Healing women from femininity

YesYourNigel

227

Jun 18 2025, 11:10 AM

Most feminism seems utterly toothless when it comes to truly tackling the damage that femininity does to women. The damage is acknowledged, yes - there are programs that seek to encourage women into traditionally male fields and interests, as well as criticism of beauty standards and gender roles for women. But nothing ever really gets done about it. It is always packaged in a thick cover of "It's only bad if you're forced into it, but if you willingly partake, then YASS QUEEN SLAYYY 💅". Despite acknowledging how society brainwashes women into femininity, foregoing it is still seen as solely the domain of a minority of "weird" individuals who have the excuse of never getting fully sucked into them in the first place (due to being some variant of tomboy/gay/nerdy/autistic). Any other women I guess are just destined to be exploited and suffer.

I wish more resources taught women how to dump all aspects of female gender roles and move towards living as a human being that maximises their own abilities, independence and dignity. I think trans can give this to women in the form of an excuse, and a goal in the form of masculine gender roles, rather than the vague "follow your heart" and "do what you truly want", which just ends up with people following the line of least resistance, because unsurprisingly that's what's the least stressful for them. I think (partially) emulating masculinity can help women, but not via trans means where women's grievances with a patriarchal system are medicalised, dismissed as inborn "boysouls", and rely on maintaining the unquestioned cognitive dissonance between one's reality as a subhuman, and the roleplay identity of a superior man.

Edited Jun 19 2025, 4:56 PM by YesYourNigel.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

YesYourNigel

Jun 18 2025, 11:10 AM #1

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

Clover
Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

964

Jun 18 2025, 5:50 PM

I think it takes little steps to get there. Like, for example, the programs that encourage women to get into male-dominated careers. I think helping women achieve financial Independence is a good way to go about having them heal from femininity, because this means being able to have the funds to tell femininity to fuck off.

Sadly any avenue is really an uphill battle. Like, for example, a woman can be in a well paying male-dominated career, but still feel like she needs to perform femininity in order to be "acceptable" in the workplace. Or a woman can go to therapy to resolve mental health issues like depression and anxiety that are rooted in living in a patriarchy, but might end up with a handmaiden therapist or some gender woowoo one who thinks she has a "boysoul" for being fed up with systemic misogyny.

I think a big part would be women forming female friendships with gender non-conforming women, but I'm not sure if that would guarantee healing from femininity either. It would provide them a woman to feel safe with when healing from femininity, but that itself does not mean they will do so. The gender non-conforming female friend could just be viewed as an "oddity" in her friend group.

I don't know the answer. :( I think age can help women recover from femininity. I'm reminded of Hags, where I think there were three f's in what "being a woman is" to society and that was "feminine, fertile, and fuckable." The "fertile" one was associated with age, and the trope of how women become invisible and "useless" once they age past their "prime." I remember reading a Guardian article about an elder woman who utilized her "invisibleness" to do graffiti lol.

I think in the end, in order to have women heal from femininity, women need to lessen their dependence on men. The male oppressor class is the reason women feel obligated to perform femininity in the first place. And for women to lessen their dependence on men requires a lot of societal changes.

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Clover

Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

Jun 18 2025, 5:50 PM #2

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Persephone
Trapped in the land of the dead 🪷

Jun 19 2025, 4:12 PM

Holy shit, I thought I was the only one who thought this way. Femininity IS a leash and no one is immune to propaganda.

Sometimes I try to do the down and dirty work of helping the insecure teenage girls in places like TGSG get over damaging beliefs (like "every woman has a feminine side they have to get in touch with" and "glow-ups are a positive and productive thing to seek" - Ick!) but it's an absolutely thankless job and for every comment with a positive response there's another three posts of brainwashed girls with the same problem.

We need some kind of organised propaganda campaign I swear. Women are waking up but so many need that little push to realise it's ALL bullshit.

Persephone

Trapped in the land of the dead 🪷

Jun 19 2025, 4:12 PM #3

YesYourNigel

227

Jun 22 2025, 1:26 PM

Quote:I think in the end, in order to have women heal from femininity, women need to lessen their dependence on men

That seems to be putting the cart before the horse.
In order to even be able to see themselves independently from men, women first need to reject femininity and obtain the traits and abilities that have been denied for them, but which increase a person's independence, confidence and well-being. How can we expect feminine women to not fall into dependent relationships with men when the whole crux of femininity revolves around obtaining patriarchal approval?

Quote:a woman can be in a well paying male-dominated career, but still feel like she needs to perform femininity in order to be "acceptable" in the workplace.

But that femininity will then get her sexually harassed and also dismissed as just a dumb bimbo. That is why women can't win. Gender conformity is sold to women as a way to win the patriarchy when in reality it's just used to discredit them further.

Quote:Or a woman can go to therapy to resolve mental health issues like depression and anxiety that are rooted in living in a patriarchy, but might end up with a handmaiden therapist or some gender woowoo one who thinks she has a "boysoul" for being fed up with systemic misogyny

I mean frankly, all of therapy seems unsuited to address women's specific trauma in a patriarchal society. That's also why I think therapy for trans people is not a solution at the moment - it just seems woefully bad at addressing the extent of gender roles they have to contend with and empowering the inidividual against them. I don't think anyone can heal from this "apolitically" while ignoring just how bad gender roles are for us.

Quote:I think in the end, in order to have women heal from femininity, women need to lessen their dependence on men. The male oppressor class is the reason women feel obligated to perform femininity in the first place.

How will women lessen their dependence on men? By gaining practical skills where they don't have to rely on men, and a sense of identity that intentionally removes men from the equation and focuses on their own well-being. Yes, they will still need to deal with men because women can't fix the patriarchy, but they can at least minimise it and protect themselves as much as possible, as well as aim for their best as human beings as possible.

Yes, men are the reason women are pushed into femininity, so the best that women can do with the limited options given to them is to not willingly agree to patriarchal dynamics that inevitably end up hurting them. The onus is still on men to stop being misogynistic, but women need to build awareness where they refuse to play the game.

Quote:I think a big part would be women forming female friendships with gender non-conforming women, but I'm not sure if that would guarantee healing from femininity either.

It's difficult to think of a way to make GNC attractive to women, because the very existence of authoritative and notable GNC women is paradoxical or threatening, so there's always the expectations to push "to each their own" and to prove that the GNC woman isn't catty and judgemental.

I think several things really get in the way of making GNC relatable to women:

The bioessentialist "excuses" for gender nonconformity - if you weren't born a tomboy, you're obliged to simply embrace femininity and be normal
The constant attempts to pit women against each other by labeling feminine or unfeminine women as "privleged" in a patriarchal system, and grouping women from an opposing group into the oppressor class (which just...doesn't make sense? That's not how patriarchy works?)
The invisibility and lack of positive reinforcement for "masculinity" in women, and the only positive reinforcement being for overly sensitive feminine women with a persecution complex (the kind that things a boobjob is empowering just because some men make fun of it)
The scary realisation of just how subject we are to societal brainwashing, even on a purely subconscious level and that the society that's raised you intentionally groomed you into being a sex object.

Quote:I think age can help women recover from femininity.

Yes, but unfortunately age brings invisibility, where you're again walked over and shut down by everyone around you, and you don't even get the illusion that your appearance can make people care about you. Young women sense this and think that getting attention by appealing to patriarchal beauty norms is the way out. Older women often have the experience of being burnt too many times and running out of fucks to give.

Edited Jun 22 2025, 1:30 PM by YesYourNigel.

YesYourNigel

Jun 22 2025, 1:26 PM #4

Quote:I think in the end, in order to have women heal from femininity, women need to lessen their dependence on men

Quote:a woman can be in a well paying male-dominated career, but still feel like she needs to perform femininity in order to be "acceptable" in the workplace.

Quote:Or a woman can go to therapy to resolve mental health issues like depression and anxiety that are rooted in living in a patriarchy, but might end up with a handmaiden therapist or some gender woowoo one who thinks she has a "boysoul" for being fed up with systemic misogyny

Quote:I think in the end, in order to have women heal from femininity, women need to lessen their dependence on men. The male oppressor class is the reason women feel obligated to perform femininity in the first place.

Quote:I think a big part would be women forming female friendships with gender non-conforming women, but I'm not sure if that would guarantee healing from femininity either.

The bioessentialist "excuses" for gender nonconformity - if you weren't born a tomboy, you're obliged to simply embrace femininity and be normal
The constant attempts to pit women against each other by labeling feminine or unfeminine women as "privleged" in a patriarchal system, and grouping women from an opposing group into the oppressor class (which just...doesn't make sense? That's not how patriarchy works?)
The invisibility and lack of positive reinforcement for "masculinity" in women, and the only positive reinforcement being for overly sensitive feminine women with a persecution complex (the kind that things a boobjob is empowering just because some men make fun of it)
The scary realisation of just how subject we are to societal brainwashing, even on a purely subconscious level and that the society that's raised you intentionally groomed you into being a sex object.

Quote:I think age can help women recover from femininity.

YesYourNigel

227

Jun 22 2025, 1:42 PM

(Jun 19 2025, 4:12 PM)Persephone Holy shit, I thought I was the only one who thought this way. Femininity IS a leash and no one is immune to propaganda.

That's the first step: accept we've all been screwed over by society instead of competing over who's more virtuous. We need to do something about it, we need to heal and make shit right. No-one is immune. I thankfully never internalised beauty norms for myself, but there are some other aspects of female socialisation that were inevitable for me, and it's a constant learning process of noticing just how subtle and insidious they are.

Quote:Sometimes I try to do the down and dirty work of helping the insecure teenage girls in places like TGSG get over damaging beliefs but it's an absolutely thankless job and for every comment with a positive response there's another three posts of brainwashed girls with the same problem.

You are doing god's work there, but I can imagine it feels hopeless against mountains of media and people in their surroundings telling them the opposite every day. I wish there was a campaign pairing girls with older women who have moved past gender insecurities, and also who can teach them valuable and empowering skills. I absolutely think female people need practical, useful skills in their life that can lead to a sense of control and power so they don't have to rely on femininity (most apparent in beauty standards, but also involves things like avoidance of masculine practical skills and learned helplessness) to fuel their self-confidence. If you just tell them beauty standards are bad, they don't really know what to replace it with and what to strive towards. You either end up with women aiming for the very naive "everyone can be beautiful (with enough makeup on)!" or transitioning, both of which just repurpose women's obsession with their appearance.

Quote:We need some kind of organised propaganda campaign I swear. Women are waking up but so many need that little push to realise it's ALL bullshit.

Women need those toxic dudebro "hit the gym and get rich" podcasts, instead of yet another self-help book about being kind and understanding and vulnerable.

They need 4B except for femininity. There was an attempt to have 4B involve gender nonconforming behaviour like shaving off one's long hair, and unsurprisingly it didn't catch on. Beauty norms are such a fundamental, primary aspect of female self-worth that it feels impossible for women to let them go.

Edited Jun 24 2025, 3:39 PM by YesYourNigel.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

YesYourNigel

Jun 22 2025, 1:42 PM #5

(Jun 19 2025, 4:12 PM)Persephone Holy shit, I thought I was the only one who thought this way. Femininity IS a leash and no one is immune to propaganda.

Quote:Sometimes I try to do the down and dirty work of helping the insecure teenage girls in places like TGSG get over damaging beliefs but it's an absolutely thankless job and for every comment with a positive response there's another three posts of brainwashed girls with the same problem.

Quote:We need some kind of organised propaganda campaign I swear. Women are waking up but so many need that little push to realise it's ALL bullshit.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

StarTea

Jun 26 2025, 12:46 PM

As a starter, listing what 'femininity' and 'feminine traits' actually mean in a coherent manner. Some traits are universally considered feminine, like nurturing, but others are more contextual. In the US, being bubbly and sociable is a desirable trait for women, but it would not have been in ancient Greece. Is introversion feminine? Is an interest in art and the humanities feminine?

Once we actually list and agree on what are the feminine traits, we should then figure out which ones are actually harmful. To use your example, being vulnerable is actually very important in building deep relationships. Men's refusal to be vulnerable means their only "deep" relationships come from doing stupid shit with other men like hazings. However, being vulnerable is obviously a bad idea in a high-stress environment where people need to be able to respond to stressors quickly and accurately. Few traits are universally harmful, so I'd rather do triage on what the most harmful ones are.

There is also something else. It's not just about getting women to stop being feminine, but to develop useful traits that are discouraged in women. I would like to encourage women to be assertive. I would like to encourage women to care less about social approval. I would like women to put way less emphasis on physical appearance. These are useful traits to adopt.

Finally as to how to get women to do this - unless you run some kind of large organization, I don't think you have any influence over "women." You can model it in real life, find women who are struggling with some harmful traits and help them redefine it (e.g. you're not unempathetic if you are assertive), and you can try to create a document that you can share with women (e.g. a book, post, website).

StarTea

Jun 26 2025, 12:46 PM #6

YesYourNigel

227

Jun 26 2025, 8:13 PM

(Jun 26 2025, 12:46 PM)StarTea Some traits are universally considered feminine, like nurturing, but others are more contextual. In the US, being bubbly and sociable is a desirable trait for women, but it would not have been in ancient Greece. Is introversion feminine? Is an interest in art and the humanities feminine?

I find this point to be inevitable when it comes to women being asked to question femininity. The whole "Well femininity as we know it isn't universal" thing, as if it's some esoteric, mysterious essence. It's completely irrelevant what Ancient Greeks thought of femininity because you're not writing from Ancient Greece, nor am I reading this in Ancient Greece. We know what femininity is here and now, so there is no point in talking about what it used to be or what it could be in some alternate reality.

Quote:we should then figure out which ones are actually harmful. To use your example, being vulnerable is actually very important in building deep relationships.

Most women are surrounded by people (especially men) who will exploit their vulnerability and manipulate them for personal gain. Women don't need to hear that they need to open up even more and do even more emotional labour for others. They need tactics to toughen up against a world that continuously shits on them. Women get more than enough functional emotional development just from not being raised to be narcissistic sociopaths the way men are, so these fears of them falling into the exact same extremes don't make sense to me.

Also, I specified that self-help content for women needs to focus on empowering them, rather than encouraging them to navel-gaze in their fragility and expand their thankless role as the resident self-sacrificial caretaker and manager of everyone's emotions. Self-help for women preys on women's feminine socialisation to turn them into even more of a doormat.

Regarding discussing the benefits and damages of femininity, I already made a thread on the subject. Bottom line is that even seemingly objectively good traits tend to get used against women by being demanded to an extreme self-harming degree, and specifically for the benefit of coddling shitty exploitative men who offer none of it in return. So it's not enough for a trait to just be a decent trait for all human beings, what women need are traits that enable them to protect themselves and make up for years of patriarchal brainwashing and denied skills and opportunities.

Quote:Finally as to how to get women to do this - unless you run some kind of large organization, I don't think you have any influence over "women."

If you think feminism is pointless because it has no influence over "women" then I'm not sure why you're on a feminist forum.

Edited Jun 27 2025, 7:21 AM by YesYourNigel.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

YesYourNigel

Jun 26 2025, 8:13 PM #7

(Jun 26 2025, 12:46 PM)StarTea Some traits are universally considered feminine, like nurturing, but others are more contextual. In the US, being bubbly and sociable is a desirable trait for women, but it would not have been in ancient Greece. Is introversion feminine? Is an interest in art and the humanities feminine?

Quote:we should then figure out which ones are actually harmful. To use your example, being vulnerable is actually very important in building deep relationships.

Quote:Finally as to how to get women to do this - unless you run some kind of large organization, I don't think you have any influence over "women."

If you think feminism is pointless because it has no influence over "women" then I'm not sure why you're on a feminist forum.

I refuse to debate two obvious facts: 1. the patriarchy exists 2. and that's a bad thing

StarTea

Jul 1 2025, 12:05 PM

(Jun 26 2025, 8:13 PM)YesYourNigel
(Jun 26 2025, 12:46 PM)StarTea Some traits are universally considered feminine, like nurturing, but others are more contextual. In the US, being bubbly and sociable is a desirable trait for women, but it would not have been in ancient Greece. Is introversion feminine? Is an interest in art and the humanities feminine?

I find this point to be inevitable when it comes to women being asked to question femininity. The whole "Well femininity as we know it isn't universal" thing, as if it's some esoteric, mysterious essence. It's completely irrelevant what Ancient Greeks thought of femininity because you're not writing from Ancient Greece, nor am I reading this in Ancient Greece. We know what femininity is here and now, so there is no point in talking about what it used to be or what it could be in some alternate reality.

Not everyone lives in whatever country you live in or is part of whatever class you are etc. and 'femininity' is absolutely different in different countries. I actually have no idea where you are from or what you consider to be 'femininity' and I've had plenty of arguments with other feminists about what is and isn't femininity. You should not take it for granted that everyone knows what you're talking about, especially on a global context aiming to free all women.

If you prefer a modern example, a certain degree of sexual presentation is considered desirably feminine in Latin American contexts that would be considered crass and unacceptable among upper middle class white Americans, who prefer modesty. I'm sure you can think of other examples. If you want to focus on things you consider universal and "obvious", you can just name them, as we have already done in this topic - emotional labor, beauty culture, mental load.

Quote:Most women are surrounded by people (especially men) who will exploit their vulnerability and manipulate them for personal gain. Women don't need to hear that they need to open up even more and do even more emotional labour for others. They need tactics to toughen up against a world that continuously shits on them. Women get more than enough functional emotional development just from not being raised to be narcissistic sociopaths the way men are, so these fears of them falling into the exact same extremes don't make sense to me.

I have no clue where you live, but most of the women I know are already plenty tough and basically only focused on themselves. They rely on their families and maybe their boyfriends (if they have any) if they need any help. They've absolutely fallen for the hyper-individualism propaganda.

Quote:Also, I specified that self-help content for women needs to focus on empowering them, rather than encouraging them to navel-gaze in their fragility and expand their thankless role as the resident self-sacrificial caretaker and manager of everyone's emotions. Self-help for women preys on women's feminine socialisation to turn them into even more of a doormat.

We must be exposed to very different self-help content. We have an entire deluge of self-help content on social media encouraging women to be just as sociopathic and self-interested in men. And I can certainly confirm that I know a lot of women who are basically just obsessed with bettering their own interest in their lives because "you have to care of yourself first," "I don't owe anyone anything," "my toxic friends ask for too much emotional labor for me" and then are surprised to find out that they're friendless and on their own. I guess I would consider this a step up from being stepped on by everyone around them because of internalized martyrdom, but I don't think it's good for women and I don't think it's good for society. If we can land on somewhere beyond "everyone's doormat" and "hyperindividualism", I think that would be a coup.

Quote:If you think feminism is pointless because it has no influence over "women" then I'm not sure why you're on a feminist forum.

Read my post again: "unless you run some kind of large organization, I don't think you have any influence over "women."" Do you run a large organization? Do you run a small organization? Are you writer of an editorial that gets substantial traction? Do you do feminist outreach to women on a recurring basis? Do you have any actual practical way to put your agenda into action? If you do, then you actually have the ability to influence women! This is how actual feminists made wins - they banded together and created organizations and institutions that mobilized tons of women.

If you don't have any of these - if you don't have any actual mechanism for reaching out to women - then you cannot influence "women" en masse. You can, at best, influence the handful of women around you, which is good, but I don't think that's all you want. You're writing this because you presumably want to free women as a group from the constraints of femininity, right? Then figuring out how to reach these women in an effective way is as important as anything else we've discussed here.

We can brainstorm on how to create the means by which to reach women. We can look up big organizations that we think might be amenable to our cause and pitch them. We can create an informative website with the advice in this thread and spread it on social media. We can write fiction showing women who are liberated. But beyond the theory, we need a way to get the message out because otherwise it's the equivalent of writing "this is how I would fix the economy" when you're not in any position of power.

StarTea

Jul 1 2025, 12:05 PM #8

(Jun 26 2025, 8:13 PM)YesYourNigel
(Jun 26 2025, 12:46 PM)StarTea Some traits are universally considered feminine, like nurturing, but others are more contextual. In the US, being bubbly and sociable is a desirable trait for women, but it would not have been in ancient Greece. Is introversion feminine? Is an interest in art and the humanities feminine?

I find this point to be inevitable when it comes to women being asked to question femininity. The whole "Well femininity as we know it isn't universal" thing, as if it's some esoteric, mysterious essence. It's completely irrelevant what Ancient Greeks thought of femininity because you're not writing from Ancient Greece, nor am I reading this in Ancient Greece. We know what femininity is here and now, so there is no point in talking about what it used to be or what it could be in some alternate reality.

Quote:Most women are surrounded by people (especially men) who will exploit their vulnerability and manipulate them for personal gain. Women don't need to hear that they need to open up even more and do even more emotional labour for others. They need tactics to toughen up against a world that continuously shits on them. Women get more than enough functional emotional development just from not being raised to be narcissistic sociopaths the way men are, so these fears of them falling into the exact same extremes don't make sense to me.

Quote:Also, I specified that self-help content for women needs to focus on empowering them, rather than encouraging them to navel-gaze in their fragility and expand their thankless role as the resident self-sacrificial caretaker and manager of everyone's emotions. Self-help for women preys on women's feminine socialisation to turn them into even more of a doormat.

Quote:If you think feminism is pointless because it has no influence over "women" then I'm not sure why you're on a feminist forum.

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