<![CDATA[clovenhooves - Everyday Sexism]]> https://clovenhooves.org/ Sat, 20 Jun 2026 20:11:32 +0000 MyBB <![CDATA[from I Don't, Clementine Ford]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1994 Thu, 18 Jun 2026 23:13:59 +0000 ptittle]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1994 Better yet, just get the book.  And read it.  Every word.
  • from blurb for Ford's I Don't  
    "why do so many women still believe that our value is intrinsically tied to being chosen by a man?"
"Ford explains how capitalist patriarchal structures need women to believe in marriage in order to maintain control over women’s agency, ambitions and freedom.  …  the insidious, centuries-long marketing campaign pop culture has conducted in marriage’s favour; … the physical and social cost that comes with motherhood."
 
 
from Ford's Introduction
"… to be marrying men so incompetent they couldn’t be trusted to organise a single part of the celebration binding them together till death do they part."

"Now saddled with an overgrown child who can’t seem to put his clothes into a laundry basket let alone a washing machine …"

"It’s a comprehensive look at how they have assumed such authority over women that we began to believe the lies they told about us, so that we would keep signing up to support the patriarchal system that works in their favour rather than fight against it."

"Who really needs marriage? Is it the women who receive superficial economic security in exchange for a life spent cleaning, washing, cooking and generally catering to a man’s every need? Or is it the men whose lives become easier the moment they begin cohabiting with a woman, who receive tangible economic security and the promise of economic advancement as a result of this partnership…"

"[M]arriage is a system whose foundations are built on the erasure of women, and the exploitation of everything that we are and have the potential to be."

"… men who speak out of their butthole about things they don’t understand and can’t be bothered reading up on."
 
from chap 1

"if men are so important and sacred, why are so few of them needed to ensure the longterm success of the human species?"

"Weirder still that it’s mothers and not fathers who provide the vast majority of food, care and protection for each generation until they come of age, while most male animals tend to sit around doing fuck all."
 
from chap 2

"Curiously, men who argue for women’s biological compulsion to nurture have never much liked it when I’ve thanked them for agreeing we should automatically receive full custody of children on the basis of our superior ability to care."

"But you’ll note that the more confident a man is about what women want, the less likely it is that he’s actually spoken to any to find out. He doesn’t read books by and about women, nor does he watch movies devoted to women’s stories, listen to music made by women, follow the work of intellectuals who are women or count women among his close friends."
 
from chap 3

"(The fact that toys designed to vibrate on multiple different speeds offer a much higher guarantee of sexual pleasure than being ploughed for seven minutes by a man who’s watched too much porn and may or may not commit to regularly washing his own butt is apparently lost on them.)"
 
from chap 6

"Over the course of about a year and a half [of attending weddings], I heard countless men say exactly the same things to and about the women they had just pledged to spend the rest of their lives with. I love how supportive she is. She takes such good care of me. She’s got a great sense of humour, because she always laughs at my jokes. Not one of them seemed able to say anything they actually knew about their wife. Only that she was beautiful, and they appreciated how she made their lives better."

"Often, the bride’s father would also stand up and say a few words. These were usually about how proud they’d been to walk their ‘little girl’ down the aisle, and how they knew Michael or Sam or Matt or Ben would ‘take good care of her’."

"[the best man's speech] … how great it was that he now had a wife to keep him on the straight and narrow."

"[her dowry:] and don’t you just love the idea of having to pay a man to marry you, only to become his property?"

Yeah.  That has got to be one of the most objectionable things.  That a young woman is such garbage, her parents have to pay to get rid of her.
 
from chap 7

"Did feminism tell women they could ‘have it all’? Or was that just something the broader culture settled on to define feminism’s purpose, the underlying message designed to make it all sound a bit greedy, a bit domineering, a bit … mannish? It seems to me that feminism told women that they should have options and agency, and not be enslaved to the exploitation and demands of men. Bit different, really."

"Nestled in suburbia, where the streets are lined with trees and every house boasts a white-picket fence, this era of ‘traditional family values’ seems to be remembered most fondly by people who weren’t there."

"As any online historian trained in the field of Making Shit Up will remind you, this is how men and women have always been."

"Let’s be serious: it’s not natural for women to work, just like it’s not natural for us to have body hair between the ages of whenever men start wanting to fuck us and whenever men stop wanting to fuck us."
 
from chap 8

"[T]ake your pick from the bingo card of Things Men Say To Women Who Don’t Want Them."

"Listen, if you’re the one going through the pregnancy, you should claim automatic naming rights. It’s your body that’s working hard to build an entire human from scratch. It’s your body that will be placed under enormous stress in the building of that human, and your body that risks injury, trauma and, in some cases, permanent disability in the birthing of that human. You are the one most likely to provide the majority of care to that child when they’re born, and certainly the one who’ll be held to account for any of that child’s extremely normal, childlike behaviour in public as it grows up. You’re the one who’ll handle the mental load for that child and who’ll do most of the boring shit for that child. Crucially, you’re the one whose career and earning capacity will be severely curtailed by that child and who’ll be discriminated against when you try to return to work. You’re the one people, including your husband, are more likely to say should ‘stay home with the kids’ rather than going back to work because ‘her salary barely covers the child care’—as if you and you alone have to prove economic benefit to the family as a whole in order to earn the right to return to your profession. And for all that effort and risk, you’re supposed to turn around and automatically give some guy the right to brand YOUR child with his name, just because he had a three-second dick spasm in a vagina that might now have a prolapse?"
 
from chap 9

"If women had the same economic opportunities as men—indeed, if women’s right to economic independence was considered as sacrosanct and vital to their self-esteem as it is to men’s—then the dream of domestic bliss with the white-picket fence would very quickly reveal itself to be as flimsy as a house of cards."
"If we believed at the most basic level of our existence that our lives belonged first and foremost to us, we’d soon see that the options presented by the patriarchy as necessary to our fundamental happiness aren’t really all that great. Marriage has maintained its vice-like grip on women because the vast majority of us have been denied the same rights to financial liberation and independence as men."

"If women with economic means can live happy, fulfilling lives all by themselves, then maybe what we need isn’t men at all.  It’s money."
 
chap 10

"to paraphrase Zawn Villines, men steal women’s potential in order to buy their own power"

"From wrestling sabre-toothed tigers to feed the tribe, storming battlefields for the sole purpose of protecting women and children, being Jesus, conquering new lands (which involved absolutely no violence or anything against which the men already there would possibly need to defend ‘their’ women and children) and basically inventing everything that’s every existed, the sweeping saga of Man’s Greatness is well known to us all."
"Sign on the dotted line, girls, and men will agree to meet just enough of your most basic needs (shelter, food and a nominal promise of protection against other men) in exchange for an endless supply of domestic labour, obedience, care and sex. This is what patriarchy calls ‘providing’."

"And the expectation that women repay men’s marginal economic investment with a lifetime of service? Well, that’s just what’s required to ‘keep up their end of the bargain’."
And that's not even taking into account pregnancy, birthing, and childcare.

"We bloody well provide for you, don’t we? they scream, as if somehow we’re to blame for our economic disadvantage.  As if we were the ones who denied ourselves the right to an education, or to work, or to vote, or to marry who we wanted, or to not marry at all. As if we, the women who were not allowed to become lawyers or judges or even readers, were somehow responsible for writing legislation that removed all agency over our own bodies and transferred them into the ownership of fathers and husbands."
 
from chap 11

"Men’s fairytales never have marriage at the core; home is only where he returns when his quest is complete."
 
from chap 12

"…overgrown child who’s convinced his wife he’s a hapless twit so that she stops asking him to do things he doesn’t want to (but will undertake as a gesture of goodwill when he wants to have sex that night). How this fits with men’s valorisation of themselves as protectors and providers is anyone’s guess…"

"They invented everything—but they can’t use a dishwasher!"

"Sons learn how to dehumanise women by first watching their mother be dehumanised."
 
from chap 14

‘Because I have other professions open to me in which the hours are shorter, the work more agreeable, and the pay possibly better.’  Miss Florence Watts, ‘Why am I a spinster?’, Tit-Bits magazine, 1889

"The reality men have set up for themselves is deliberately filled with these kinds of paradoxes and contradictions. Men need to be dragged to the altar, but are enraged by the thought of women not wanting to get married at all. Women are the nurturers and are better placed to do most of the caring for the kids, but fathers are equally important, especially when it comes to custody battles. Women baby-trap men and then ruin men’s lives by leaving them. He treats her like shit, but she’s so lucky to have him. Around and around we go, with women doing everything to meet the needs of men and getting absolutely nothing in return."

"Having been brainwashed for centuries to believe that our biological role is to nurture—which conveniently includes caring for men as if they were children—we are that much easier to coerce into marriage."
 
from chap 15

"Pregnancy is dangerous. Childbirth is dangerous. Both can be navigated safely, but they’re not easy and they certainly aren’t meaningless. We shouldn’t consider it normal for women to emerge from the experience of creating life having half-wrecked their own. We shouldn’t accept as commonplace the fact that one in three people who give birth will deal with ongoing incontinence. Men have forced women into this labour for their own benefit, not for ours. To satisfy their own egos and maintain their fortunes, they created a contract that would tether women to them permanently."
"[Our patriarchal society] claims to revere mothers, while denying us dignity, adequate health care and opportunities. It pretends to value this ‘essential work’, calling motherhood ‘the most important job in the world’ but it won’t pay us for it, because economically empowered women are a threat to patriarchy and, besides, how can you put a price on something so pure? It claims that men protect women, and protect especially the women who are carrying ‘their’ children, even as evidence to the contrary washes through like a tsunami."

"Men are not our valiant protectors; they are our most dangerous predators. They collectively represent the biggest risk to our health and safety. And during pregnancy and postpartum, we confront the most terrifying reality of all: when we are doing what it is we are told we must do, either growing life or caring for new life, the likelihood of domestic abuse, including sexual abuse, perpetrated by our partners, our husbands, our ‘protectors’, increases. Becoming mothers places our lives most at risk not because our child could kill us accidentally—but because their father could kill us on purpose."
"Imagine if a man’s dick exploded every time he became a father, or his sexual capacity diminished considerably or disappeared entirely. Imagine if his ability to reach orgasm was forever changed because crucial nerves needed for sexual pleasure had been permanently damaged. We’d never hear the bloody end of it."
"Imagine if a man’s dick exploded every time he became a father, or his sexual capacity diminished considerably or disappeared entirely. Imagine if his ability to reach orgasm was forever changed because crucial nerves needed for sexual pleasure had been permanently damaged. We’d never hear the bloody end of it."
"Imagine if a man’s dick exploded every time he became a father, or his sexual capacity diminished considerably or disappeared entirely. Imagine if his ability to reach orgasm was forever changed because crucial nerves needed for sexual pleasure had been permanently damaged. We’d never hear the bloody end of it."
"You know, people spit the accusation man hater at me like there aren’t five billion fucking good reasons why I and any other woman with a brain have no choice but to hate them."]]> Better yet, just get the book.  And read it.  Every word.
  • from blurb for Ford's I Don't  
    "why do so many women still believe that our value is intrinsically tied to being chosen by a man?"
"Ford explains how capitalist patriarchal structures need women to believe in marriage in order to maintain control over women’s agency, ambitions and freedom.  …  the insidious, centuries-long marketing campaign pop culture has conducted in marriage’s favour; … the physical and social cost that comes with motherhood."
 
 
from Ford's Introduction
"… to be marrying men so incompetent they couldn’t be trusted to organise a single part of the celebration binding them together till death do they part."

"Now saddled with an overgrown child who can’t seem to put his clothes into a laundry basket let alone a washing machine …"

"It’s a comprehensive look at how they have assumed such authority over women that we began to believe the lies they told about us, so that we would keep signing up to support the patriarchal system that works in their favour rather than fight against it."

"Who really needs marriage? Is it the women who receive superficial economic security in exchange for a life spent cleaning, washing, cooking and generally catering to a man’s every need? Or is it the men whose lives become easier the moment they begin cohabiting with a woman, who receive tangible economic security and the promise of economic advancement as a result of this partnership…"

"[M]arriage is a system whose foundations are built on the erasure of women, and the exploitation of everything that we are and have the potential to be."

"… men who speak out of their butthole about things they don’t understand and can’t be bothered reading up on."
 
from chap 1

"if men are so important and sacred, why are so few of them needed to ensure the longterm success of the human species?"

"Weirder still that it’s mothers and not fathers who provide the vast majority of food, care and protection for each generation until they come of age, while most male animals tend to sit around doing fuck all."
 
from chap 2

"Curiously, men who argue for women’s biological compulsion to nurture have never much liked it when I’ve thanked them for agreeing we should automatically receive full custody of children on the basis of our superior ability to care."

"But you’ll note that the more confident a man is about what women want, the less likely it is that he’s actually spoken to any to find out. He doesn’t read books by and about women, nor does he watch movies devoted to women’s stories, listen to music made by women, follow the work of intellectuals who are women or count women among his close friends."
 
from chap 3

"(The fact that toys designed to vibrate on multiple different speeds offer a much higher guarantee of sexual pleasure than being ploughed for seven minutes by a man who’s watched too much porn and may or may not commit to regularly washing his own butt is apparently lost on them.)"
 
from chap 6

"Over the course of about a year and a half [of attending weddings], I heard countless men say exactly the same things to and about the women they had just pledged to spend the rest of their lives with. I love how supportive she is. She takes such good care of me. She’s got a great sense of humour, because she always laughs at my jokes. Not one of them seemed able to say anything they actually knew about their wife. Only that she was beautiful, and they appreciated how she made their lives better."

"Often, the bride’s father would also stand up and say a few words. These were usually about how proud they’d been to walk their ‘little girl’ down the aisle, and how they knew Michael or Sam or Matt or Ben would ‘take good care of her’."

"[the best man's speech] … how great it was that he now had a wife to keep him on the straight and narrow."

"[her dowry:] and don’t you just love the idea of having to pay a man to marry you, only to become his property?"

Yeah.  That has got to be one of the most objectionable things.  That a young woman is such garbage, her parents have to pay to get rid of her.
 
from chap 7

"Did feminism tell women they could ‘have it all’? Or was that just something the broader culture settled on to define feminism’s purpose, the underlying message designed to make it all sound a bit greedy, a bit domineering, a bit … mannish? It seems to me that feminism told women that they should have options and agency, and not be enslaved to the exploitation and demands of men. Bit different, really."

"Nestled in suburbia, where the streets are lined with trees and every house boasts a white-picket fence, this era of ‘traditional family values’ seems to be remembered most fondly by people who weren’t there."

"As any online historian trained in the field of Making Shit Up will remind you, this is how men and women have always been."

"Let’s be serious: it’s not natural for women to work, just like it’s not natural for us to have body hair between the ages of whenever men start wanting to fuck us and whenever men stop wanting to fuck us."
 
from chap 8

"[T]ake your pick from the bingo card of Things Men Say To Women Who Don’t Want Them."

"Listen, if you’re the one going through the pregnancy, you should claim automatic naming rights. It’s your body that’s working hard to build an entire human from scratch. It’s your body that will be placed under enormous stress in the building of that human, and your body that risks injury, trauma and, in some cases, permanent disability in the birthing of that human. You are the one most likely to provide the majority of care to that child when they’re born, and certainly the one who’ll be held to account for any of that child’s extremely normal, childlike behaviour in public as it grows up. You’re the one who’ll handle the mental load for that child and who’ll do most of the boring shit for that child. Crucially, you’re the one whose career and earning capacity will be severely curtailed by that child and who’ll be discriminated against when you try to return to work. You’re the one people, including your husband, are more likely to say should ‘stay home with the kids’ rather than going back to work because ‘her salary barely covers the child care’—as if you and you alone have to prove economic benefit to the family as a whole in order to earn the right to return to your profession. And for all that effort and risk, you’re supposed to turn around and automatically give some guy the right to brand YOUR child with his name, just because he had a three-second dick spasm in a vagina that might now have a prolapse?"
 
from chap 9

"If women had the same economic opportunities as men—indeed, if women’s right to economic independence was considered as sacrosanct and vital to their self-esteem as it is to men’s—then the dream of domestic bliss with the white-picket fence would very quickly reveal itself to be as flimsy as a house of cards."
"If we believed at the most basic level of our existence that our lives belonged first and foremost to us, we’d soon see that the options presented by the patriarchy as necessary to our fundamental happiness aren’t really all that great. Marriage has maintained its vice-like grip on women because the vast majority of us have been denied the same rights to financial liberation and independence as men."

"If women with economic means can live happy, fulfilling lives all by themselves, then maybe what we need isn’t men at all.  It’s money."
 
chap 10

"to paraphrase Zawn Villines, men steal women’s potential in order to buy their own power"

"From wrestling sabre-toothed tigers to feed the tribe, storming battlefields for the sole purpose of protecting women and children, being Jesus, conquering new lands (which involved absolutely no violence or anything against which the men already there would possibly need to defend ‘their’ women and children) and basically inventing everything that’s every existed, the sweeping saga of Man’s Greatness is well known to us all."
"Sign on the dotted line, girls, and men will agree to meet just enough of your most basic needs (shelter, food and a nominal promise of protection against other men) in exchange for an endless supply of domestic labour, obedience, care and sex. This is what patriarchy calls ‘providing’."

"And the expectation that women repay men’s marginal economic investment with a lifetime of service? Well, that’s just what’s required to ‘keep up their end of the bargain’."
And that's not even taking into account pregnancy, birthing, and childcare.

"We bloody well provide for you, don’t we? they scream, as if somehow we’re to blame for our economic disadvantage.  As if we were the ones who denied ourselves the right to an education, or to work, or to vote, or to marry who we wanted, or to not marry at all. As if we, the women who were not allowed to become lawyers or judges or even readers, were somehow responsible for writing legislation that removed all agency over our own bodies and transferred them into the ownership of fathers and husbands."
 
from chap 11

"Men’s fairytales never have marriage at the core; home is only where he returns when his quest is complete."
 
from chap 12

"…overgrown child who’s convinced his wife he’s a hapless twit so that she stops asking him to do things he doesn’t want to (but will undertake as a gesture of goodwill when he wants to have sex that night). How this fits with men’s valorisation of themselves as protectors and providers is anyone’s guess…"

"They invented everything—but they can’t use a dishwasher!"

"Sons learn how to dehumanise women by first watching their mother be dehumanised."
 
from chap 14

‘Because I have other professions open to me in which the hours are shorter, the work more agreeable, and the pay possibly better.’  Miss Florence Watts, ‘Why am I a spinster?’, Tit-Bits magazine, 1889

"The reality men have set up for themselves is deliberately filled with these kinds of paradoxes and contradictions. Men need to be dragged to the altar, but are enraged by the thought of women not wanting to get married at all. Women are the nurturers and are better placed to do most of the caring for the kids, but fathers are equally important, especially when it comes to custody battles. Women baby-trap men and then ruin men’s lives by leaving them. He treats her like shit, but she’s so lucky to have him. Around and around we go, with women doing everything to meet the needs of men and getting absolutely nothing in return."

"Having been brainwashed for centuries to believe that our biological role is to nurture—which conveniently includes caring for men as if they were children—we are that much easier to coerce into marriage."
 
from chap 15

"Pregnancy is dangerous. Childbirth is dangerous. Both can be navigated safely, but they’re not easy and they certainly aren’t meaningless. We shouldn’t consider it normal for women to emerge from the experience of creating life having half-wrecked their own. We shouldn’t accept as commonplace the fact that one in three people who give birth will deal with ongoing incontinence. Men have forced women into this labour for their own benefit, not for ours. To satisfy their own egos and maintain their fortunes, they created a contract that would tether women to them permanently."
"[Our patriarchal society] claims to revere mothers, while denying us dignity, adequate health care and opportunities. It pretends to value this ‘essential work’, calling motherhood ‘the most important job in the world’ but it won’t pay us for it, because economically empowered women are a threat to patriarchy and, besides, how can you put a price on something so pure? It claims that men protect women, and protect especially the women who are carrying ‘their’ children, even as evidence to the contrary washes through like a tsunami."

"Men are not our valiant protectors; they are our most dangerous predators. They collectively represent the biggest risk to our health and safety. And during pregnancy and postpartum, we confront the most terrifying reality of all: when we are doing what it is we are told we must do, either growing life or caring for new life, the likelihood of domestic abuse, including sexual abuse, perpetrated by our partners, our husbands, our ‘protectors’, increases. Becoming mothers places our lives most at risk not because our child could kill us accidentally—but because their father could kill us on purpose."
"Imagine if a man’s dick exploded every time he became a father, or his sexual capacity diminished considerably or disappeared entirely. Imagine if his ability to reach orgasm was forever changed because crucial nerves needed for sexual pleasure had been permanently damaged. We’d never hear the bloody end of it."
"Imagine if a man’s dick exploded every time he became a father, or his sexual capacity diminished considerably or disappeared entirely. Imagine if his ability to reach orgasm was forever changed because crucial nerves needed for sexual pleasure had been permanently damaged. We’d never hear the bloody end of it."
"Imagine if a man’s dick exploded every time he became a father, or his sexual capacity diminished considerably or disappeared entirely. Imagine if his ability to reach orgasm was forever changed because crucial nerves needed for sexual pleasure had been permanently damaged. We’d never hear the bloody end of it."
"You know, people spit the accusation man hater at me like there aren’t five billion fucking good reasons why I and any other woman with a brain have no choice but to hate them."]]> <![CDATA[''positive male role models'' is such an easy cop-out to excuse misogyny in boys]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1950 Thu, 19 Mar 2026 15:57:42 +0000 Mixmax]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1950
But... Aren't there plenty? Yeah, okay, I'll admit that the names of many celebrities and famous men are tainted by scandals, but that doesn't make them worse than Tate. Okay, but then there're also still plenty of examples that ARE decent, right? At least as far as we know now. And moving away from famous men, there're also, one hopes, plenty of ''positive male role models'' on a smaller scale in these boy's lives. Or else people who use that argument are more misandrist than I am. Coaches, teachers, neighbours, friends' fathers... There should still be plenty.

So why, then, do they choose to listen to rabid misogynists? Well, that's where we're starting to ask the real questions. I just find it annoying how easily people accept the rationalization of ''we need more positive male role models'' as if that means anything, but when you pick it apart, it doesn't.

And let's say there's a genuinely positive famous man who treats women right. Alright: he per definition isn't what they look up to anymore. A decent male teacher telling them not to be raging misogynists is just [whatever incel MRA insult is treding right now].]]>
But... Aren't there plenty? Yeah, okay, I'll admit that the names of many celebrities and famous men are tainted by scandals, but that doesn't make them worse than Tate. Okay, but then there're also still plenty of examples that ARE decent, right? At least as far as we know now. And moving away from famous men, there're also, one hopes, plenty of ''positive male role models'' on a smaller scale in these boy's lives. Or else people who use that argument are more misandrist than I am. Coaches, teachers, neighbours, friends' fathers... There should still be plenty.

So why, then, do they choose to listen to rabid misogynists? Well, that's where we're starting to ask the real questions. I just find it annoying how easily people accept the rationalization of ''we need more positive male role models'' as if that means anything, but when you pick it apart, it doesn't.

And let's say there's a genuinely positive famous man who treats women right. Alright: he per definition isn't what they look up to anymore. A decent male teacher telling them not to be raging misogynists is just [whatever incel MRA insult is treding right now].]]> <![CDATA[Heated Rivalry take: Girls Who Love Boys Who Love Boys]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1938 Tue, 03 Mar 2026 01:51:40 +0000 Knotgonnalie]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1938

https://www.vulture.com/article/heated-rivalry-fujoshi-fan-fiction.html

gift link: https://archive.is/4L2n0]]>

https://www.vulture.com/article/heated-rivalry-fujoshi-fan-fiction.html

gift link: https://archive.is/4L2n0]]> <![CDATA[Cam Newton explains why 'women’s value gets lowered the more children that they have']]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1925 Thu, 19 Feb 2026 18:30:12 +0000 Elsacat]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1925 Article | Archive

(For those not familiar, Cam Newton is an American football player)

Quote:"I just think that the reality of that answer is that women’s value gets lowered the more children that they have," he said on the podcast. "I was having this conversation with one of the mothers of my children and she’s still fine. Like, I was telling her, ‘The guy that you’re dating or will date, if he ain’t willing to love on these five children that you have, he ain’t the guy for you.’

He's not wrong about making sure a new guy will treat the kids right, not just the mother. But he leads off with the sad and infuriating part. Plus as a babydaddy of many, he's part of the problem.]]> Article | Archive

(For those not familiar, Cam Newton is an American football player)

Quote:"I just think that the reality of that answer is that women’s value gets lowered the more children that they have," he said on the podcast. "I was having this conversation with one of the mothers of my children and she’s still fine. Like, I was telling her, ‘The guy that you’re dating or will date, if he ain’t willing to love on these five children that you have, he ain’t the guy for you.’

He's not wrong about making sure a new guy will treat the kids right, not just the mother. But he leads off with the sad and infuriating part. Plus as a babydaddy of many, he's part of the problem.]]> <![CDATA[Study sheds light on household labor dynamics for women partnered with women vs. men]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1806 Sat, 20 Dec 2025 00:57:21 +0000 Clover]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1806
https://www.psypost.org/study-sheds-light-on-household-labor-dynamics-for-women-partnered-with-women-vs-men/

Quote:A new study published in the Psychology of Women Quarterly explores how the division of household labor and decision-making power influences relationship satisfaction for women. The findings indicate that mothers in relationships with men tend to bear a heavier burden of domestic work compared to women in same-gender relationships or women without children. The research suggests that while having a voice in decision-making generally supports relationship quality, this positive link disappears for mothers partnered with men.

[...]

Women partnered with men reported doing more unpaid household labor than women partnered with women. This finding aligns with previous research regarding gender roles in different-gender relationships.

However, the most pronounced imbalance appeared when considering parental status. Mothers partnered with men reported a higher household labor burden than any other group in the study. This group performed more work than mothers partnered with women, childless women partnered with men, and childless women partnered with women.
]]>
https://www.psypost.org/study-sheds-light-on-household-labor-dynamics-for-women-partnered-with-women-vs-men/

Quote:A new study published in the Psychology of Women Quarterly explores how the division of household labor and decision-making power influences relationship satisfaction for women. The findings indicate that mothers in relationships with men tend to bear a heavier burden of domestic work compared to women in same-gender relationships or women without children. The research suggests that while having a voice in decision-making generally supports relationship quality, this positive link disappears for mothers partnered with men.

[...]

Women partnered with men reported doing more unpaid household labor than women partnered with women. This finding aligns with previous research regarding gender roles in different-gender relationships.

However, the most pronounced imbalance appeared when considering parental status. Mothers partnered with men reported a higher household labor burden than any other group in the study. This group performed more work than mothers partnered with women, childless women partnered with men, and childless women partnered with women.
]]> <![CDATA[[UK] Teachers to be trained to spot early signs of misogyny in boys]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1800 Thu, 18 Dec 2025 09:11:17 +0000 Clover]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1800
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9qednjzwv1o

Quote:Teachers will be given training to spot the signs of misogyny and tackle it in the classroom as part of the government's long-awaited strategy to halve violence against women and girls within the next decade.

The plans - which focus on preventing the radicalisation of young men - are due to be unveiled on Thursday, after being pushed back three times this year.

Pupils will be taught about issues such as consent, the dangers of sharing intimate images, how to identify positive role models, and to challenge unhealthy myths about women and relationships.

The £20m package will also include a new helpline for teenagers to get support for concerns about abuse in their own relationships.

The government hopes that by tackling the early roots of misogyny, it will prevent young men from becoming violent abusers.
]]>
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9qednjzwv1o

Quote:Teachers will be given training to spot the signs of misogyny and tackle it in the classroom as part of the government's long-awaited strategy to halve violence against women and girls within the next decade.

The plans - which focus on preventing the radicalisation of young men - are due to be unveiled on Thursday, after being pushed back three times this year.

Pupils will be taught about issues such as consent, the dangers of sharing intimate images, how to identify positive role models, and to challenge unhealthy myths about women and relationships.

The £20m package will also include a new helpline for teenagers to get support for concerns about abuse in their own relationships.

The government hopes that by tackling the early roots of misogyny, it will prevent young men from becoming violent abusers.
]]> <![CDATA[“Women shouldn’t need a psychology degree just to (not even) get the bare minimum.”]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1735 Tue, 02 Dec 2025 23:45:17 +0000 Clover]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1735 https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1pccg1j/women_shouldnt_need_a_psychology_degree_just_to/

Really good breakdown of how men just don't care about women and women's continuous bar-lowering standards for male partners.

Skyobli It was me. I used to say things like:

“Maybe explain to him that you need help with the trash?”
“Try complimenting him when he does do chores!”
“Maybe he just never learned how to communicate, have you tried helping him?”
And the classic: “If you always do the task first, he doesn’t get a chance. Just wait a few more days!”

I genuinely thought communication would fix everything. I didn’t understand that many men simply don’t want to do anything. I thought adulthood was something you could talk someone into.

I really started seeing the pattern when my girlfriends and sisters got married and had kids. Every story sounded the same. I used to joke, “Oh, funny, X has the exact same issue with her husband Y.” Until I realized: it’s not a coincidence. It’s a pattern.

You can’t “talk” a man into being an equal partner. All the women I know have become communication experts. Reading books, watching videos, going to therapy, learning how to phrase things gently, scheduling calm conversations, checking in if he has the “energy” to listen, explaining (for the 100th time) that they need help because they’re drowning. Some even ask their men what they need in order to give us equality.

And it always goes one of two ways:

  1. Defensiveness: suddenly he’s stressed, misunderstood, overworked, planning to do the thing “any minute now,” and somehow you are the problem for bringing it up.
  2. The Illusion of 'a Good Conversation': he apologizes, says he’ll “work on it,” promises to “try harder,” gives you a big hug and kiss and throws a few compliments your way… and nothing changes. The same conversation repeats in two months.
When I finally told my ex that I no longer believed his chore-promises, I was terrified of sounding like a nag. He'd always promised to do some type of chore that evening/weekend, and he never, ever did. At some point it even triggered a stomach ache whenever he declared he was going to clean. Because I knew I was being lied to right in my face. I rehearsed every sentence, made it soft, neutral, careful. All I wanted was a clean kitchen and shared responsibility.

And still he got irritated. Still he made it about his stress, his intentions, his feelings. I was at fault for “not giving him the benefit of the doubt.”

Meanwhile my friends have changed their entire way of speaking:
Not “Could you vacuum?” but “Can you please make the floor crumb-free and clean,” because otherwise he’ll do it for 2 minutes and call it done. "what? you asked me to vaccuum and I did!"

Not “Do the dishes,” but “Please empty the dishwasher, load it, dry everything, and wipe the counters,” just to prevent the inevitable half-assing. Even then he complains it’s condescending. But if you wouldn't be specific, he won't do it and say he 'just doesn't see' what needs to be done.

And the excessive “pleases” and “thank yous,” because without it he’ll accuse you of not being appreciated, though he never thanks you for anything.

I’m so tired. Tired of women bending over backwards and basically earning a psychology degree just to get the bare minimum. Tired of men communicating like teenagers. Denying, deflecting, defending, or agreeing to everything just to end the conversation. Tired of being told we didn’t communicate “clearly” enough, even though we do all of these tasks ourselves every single day without needing a PowerPoint presentation.

I’ve been single for a while now, and once you see the pattern, you can’t unsee it. I’d love to meet an emotionally mature man who can have a real, constructive conversation — but they seem rare.

Sometimes they even flip our communication skills into an insult:
“You’re not always right, you just know how to talk better than me!”

And then what? Do they read up on communication? Do they initiate conversations to improve the relationship? Do they watch videos on how to 'talk better'? Or, god forbid, do their fair share of work?

No. Nothing.
Because they don’t want to.
]]> https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1pccg1j/women_shouldnt_need_a_psychology_degree_just_to/

Really good breakdown of how men just don't care about women and women's continuous bar-lowering standards for male partners.

Skyobli It was me. I used to say things like:

“Maybe explain to him that you need help with the trash?”
“Try complimenting him when he does do chores!”
“Maybe he just never learned how to communicate, have you tried helping him?”
And the classic: “If you always do the task first, he doesn’t get a chance. Just wait a few more days!”

I genuinely thought communication would fix everything. I didn’t understand that many men simply don’t want to do anything. I thought adulthood was something you could talk someone into.

I really started seeing the pattern when my girlfriends and sisters got married and had kids. Every story sounded the same. I used to joke, “Oh, funny, X has the exact same issue with her husband Y.” Until I realized: it’s not a coincidence. It’s a pattern.

You can’t “talk” a man into being an equal partner. All the women I know have become communication experts. Reading books, watching videos, going to therapy, learning how to phrase things gently, scheduling calm conversations, checking in if he has the “energy” to listen, explaining (for the 100th time) that they need help because they’re drowning. Some even ask their men what they need in order to give us equality.

And it always goes one of two ways:

  1. Defensiveness: suddenly he’s stressed, misunderstood, overworked, planning to do the thing “any minute now,” and somehow you are the problem for bringing it up.
  2. The Illusion of 'a Good Conversation': he apologizes, says he’ll “work on it,” promises to “try harder,” gives you a big hug and kiss and throws a few compliments your way… and nothing changes. The same conversation repeats in two months.
When I finally told my ex that I no longer believed his chore-promises, I was terrified of sounding like a nag. He'd always promised to do some type of chore that evening/weekend, and he never, ever did. At some point it even triggered a stomach ache whenever he declared he was going to clean. Because I knew I was being lied to right in my face. I rehearsed every sentence, made it soft, neutral, careful. All I wanted was a clean kitchen and shared responsibility.

And still he got irritated. Still he made it about his stress, his intentions, his feelings. I was at fault for “not giving him the benefit of the doubt.”

Meanwhile my friends have changed their entire way of speaking:
Not “Could you vacuum?” but “Can you please make the floor crumb-free and clean,” because otherwise he’ll do it for 2 minutes and call it done. "what? you asked me to vaccuum and I did!"

Not “Do the dishes,” but “Please empty the dishwasher, load it, dry everything, and wipe the counters,” just to prevent the inevitable half-assing. Even then he complains it’s condescending. But if you wouldn't be specific, he won't do it and say he 'just doesn't see' what needs to be done.

And the excessive “pleases” and “thank yous,” because without it he’ll accuse you of not being appreciated, though he never thanks you for anything.

I’m so tired. Tired of women bending over backwards and basically earning a psychology degree just to get the bare minimum. Tired of men communicating like teenagers. Denying, deflecting, defending, or agreeing to everything just to end the conversation. Tired of being told we didn’t communicate “clearly” enough, even though we do all of these tasks ourselves every single day without needing a PowerPoint presentation.

I’ve been single for a while now, and once you see the pattern, you can’t unsee it. I’d love to meet an emotionally mature man who can have a real, constructive conversation — but they seem rare.

Sometimes they even flip our communication skills into an insult:
“You’re not always right, you just know how to talk better than me!”

And then what? Do they read up on communication? Do they initiate conversations to improve the relationship? Do they watch videos on how to 'talk better'? Or, god forbid, do their fair share of work?

No. Nothing.
Because they don’t want to.
]]> <![CDATA[“I stopped planning everything for my friend group and the silence was so loud”]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1726 Wed, 26 Nov 2025 00:45:31 +0000 Clover]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1726 https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1p6bste/i_stopped_planning_everything_for_my_friend_group/

RalvionTesmarc Im 29F and somehow I became the default "cruise director" of my mixed friend group. If there was a birthday, weekend trip, even just a movie night, I was the one making the doodle, booking tickets, remembering allergies, picking up a cake. The guys always joked that I was "just naturally organized", like I spawned from a Google Calendar or smth. I kept brushing it off because I do like hosting, but lately I was feeling so tired and weirdly invisible, like a talking spreadsheet instead of a friend.

So last month I did a stupid little experiment. I told everyone I would be slammed with work for a few weeks and muted the group chat. No suggestions, no "hey dont forget X is on Thursday". The chat went almost completely dead. One of the men dropped a "we should do something soon" and... nothing. No concrete plan, no follow up. Two birthdays passed and both were just "HBD!!" texts. Yesterday one of the guys half-joked that our friend group is "falling apart" and asked me why I stopped organizing stuff, like it was a personality glitch. When I said I was burnt out from doing unpaid social labor, he looked genuinely confused and said "but youre so good at it". Has anyone actually managed to redistribute this kind of invisible work, or is every woman just quietly running the logistics department of her social life forever?
]]> https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1p6bste/i_stopped_planning_everything_for_my_friend_group/

RalvionTesmarc Im 29F and somehow I became the default "cruise director" of my mixed friend group. If there was a birthday, weekend trip, even just a movie night, I was the one making the doodle, booking tickets, remembering allergies, picking up a cake. The guys always joked that I was "just naturally organized", like I spawned from a Google Calendar or smth. I kept brushing it off because I do like hosting, but lately I was feeling so tired and weirdly invisible, like a talking spreadsheet instead of a friend.

So last month I did a stupid little experiment. I told everyone I would be slammed with work for a few weeks and muted the group chat. No suggestions, no "hey dont forget X is on Thursday". The chat went almost completely dead. One of the men dropped a "we should do something soon" and... nothing. No concrete plan, no follow up. Two birthdays passed and both were just "HBD!!" texts. Yesterday one of the guys half-joked that our friend group is "falling apart" and asked me why I stopped organizing stuff, like it was a personality glitch. When I said I was burnt out from doing unpaid social labor, he looked genuinely confused and said "but youre so good at it". Has anyone actually managed to redistribute this kind of invisible work, or is every woman just quietly running the logistics department of her social life forever?
]]> <![CDATA[The Goth Fetishes of MAGA Moids]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1711 Sun, 23 Nov 2025 03:51:45 +0000 Impress Polly]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1711
Back when I was little, I saw the original Beetlejuice movie and The Addams Family Values and wanted to be like the characters Lydia and Wednesday from those respective movies. I found them mysterious, interesting, smart, and kind of scary. Kind of like how Halloween got started by the ancients wearing frightening masks to scare off evil spirits, one may similarly find that many scared people want to be scary. Such was it with me. A perception of danger repels many threats. That's how it all began for me. To use a fairly applicable cultural cliche, I like to consider myself a kind of goth geek. To that end, you won't be surprised to learn that YouTube often recommends me lots of gothic music and subculture type videos. This one by Demetri Falco I saw recently though I thought may be of particular interest around here:



(She calls herself a "basic goth". Clearly she ain't seen my qualitatively more reserved style. )

Like most goths, punks, emo peeps, and other assorted freakazoids, Demetri embraces a fairly individualistic worldview that is obviously not entirely mine. That said, I found her comments here worth sharing because she discusses, at some length, a pattern she's noticed of normie-ass men -- often of a politically conservative bent -- visiting gothic clubs to pick up women. She's got a lot of interesting theories as to why that is that I think are highly credible. In particular, I agree with her thinking that increasing volumes of porn addiction in society are playing a major role in this trend. She's definitely onto something when she points out the way goth women are portrayed in pornographic media. There's this reputation and image that the community has, and which porn content amplifies and turns into a cliche, that "alt girls" just looooooove being tied up and tortured and that just sounds like so much more fun than their unadventurous, Bible-thumping vanilla wives and girlfriends who impose conditions on them for sex. Fun for them anyway. Uuugh! There's waaaaaaay too much truth right there, seriously! 

She also presents evidence to support cases of like certain men viewing the alt ladies as a challenge to conquer. Y'know, you look like you're neurotic and screwed up and must've had a bad childhood and he can fix you, this sort of mindset. Or there's always my personal theory too that some are just drawn to an aura of danger you may give off as like something else to tame and conquer. Anyway, since it's all a discussion of sexual objectification and dehumanization, thought it worth sharing. Of course, as a liberal, she has no solutions to this dilemma, at one point even stating plainly that, in her estimation, "we just have to ignore it". After all, we cannot get rid of porn or separate ourselves from men or, goddess forbid, have the guts to oppose consensual male violence on principle. When that is your stance, when solutions are 'prudish' and intolerant, of course you have no solutions, just complaints to air into the void of YouTube. One cannot act on the way they feel.

sighs Just because my musical range is from this to this doesn't mean I want to be whipped or set on fire. I guess it just goes to show once more that there is no repelling all threats. Fucking life in a moid's world!!  :puke: :megacatweary:

EDIT: I has now achieved 100 posts and am now much cooler!!!!]]>
Back when I was little, I saw the original Beetlejuice movie and The Addams Family Values and wanted to be like the characters Lydia and Wednesday from those respective movies. I found them mysterious, interesting, smart, and kind of scary. Kind of like how Halloween got started by the ancients wearing frightening masks to scare off evil spirits, one may similarly find that many scared people want to be scary. Such was it with me. A perception of danger repels many threats. That's how it all began for me. To use a fairly applicable cultural cliche, I like to consider myself a kind of goth geek. To that end, you won't be surprised to learn that YouTube often recommends me lots of gothic music and subculture type videos. This one by Demetri Falco I saw recently though I thought may be of particular interest around here:



(She calls herself a "basic goth". Clearly she ain't seen my qualitatively more reserved style. )

Like most goths, punks, emo peeps, and other assorted freakazoids, Demetri embraces a fairly individualistic worldview that is obviously not entirely mine. That said, I found her comments here worth sharing because she discusses, at some length, a pattern she's noticed of normie-ass men -- often of a politically conservative bent -- visiting gothic clubs to pick up women. She's got a lot of interesting theories as to why that is that I think are highly credible. In particular, I agree with her thinking that increasing volumes of porn addiction in society are playing a major role in this trend. She's definitely onto something when she points out the way goth women are portrayed in pornographic media. There's this reputation and image that the community has, and which porn content amplifies and turns into a cliche, that "alt girls" just looooooove being tied up and tortured and that just sounds like so much more fun than their unadventurous, Bible-thumping vanilla wives and girlfriends who impose conditions on them for sex. Fun for them anyway. Uuugh! There's waaaaaaay too much truth right there, seriously! 

She also presents evidence to support cases of like certain men viewing the alt ladies as a challenge to conquer. Y'know, you look like you're neurotic and screwed up and must've had a bad childhood and he can fix you, this sort of mindset. Or there's always my personal theory too that some are just drawn to an aura of danger you may give off as like something else to tame and conquer. Anyway, since it's all a discussion of sexual objectification and dehumanization, thought it worth sharing. Of course, as a liberal, she has no solutions to this dilemma, at one point even stating plainly that, in her estimation, "we just have to ignore it". After all, we cannot get rid of porn or separate ourselves from men or, goddess forbid, have the guts to oppose consensual male violence on principle. When that is your stance, when solutions are 'prudish' and intolerant, of course you have no solutions, just complaints to air into the void of YouTube. One cannot act on the way they feel.

sighs Just because my musical range is from this to this doesn't mean I want to be whipped or set on fire. I guess it just goes to show once more that there is no repelling all threats. Fucking life in a moid's world!!  :puke: :megacatweary:

EDIT: I has now achieved 100 posts and am now much cooler!!!!]]> <![CDATA[r/TwoXChromosomes: “Husband went on a business trip and I had the house to myself”]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1651 Fri, 24 Oct 2025 21:59:27 +0000 Clover]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1651 https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1of43re/husband_went_on_a_business_trip_and_i_had_the/

Few-Silver3946 Husband went on a business trip a few months ago - gone for 3 weeks.

The first day that I came home to an empty house, I simultaneously missed him but also realized just how much clutter and mess was around the house - mostly his.  Shoes in random places.  Dirty clothes that somehow didn't make it to the hamper and had since taken up residence on the floor for weeks.  Clean clothes that also took up residence on the floor because he "just didn't have time" to put them away and would just pick through them for clothes to wear.  Empty soda cans, dirty cups, dirty dishes in his home office.  Stuff he bought months ago still sitting on the living room table.  Crumbs that fell from where he ate.

So I cleaned - the downstairs bathroom, the two upstairs bathrooms, the kitchen, the home office.  I wiped stuff down.  I put stuff away.  Organized things.  For the first time in a long time, the clutter was just gone.  And the next day I came home to an empty house, it was STILL gone and STILL clean.  It felt like my brain could breathe.  It was EXHILIRATING.

Admittedly, my husband is the type who likes to "clean together" but cleaning is a one-person job when it's therapeutic like this.  Plus, when he cleans, he needs excessive management - he's not thorough with cleaning mirrors (leaves streaks), misses stuff when wiping down surfaces, doesn't catch everything with the dust pan when sweeping, leaves the vacuum plugged in even after he's finished using it.

And over this timeframe of coming home to a clean house, I felt myself breathing a little easier.  There wasn't that tense sensation of *knowing* I had to straighten up something, knowing that I had to be alert to handle/take care of *something*.

Another thing that was wonderfully absent was the mental switchover to the "second shift" - where after working 9 hours, I'd drive home and immediately start cooking dinner and straighten up the kitchen (because he seems to have forgotten our longstanding agreement that if I cook, he cleans) and only have about 30-45 minutes to eat and be off my feet before it was time for bed.  Instead, it was a blissful escape from work, where I could catch up on reading, burn some scented candles, nibble on snacks/leftovers if I wanted without being hit with the "what are we having for dinner tonight" question while he was relaxing at his computer.

I could go to sleep whenever I wanted, and not get pawed and mouthed for below mediocre sex the minute I climbed under the blankets, got comfortable, and just. wanted. to. sleep.  Just me and my cats snuggling.

I had peace and cleanliness for 3 weeks.

The night he got home, within minutes, there was mess again.  Suitcase thrown on the floor, clothing pulled out of it and strewn about for him to "pick through" stuff that was clean.  Empty grocery bag left on the counter.  Second suitcase taken upstairs and, again, clothing strewn about the floor.  He took a bath 4 days ago in our upstairs bathroom and his clothes are STILL on the floor.

It might sound small but it hurts in a nagging, annoying way.  He was happy to see me and missed me so much.  I did miss him, but after my 3 weeks of no second-shift, no mess, no demands/expectations, and whole, uninterrupted evenings of me-time rather than snatches of 15-20 minute intervals here and there between cooking and cleaning and managing him, I miss my peace more.

 
Edit: Thanks everyone for the advice and the blunt tough-love.  I tend to internalize a lot and go the route of least resistance by handling things myself, but this instance really put a magnifying glass to stuff that I've just choked down my frustration to deal with.  I'm already in therapy for recently diagnosed anxiety/depression after dealing with some significant health crises affecting close family members, so I will extend the conversation to this.  My mental load just seems to grow by the day, and it feels like I can never really relax even when I'm home.  Admittedly there are days where I wish I could come home from work, grab my cats, and just keep driving - get a new phone and new phone number, never be found again except by people I want to find me.  On the one hand I know he loves me but on the other hand he's just so deficient in so many areas that it takes all of my energy to pick up that slack.

Not sure if it matters but my husband is on the spectrum, possibly with undiagnosed ADHD (I know it doesn't excuse this; there are plenty of people with autism who can manage themselves/their households better than neurotypical people).  Someone mentioned mess-blindness and to an extent I understand that, but I also REALLY don't - you know clothes go in the hamper or on the hanger/closet, not on the floor.

I will not do anything passive aggressive - no dishes in his car - but I will remind him of our deal about me cooking and him cleaning, as well as establish a cleaning schedule rather than just waiting for things to get messy.  When I was younger, my mom and I had a cleaning routine where you could plan on a day of cleaning, but 6 days of rest (which incentivized keeping stuff clean so you had 7 days of rest!) so I'll try that. 

As far as sex goes, I'm doing more exploring of my own body to get a real idea of what I actually like.  I know I can get wet, but with him I generally don't because I'm too busy thinking about other shit that I have to deal with.  That will be another conversation.  I got an IUD a while back after years of being on the Pill and I still have a lot of anxiety about anything going inside me because I subconsciously *feel* anticipatory discomfort down there.  I've been recommended to read "Come as You Are" and "She Comes First," too, so those are on my reading list.

Honestly, he also belongs in the Manbabies of Reddit Hall of Fame thread wherever I posted that.]]> https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1of43re/husband_went_on_a_business_trip_and_i_had_the/

Few-Silver3946 Husband went on a business trip a few months ago - gone for 3 weeks.

The first day that I came home to an empty house, I simultaneously missed him but also realized just how much clutter and mess was around the house - mostly his.  Shoes in random places.  Dirty clothes that somehow didn't make it to the hamper and had since taken up residence on the floor for weeks.  Clean clothes that also took up residence on the floor because he "just didn't have time" to put them away and would just pick through them for clothes to wear.  Empty soda cans, dirty cups, dirty dishes in his home office.  Stuff he bought months ago still sitting on the living room table.  Crumbs that fell from where he ate.

So I cleaned - the downstairs bathroom, the two upstairs bathrooms, the kitchen, the home office.  I wiped stuff down.  I put stuff away.  Organized things.  For the first time in a long time, the clutter was just gone.  And the next day I came home to an empty house, it was STILL gone and STILL clean.  It felt like my brain could breathe.  It was EXHILIRATING.

Admittedly, my husband is the type who likes to "clean together" but cleaning is a one-person job when it's therapeutic like this.  Plus, when he cleans, he needs excessive management - he's not thorough with cleaning mirrors (leaves streaks), misses stuff when wiping down surfaces, doesn't catch everything with the dust pan when sweeping, leaves the vacuum plugged in even after he's finished using it.

And over this timeframe of coming home to a clean house, I felt myself breathing a little easier.  There wasn't that tense sensation of *knowing* I had to straighten up something, knowing that I had to be alert to handle/take care of *something*.

Another thing that was wonderfully absent was the mental switchover to the "second shift" - where after working 9 hours, I'd drive home and immediately start cooking dinner and straighten up the kitchen (because he seems to have forgotten our longstanding agreement that if I cook, he cleans) and only have about 30-45 minutes to eat and be off my feet before it was time for bed.  Instead, it was a blissful escape from work, where I could catch up on reading, burn some scented candles, nibble on snacks/leftovers if I wanted without being hit with the "what are we having for dinner tonight" question while he was relaxing at his computer.

I could go to sleep whenever I wanted, and not get pawed and mouthed for below mediocre sex the minute I climbed under the blankets, got comfortable, and just. wanted. to. sleep.  Just me and my cats snuggling.

I had peace and cleanliness for 3 weeks.

The night he got home, within minutes, there was mess again.  Suitcase thrown on the floor, clothing pulled out of it and strewn about for him to "pick through" stuff that was clean.  Empty grocery bag left on the counter.  Second suitcase taken upstairs and, again, clothing strewn about the floor.  He took a bath 4 days ago in our upstairs bathroom and his clothes are STILL on the floor.

It might sound small but it hurts in a nagging, annoying way.  He was happy to see me and missed me so much.  I did miss him, but after my 3 weeks of no second-shift, no mess, no demands/expectations, and whole, uninterrupted evenings of me-time rather than snatches of 15-20 minute intervals here and there between cooking and cleaning and managing him, I miss my peace more.

 
Edit: Thanks everyone for the advice and the blunt tough-love.  I tend to internalize a lot and go the route of least resistance by handling things myself, but this instance really put a magnifying glass to stuff that I've just choked down my frustration to deal with.  I'm already in therapy for recently diagnosed anxiety/depression after dealing with some significant health crises affecting close family members, so I will extend the conversation to this.  My mental load just seems to grow by the day, and it feels like I can never really relax even when I'm home.  Admittedly there are days where I wish I could come home from work, grab my cats, and just keep driving - get a new phone and new phone number, never be found again except by people I want to find me.  On the one hand I know he loves me but on the other hand he's just so deficient in so many areas that it takes all of my energy to pick up that slack.

Not sure if it matters but my husband is on the spectrum, possibly with undiagnosed ADHD (I know it doesn't excuse this; there are plenty of people with autism who can manage themselves/their households better than neurotypical people).  Someone mentioned mess-blindness and to an extent I understand that, but I also REALLY don't - you know clothes go in the hamper or on the hanger/closet, not on the floor.

I will not do anything passive aggressive - no dishes in his car - but I will remind him of our deal about me cooking and him cleaning, as well as establish a cleaning schedule rather than just waiting for things to get messy.  When I was younger, my mom and I had a cleaning routine where you could plan on a day of cleaning, but 6 days of rest (which incentivized keeping stuff clean so you had 7 days of rest!) so I'll try that. 

As far as sex goes, I'm doing more exploring of my own body to get a real idea of what I actually like.  I know I can get wet, but with him I generally don't because I'm too busy thinking about other shit that I have to deal with.  That will be another conversation.  I got an IUD a while back after years of being on the Pill and I still have a lot of anxiety about anything going inside me because I subconsciously *feel* anticipatory discomfort down there.  I've been recommended to read "Come as You Are" and "She Comes First," too, so those are on my reading list.

Honestly, he also belongs in the Manbabies of Reddit Hall of Fame thread wherever I posted that.]]> <![CDATA[“AITAH For Moving To An Apt Building With A Concierge [...] So I'm Not Forced To Babysit My Half and Step Siblings”]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1577 Thu, 02 Oct 2025 01:28:21 +0000 Clover]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1577 https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1nvkkk5/aitah_for_moving_to_an_apt_building_with_a/

Woman spent her whole life, including her childhood, being used as a babysitter by her parents, at the neglect of her own life.

HardWrkMksSoftLife I'm sorry I'm being really short with my explanation of what's happening. I'm on my mobile phone. My dad just left the building and he's blowing up my phone while I'm trying to type this out.

So I 23F have spent the last 3yrs being forced to babysit my step and half siblings bcu parents would just drop them off at my place with no warning.  It used to be when I lived with them I was forced to babysit and they didn't care if I missed school or work, etc. There were times when I was a minor I would kiss so much school for having to go back and forth to different parents house (my parents are divorced and remarried) to babysit CPS for involved bc off my truancy from school. Then I was grounded for them being put under investigation. They were forced to send me back to school but then I had to come home (to whoever had custody of me that week) and babaysit, cook, clean, etc. while keeping my grades up so they didn't get in trouble.


Fast forward I moved into my own place when I was 19. My friends dad owned property and knew my situation and gave me a good deal on one of his apartments way below market value . Then my parents would drop my siblings off at my apartment with no warning. I lost my last job because of it and all my parents said was good bc now I could babysit full time. I finally put my foot down and my father attacked me, and back slapped me telling me he didn't care how old I was  I was to do as he said.

My boyfriend told me to move in with him because his apartment building has a concierge where you have to be introduced and the tenant has to agree to let you up. So I sold all my stuff and moved in with my BF, he had me put on the lease after finding a job ( I was so lucky to get this one more pay and benefits) and let my friends dad know the situation,  he let me put if my lease no problem.

My dad was just downstairs with his my step and half siblings from him ( 5 kids ranging in ages 3-10) trying to get up, I told the concierge they are never allowed up and if they don't leave to call the cops. So that's what they did. Now my dad and his wife and blowing up my phone saying I'm and ungrateful asshole for pulling this stunt and my ass is grass when they see me. Im currently waiting for my BF to come home so he can escort me to the police station to make a report and possibly see about getting a restraining order. My father is a really big guy so I'm really scared. I don't think I'm the AH but I just wanted to check and see my BF and friends say I'm not but IDK part of me feels like I am IDKY. So please am I the AH. If I left and holes in what happened you can ask in comments I have the cliff notes version bc of character count.
]]> https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1nvkkk5/aitah_for_moving_to_an_apt_building_with_a/

Woman spent her whole life, including her childhood, being used as a babysitter by her parents, at the neglect of her own life.

HardWrkMksSoftLife I'm sorry I'm being really short with my explanation of what's happening. I'm on my mobile phone. My dad just left the building and he's blowing up my phone while I'm trying to type this out.

So I 23F have spent the last 3yrs being forced to babysit my step and half siblings bcu parents would just drop them off at my place with no warning.  It used to be when I lived with them I was forced to babysit and they didn't care if I missed school or work, etc. There were times when I was a minor I would kiss so much school for having to go back and forth to different parents house (my parents are divorced and remarried) to babysit CPS for involved bc off my truancy from school. Then I was grounded for them being put under investigation. They were forced to send me back to school but then I had to come home (to whoever had custody of me that week) and babaysit, cook, clean, etc. while keeping my grades up so they didn't get in trouble.


Fast forward I moved into my own place when I was 19. My friends dad owned property and knew my situation and gave me a good deal on one of his apartments way below market value . Then my parents would drop my siblings off at my apartment with no warning. I lost my last job because of it and all my parents said was good bc now I could babysit full time. I finally put my foot down and my father attacked me, and back slapped me telling me he didn't care how old I was  I was to do as he said.

My boyfriend told me to move in with him because his apartment building has a concierge where you have to be introduced and the tenant has to agree to let you up. So I sold all my stuff and moved in with my BF, he had me put on the lease after finding a job ( I was so lucky to get this one more pay and benefits) and let my friends dad know the situation,  he let me put if my lease no problem.

My dad was just downstairs with his my step and half siblings from him ( 5 kids ranging in ages 3-10) trying to get up, I told the concierge they are never allowed up and if they don't leave to call the cops. So that's what they did. Now my dad and his wife and blowing up my phone saying I'm and ungrateful asshole for pulling this stunt and my ass is grass when they see me. Im currently waiting for my BF to come home so he can escort me to the police station to make a report and possibly see about getting a restraining order. My father is a really big guy so I'm really scared. I don't think I'm the AH but I just wanted to check and see my BF and friends say I'm not but IDK part of me feels like I am IDKY. So please am I the AH. If I left and holes in what happened you can ask in comments I have the cliff notes version bc of character count.
]]> <![CDATA[Passive voice for women's harassment: subway shirts edition]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1515 Fri, 05 Sep 2025 03:49:12 +0000 Clover]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1515 filthytelestial Headlines about violence against women are often written using passive language. It deliberately removes the perpetrator from the statement. Sometimes it bends over backwards to do this to the point where it sounds like an inanimate object committed the crime all of its own accord.
See this r/TwoXChromosomes thread for more about "passive voice" when it comes to reporting on misogyny: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1grbr0q/the_use_of_passive_language_makes_the_world_less/

I couldn't help but think of this phenomenon when watching a new video about the trend of "subway shirts" in cities in France (and apparently in other cities as well, since when I was trying to find the video on YouTube I found other reports of this "subway shirt trend").

https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/comments/1n6ug0r/women_in_france_wear_subway_shirts_to_avoid_being/

The clip is full of passive voice. There seems to be exactly one instance of a woman who is interviewed stating that men are the ones who called her a prostitute on the subway simply because she wore summer attire. But for the voiceover/news reporter herself narrating the situation for the majority of the clip... you may as well think spooky ghosts are the ones harassing women on the subway.

Men are the ones sexually harassing women on subways!]]> filthytelestial Headlines about violence against women are often written using passive language. It deliberately removes the perpetrator from the statement. Sometimes it bends over backwards to do this to the point where it sounds like an inanimate object committed the crime all of its own accord.
See this r/TwoXChromosomes thread for more about "passive voice" when it comes to reporting on misogyny: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1grbr0q/the_use_of_passive_language_makes_the_world_less/

I couldn't help but think of this phenomenon when watching a new video about the trend of "subway shirts" in cities in France (and apparently in other cities as well, since when I was trying to find the video on YouTube I found other reports of this "subway shirt trend").

https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/comments/1n6ug0r/women_in_france_wear_subway_shirts_to_avoid_being/

The clip is full of passive voice. There seems to be exactly one instance of a woman who is interviewed stating that men are the ones who called her a prostitute on the subway simply because she wore summer attire. But for the voiceover/news reporter herself narrating the situation for the majority of the clip... you may as well think spooky ghosts are the ones harassing women on the subway.

Men are the ones sexually harassing women on subways!]]> <![CDATA[SF landlord wanted only MAGA voters, Israel supporters at open house. It’s entirely legal]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1497 Thu, 28 Aug 2025 15:42:48 +0000 Elsacat]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1497 https://sfstandard.com/2025/08/19/san-francisco-landlord-maga-voters-apartment/

https://archive.ph/3Xecs

Consider that men skew more right-wing than women, and this apartment is in a tech-bro heavy city, with the landlord likely being another tech bro.

It's not strictly discrimination against women, but the likelihood of a woman in that area fitting the landlord's requirement is low. If you're screening for right wing, you're already screening out a lot of women.]]> https://sfstandard.com/2025/08/19/san-francisco-landlord-maga-voters-apartment/

https://archive.ph/3Xecs

Consider that men skew more right-wing than women, and this apartment is in a tech-bro heavy city, with the landlord likely being another tech bro.

It's not strictly discrimination against women, but the likelihood of a woman in that area fitting the landlord's requirement is low. If you're screening for right wing, you're already screening out a lot of women.]]> <![CDATA[“Why do men show so little interest in the inner lives of women?”]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1454 Thu, 07 Aug 2025 00:31:12 +0000 Clover]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1454 https://www.reddit.com/r/emotionalintelligence/comments/1mjcagk/why_do_men_show_so_little_interest_in_the_inner/

Frequently_Abroad_00 It’s rare to meet a man who asks with curiosity about a woman’s stories, feelings, opinions, and other intricacies of a woman’s inner world. My experience has been that I’m asked factual information (where I am from, what do i do), and these questions leave the impression that I’m being screened for “are you good enough”. And then it stops there. As long as I play nice and smile and meet the expectations, there’s little interest in my inner world. I get listened to if I decide to share , but almost nobody appears interested to explore anything, unless I straightforward say I’m upset or my behavior displays it. It makes me feel like I’m there to fulfill a role and, as long as I am pleasant, what happens inside my soul and mind is insignificant. That makes me feel uninteresting but, mostly, lonely, even when there’s someone in my physical presence.

Are men generally not very interested in what’s going on inside a woman’s soul and mind, as long as the outward behavior is what the man hopes to see?

VFTM Because they legitimately do not care

WeenyDancer They don't think women are people

Ambitious_Ad3253 these men see us more like accessories, something you get because it's time for a relationship or they want to settle down and have a woman to cook and start a family with. these kinds of men don't think relationships should be started because you fall in love with the personality and experiences of a person, more like they found someone attractive and stable enough to start a family with when they decide it's time.

Ding ding ding to VTFM and WeenyDancer. 🏅 https://reddit.com/comments/1mjcagk/comment/n79zatl]]> https://www.reddit.com/r/emotionalintelligence/comments/1mjcagk/why_do_men_show_so_little_interest_in_the_inner/

Frequently_Abroad_00 It’s rare to meet a man who asks with curiosity about a woman’s stories, feelings, opinions, and other intricacies of a woman’s inner world. My experience has been that I’m asked factual information (where I am from, what do i do), and these questions leave the impression that I’m being screened for “are you good enough”. And then it stops there. As long as I play nice and smile and meet the expectations, there’s little interest in my inner world. I get listened to if I decide to share , but almost nobody appears interested to explore anything, unless I straightforward say I’m upset or my behavior displays it. It makes me feel like I’m there to fulfill a role and, as long as I am pleasant, what happens inside my soul and mind is insignificant. That makes me feel uninteresting but, mostly, lonely, even when there’s someone in my physical presence.

Are men generally not very interested in what’s going on inside a woman’s soul and mind, as long as the outward behavior is what the man hopes to see?

VFTM Because they legitimately do not care

WeenyDancer They don't think women are people

Ambitious_Ad3253 these men see us more like accessories, something you get because it's time for a relationship or they want to settle down and have a woman to cook and start a family with. these kinds of men don't think relationships should be started because you fall in love with the personality and experiences of a person, more like they found someone attractive and stable enough to start a family with when they decide it's time.

Ding ding ding to VTFM and WeenyDancer. 🏅 https://reddit.com/comments/1mjcagk/comment/n79zatl]]> <![CDATA[Hacks (feat. Jean Smart, on Crave TV)]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1415 Sat, 26 Jul 2025 23:39:02 +0000 ptittle]]> https://clovenhooves.org/showthread.php?tid=1415
(I mean the whole thing is great, but if it's not your cuppa tea, at least watch that episode.)]]>
(I mean the whole thing is great, but if it's not your cuppa tea, at least watch that episode.)]]>