injury toll. If you can seriously say gender id is more important than the physical control over our own bodies and reproduction, you can not call yourself a feminist, radical or otherwise.
πŸ’― And I was so sick of hostility for pointing this out. PuRiTy SpiRaLs!! GaTeKeEpiNg!! (Listen, do words have meaning or do they fucking not?? If a feminist is anyone who calls themselves a feminist, then why can't a woman be anyone who calls themselves a woman? Rules for thee, but not for me.) Not that it even mattered. I learned that before the election, as soon as I pointed out the actual physical dangers women are going to be put under with a misogynistic forced-birth women-as-incubators administration, the people I'd be arguing against would quietly slink away, only to go pop up and rabble-rouse about the evil woke trans and how Trump is our only hope to save women in some other thread. πŸ™„ Y'all feeling saved, ladies?


Adding "nuance"/more detail in footnotes.

[1] Okay, so there are actually a few valid reasons I would see bringing up trans as the number one issue. Off the top of my head, men in women's jails/prisons and domestic violence shelters. These are valid points to bring up, if you are a woman in jail/prison or are a woman needing a DV shelter. And yet, I do not see the first one (women's prisons) brought up very often, the second brought up a bit more but still is not their target concern from what I can tell. So then the issue I have is, men in these women's spaces is a symptom of a larger problem! There are root problems: terrible prison conditions (that certainly the right-wing does not give a shit about since they do not view prisons as a place for rehabilitation but a place for punishment); and also of the fact women exist in a societal culture where men think they can rape and abuse women! And is the right-wing the party that cares about domestic violence/violence against women? No! Some states won't even let women abort a pregnancy caused by a rapist and even give the rapist "parental rights"! From my view the men in these women's spaces are the sign of a larger problem: systemic misogyny. Does the right-wing really care about misogyny, systemic or otherwise? No!! They don't even give it surface-level discouragement!

Alao, men in women's bathrooms are another point, that is more common to be experienced by many women. This is also valid. And yet again, the problem goes deeper, the problem is male entitlement. And also, I have noticed that the attempt to offer the solution of gender neutral bathrooms, European style where there are individual completely private stalls with full doors and no gaps anywhere and public shared sink/handwashing areas, are met with a tepid response. Which suggests to me they don't care about mutually beneficial solutions to modern gender politics issues, they just want to rant about men in dresses in shittily-designed American bathrooms.

[2] Some of my opinions here might be unpopular/controversial but that's just how it be. There are two areas where men in women's spaces are brought up that reek of sheltered/privileged lives to me and they are: 1.) women's sports and 2.) beauty pageants.

For women's sports, I do think men in women's sports is a serious concern and it causes physical injury to women and is not right. Of course it's not right. But organized sports activities are a recreational activity. Yeah, sometimes they can end up as a career but honestly I view it the same as an actressβ€”it is a career that comes about when "life is good" (generally speaking). There is not a strict demand for such a career. And even non-professionally, girls sports. They are fucking expensive and require committed supportive parents who can afford sports equipment and transportation to and from sporting activities. Idk how many times I need to add various disclaimers in this paragraph that things like girls losing scholarships thanks to entitled boys who have a physical unfair advantage in a sport is completely wrong, and at the same time, am I really supposed to weigh that equally to women dying bleeding out in hospitals because the conservative government in their state declared that a medically necessary abortions to ectopic pregnancies are illegal?! I just... give me a fucking break. (Disclaimer: I will say I am biased here because I am not an athletic person and could not give less of a fuck about sports in general, so make of that what you will.)

And beauty pageants, good fucking god. The few times I have seen news about TIMs win beauty pageants that were posted about in Ovarit, I pointed out how they were rightfully decimating a misogynistic practice and shouldn't exist in the first place. And sometimes I would get responses of "well some women need the money from them so this hurts women." And this shows to me an act of completely missing the forest for the trees and not realizing how utterly degrading and misogynistic these "competitions" are in the first place?! It reminds me of the libfem "well some women feel better wearing makeup" defense of beauty culture. So fucking what?! This does not address the root issue of a society that demeans female people since birth for their "requirement" to have demure, coquette, and beautiful appearances! (Disclaimer: I'm probably biased here too cuz I'm an uggo. :coffee: Joking but not joking.)

In the end, both of these topics I have just ranted about I see a decent amount brought up on Ovarit, especially the sports one, and it's just like... To me... The most excessive of the excess of what transgenderism is doing to women's rights. I'm just saying, if these are the issues women who are anti-trans have... privileged... imo.


While none of these trans issues are remotely as important to me as a myriad of other more pressing issues for women and I'd *never* vote republican just for that, the sports one hits close to home for me and its not necessarily in the privileged way you might think, though I definitely get where you're thinking comes from.

I grew up in a very poor immigrant family. The only way I could realistically go to college was with scholarships so I worked my ass off for those scholarships. Of course there are academic scholarships but I did get into sports where colleges offer you a good deal of money to go there if you're a good athlete. I guess there's money in sports but anyway. I got into a particularly cheap sport at that that required little to nothing of my parents. Track. And those scholarships I earned by running track allowed me to go to school and is a very large part of how I ended up where I am today, in a successful career with a relatively good life.Β 

I know it's anecdotal but I did also go to school in a very poor area. A bunch of girls from my school were in the same situation as me and also joined a sport and managed to land some scholarships to be able to go to college. So for me, the women's sports thing isn't always necessarily coming from a place of privilege. Sports have long been something poorer people could use to get somewhere. Not necessarily even professionally in sports. I never ran again after college lol. But I did run for money, to pay for a degree and get somewhere further in life than I otherwise could have. Not nearly as many will be affected by this, but it is very important to me because of this. Girls already receive significantly less sport scholarship funds than boys AND are more likely to live in poverty. It can feel like a real kick in the teeth when a high school boy is handed a girls scholarship or a college starts giving a male athlete women's scholarships when he transitions.

I appreciate your input and perspective, especially since I know I'm a "I don't care about sports" person and I know that taints how much empathy I end up giving. While writing my comment, I did think about girls who use sports scholarships to get out of poverty and/or achieve higher education. And one part of me thinks that is "awesome" in the sense that I admire those girls for working hard in athletics to achieve impressive feats and land scholarships. But another part of me realizes and is frustrated with the fact you and all those other girls should not have had to do so in order to pursue higher education! And in that sense, it wraps back to my issue with the defense of beauty pageants β€” "they help some women." But the root issue in both is why should women not be able to pursue higher education or get money to support their lives without needing to "prove themselves worthy" in either the athletic sense (which is honestly at least healthy and good to be into athletics, I don't deny this) or the sexist "performative femininity" sense? And then of course the fact that girls/women who are not physically able and/or athletic or conventionally beautiful do not have such options. (Of course, that is just how life be, we work with what we are given.)

Interestingly enough, I also came from a low-income immigrant family and I had a bit of a different experience with sports which soured my view on the topic.

middle school volleyball story lolIn middle school, we had to take PE. Of course, I hated it. I did the bare minimum effort. They make us try all sorts of sports, and we play with our fellow classmates. I remember one time we had to try volleyball. On my team was a relatively popular athletic girl, who was involved in our school's sports clubs. So she was good, she knew how to play, and tried to instruct/coach us as we played since she had that competitive personality lol. I actually had some fun playing that volleyball. In one key instance, the ball was heading towards me and it seemed to her based on my position that the chances of the ball getting over to their side within bounds was not going to happen, so she told us/me it's okay to give up and not worry about volleying it back. But at that point, I was having fun in the game and I felt like I could do it and I did end up volleying the ball back just right that it stayed within bounds and the opponent team couldn't volley it back. She was so excited and gave me double high five. :catblush: I felt happy because yay teamwork. And I assume that's how people feel when they find a sport they like and get to work together. That day, I told my friend (who was also playing on my team) that I was interested in signing up for volleyball (ridiculously unheard of and uncharacteristic of video-game-loving lazy couchpotato me) and she was encouraging and said she'd sign up too. Yay. I told the coach about my interest aaannddd... he told me I needed to get a physical. I asked if that was something the school provided? He said no, that I'd have to go to the doctor and get a physical. Well, being from a low-income immigrant family, we did not have a doctor, because we did not go to the hospitals or doctors, because we did not have insurance (before Obamacare), and because we did not have money. So there ended my athletics experience. Paywalled. Not even by sports equipment, but just by the fact our fucked up country is a for-profit healthcare nightmare and it costs money for a physical.


So from my perspective and limited personal experience, sports to me always seemed like a "privileged" thing. But yeah, I understand there are different circumstances and I acknowledge that many young low-income people can use sports to prosper. And so yes, I definitely agree it is totally fucked up when I see/read/hear about TIMs stealing girl's spaces on sporting teams and in the top three spaces and so on. It is the same anger I feel when TIMs steal non-athletic scholarships and spaces as well (fucking TIMs pretending to be "women in STEM"... As a woman in STEM that really pisses me off). So I completely understand the unfairness and it is worth pointing out and fighting it. Of course, it is a part of women's rights to fair representation and just fucking basic biological accuracy in the definition of woman/girl, which is extremely important when it comes to physical activities like sports!

I just think that these concerns about men in women's sports or women's competitions reveal to me a deeper problem of why are women required to do these things in order to be able to have things I think everyone should have: ability to pursue higher education, and a safe place to live, healthy food, etc. And that the right-wing anti-trans solutions fix the surface level problem; they "stop the bleeding", but they don't heal the wound.


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