[Split] Debates over Zahra Tabari's reason for execution and Global South geopolitics

clovenhooves The Personal Is Political General [Split] Debates over Zahra Tabari's reason for execution and Global South geopolitics

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Kozlik
Bahhh 💜🐐

397

Nov 29 2025, 8:45 PM

#31

WrongToy, I just... sigh... literally the warning given to you earlier in this thread was partially about minimizing forms of misogyny, with examples of how you've been shitting on women's efforts to help Afghani women by teaching them English/career skills and minimizing the misogyny of Islamic-enforced female garb. In response you... went right on back to doing the same thing. You referenced that USB sticks thing from North Korea with the Afghani women online educations programs "getting these women killed" that I had addressed in a prior thread months ago. (I completely forgot I had given you a warning in that one as well.) Not only are you choosing to default back to the same behavior that gave you a warning in the first place, you're also rehashing previously debunked claims, or at least claims you didn't actually back up when asked to provide sources (re: USB sticks) when I couldn't actually find any myself (even though the burden of proof wasn't on me to do so). In addition to calling women caring about misogynistic Islamic garb "screech[ing] about hijab and niquab"... Really?

I'm glad you feel like you have a place to post your views on Vexxed (and of course on the Saidit /s/GenderCritical forum you moderate), because I hope all women have places to share their thoughts online.

The reason you're getting warned for "your views" is because they're seemingly based in justifying or excusing the misogyny of Islamic culture, when this forum repudiates all forms of [institutional] misogyny. Sometimes these justifications or excuses come with the additional trashing of any woman who does care about those issues. YesYourNigel and LeftFem ended up giving thorough breakdowns on why these views are absurd to espouse on a feminist forum. But not only that, "your views" seem to be consistently wrapped in low-effort posts that semi-often seem to resort to logical fallacies.

Regarding the complaint that on here you're warned for "your views," but on Vexxed you're merely downvoted. You realize the difference between this place and Vexxed is that we don't rely on a stupid down arrow button that subtracts arbitrary internet points from a "comment/user score" to determine the "standard" for thoughtful discussions? Instead we're actually just... expected to have thoughtful discussions and not expect herd mentality to "sweep away" the low effort/poorly constructed takes (which is a failed system). And you realize that, clearly, with the observed "Zionist power user suppression effect there" on Vexxed, that seemingly an upvote/downvote button system for posts and comments clearly doesn't work very well? This forum isn't just a place where "we don't bend over backwards to appease Zionist women" and that's it. No, the misogyny of Islam and Islamic traditions is equally criticized here because it is a feminist issue; just like the colonization of Palestinian land and the genocide of Palestinian people, which includes Palestinian women, is therefore a feminist issue.

I think the attempts to hand-wave away the justification of the misogyny of Islam because "it's used to justify western interventionism" is ridiculous. Who is doing the western interventionism? The All-Powerful Cabal of Feminists™ that secretly control the Global North (through documenting news around misogynistic garb laws on an obscure feminist forum)? No, it's men! Attempting to use feminist women pointing out misogynistic practices of cultures in the Global South as a possible reason for patriarchal Western governments rampaging war on the Middle East is absurd.

Anyway, I think there's been enough of this. You've been warned, in multiple threads at this point, about these issues. I don't want to deal with it anymore. I appreciate your participation and great concern over the Palestinian crisis, but your membership has been revoked for the time being. You can reach out in three months to discuss the possibility of rejoining, if you're still interested.

Kozlik

Bahhh 💜🐐

Nov 29 2025, 8:45 PM #31

spinningIntellect

Nov 30 2025, 4:24 AM

#32

I didn’t realize my post would be so contentious, I’m sorry it devolved into this. I often appreciated Wrongtoy’s comments.

Perhaps I didn’t understand the points Wrongtoy was making, but I thought she was arguing that prioritizing the lives of women was of greater feminist importance than potentially increasing the literacy of those same women?

I didn’t see Islamic apologism from her, I thought she was pointing out (correctly, in my mind) that hijab is not the most pressing issue in a warzone. And that, however this plays out, the Iranian government will spin it to their interests.

If I misread something, I apologize.

spinningIntellect

Nov 30 2025, 4:24 AM #32

YesYourNigel

330

Nov 30 2025, 9:22 AM

#33

Quote:I thought she was arguing that prioritizing the lives of women was of greater feminist importance than potentially increasing the literacy of those same women?

That's kinda like saying that helping women escape abusive relationships is not feminist because that puts them in greater danger. If women stuck in an Islamic hellhole where they can't even get educated want to learn more about the world they shouldn't be denied this just because they could be hurt - I'm pretty sure they know that. But don't get me wrong, I think those points have merit and deserve further discussion, because it's not something a lot of people even think of. And even though pleas to cultural relativism make my skin crawl when used to argue for inherently different and inferior humanity for different women, it is necessary to consider the cultural environment when arranging feminist priorities and practical actions. I think that's why WrongToy managed to stick around so long despite how brainless and anti-feminist many of her points have been, because the forum didn't want to lose this side of the debate.

The problem is that Wrongtoy doesn't really have anything feminist to add. When you go beneath the surface, it's just shallow intersectionalism and stay-in-your-lane cultural relativism. She either completely ignores any counterpoints or accuses them of supporting Western imperialism, preferably in one to two sentences just to show the amount of effort she brings to the table. She will say some blatantly anti-radfem and islamic-apologist things and when questioned, given the benefit of a doubt or disputed in a civilised way, just sit back and repeat the same thing. Cue even more critical user engagement while she rinses and repeats.

Quote:I didn’t see Islamic apologism from her, I thought she was pointing out (correctly, in my mind) that hijab is not the most pressing issue in a warzone.

LIterally no-one is disagreeing with that. But this user has a long history of both Islamic apologia (including defending hijab in non-warzone areas as well) and low-effort posting (saying a thing and then either completely ignoring the counterarguments or just repeating the original claim that's been dismantled). Namely, she relies on trying to paint hijab as freely chosen because choice-feminism and also who cares because war, and also it's the same as Western ideas on breasts as taboo (which she also engaged in choice-feminism or possibly even bioessentialism for, mind you). All of these are incompatible with radical feminism.

Now, as previously mentioned, these points partially have merit - hijab is frequently portrayed as some completely distinct incomprehensible concept unique to Islam, when really it's just a more extended version of our more familiar Christian patriarchal backwardness. There is also truth in the fact that Islamic misogyny is used as an excuse by also-misogynistic Western powers to invade and exploit these countries. All of these are valuable, nay, important points to bring up because they're frequently used by opposing parties to work against women's rights. And it's something she's had plenty of opportunity to discuss because users here are actually open to it and not just a bunch of Vexxed-style downvotedownvotedownvote Zionist conservatives that she keeps characterising us as, just because we have eyes and are able to recognise that states that make "wife's disobedience" legally punishable might, ya know, be kind of misogynistic or dare I say more misogynistic than the West.

Instead she responds to criticism of hijab and full-on theocratic Islamic governments with "Jay Keen has been seen berating hijabi", saying "women freely wear it even after being "liberated” to the west" (after it has been pointed out that actually hijab has been pushed back on them as a larger move towards religious nationalism), characterising criticism of hijab as "screeching about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism" and "disputes over women and their headscarves is a fetish among resident Zionists who obviously permeate WoLF vs filia". Either she sugarcoats Islamic misogyny or, if Islamic misogyny is too egregious to sugarcoat, derails from it with whataboutisms or just straight up ignores it and repeats the original claim or appeals to emotion. There is more, but I'd just be repeating myself because I already pointed this out in my previous comments. If you can't see the whataboutisms, derailing and strawmen at this point, it's because you don't want to see them.

This all goes beyond adding context or trying to keep feminist priorities straight and into apologia and denial that a blatantly misogynistic practice is misogynistic. Again, she's had plenty of opportunities to actually expand on her views and address criticisms, and every time she's either acted dumb, ignored it or straight up said sus shit. Just, no, if you can't even acknowledge that hijab and theocratic Islamic governments are misogynistic despite the fact that they'll literally spell it out for you, you don't belong on a radfem forum.

Edited Dec 1 2025, 9:34 AM by YesYourNigel.

YesYourNigel

Nov 30 2025, 9:22 AM #33

Quote:I thought she was arguing that prioritizing the lives of women was of greater feminist importance than potentially increasing the literacy of those same women?

Quote:I didn’t see Islamic apologism from her, I thought she was pointing out (correctly, in my mind) that hijab is not the most pressing issue in a warzone.

Clover
Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

1,529

Dec 1 2025, 5:05 AM

#34

@spinningIntellect: I don't disagree with anything you've said (except maybe to jokingly suggest you don't need to apologize so much -- reminds me of what a professor at university told me about how women unnecessarily apologize too much and how she herself was working on stopping that).

YYN pretty much gives a thorough breakdown of why she was banned, and in the beginning, it didn't really have to do with this thread (later on as the responses grew, it did). I do think Polly reacted surprisingly strongly/uncivilly to what WT wrote, but it seemed to me it was a blow-up over a chronic persistent type of posting behavior, which YYN details: low effort posts, posts that defend/minimize misogynistic institutions/cultural practices, posts that trash efforts to help women or trash women who criticize said misogynistic institutions, and persistently repeating all of those things.

Like YYN also says, part of the reason I let these things slide for a while, is because, well, actually, two reasons:

The same issue Ovarit/Vexxed had where "technically" she wasn't doing anything rule-breaking, but considering how that kind of modding irritates me to no end, I didn't understand why I was letting it slide on here once it kinda "blew up" in the original thread and I realized what was happening. (Since this incident, I've been doing more reading on this stuff, and I found this concept of "civil POV pushing" which is documented in meta Wikipedia discussions, which I think kind of illuminates this issue.)
What YYN said about "I think that's why WrongToy managed to stick around so long [...], because we don't want to lose this side of the debate. [...] [T]hese points patrially have merit - hijab is frequently portrayed as some completely distinct incomprehensible concept unique to Islam, when really it's just a more extended version of our more familiar Christian patriarchal backwardness. There is also truth in the fact that Islamic misogyny is used as an excuse by also-misogynistic Western powers to invade and exploit these countries. All of these are valuable, nay, important points to bring up because they're frequently used by opposing parties to work against women's rights." WrongToy gave points against these things, different perspectives, and I did appreciate that.

The issue was the responses she gave when engaging in a debate with her were largely not matching the effort given in response, persistently, across multiple instances, and the same poor arguments would then just be repeated in other parts of the forum. I even recall replying to one of those parroted points I found elsewhere with "this was already debated in this other thread here" because I wasn't understanding the point of just taking the same statements that were already debated and just pasting them elsewhere. If it was getting to the point where other users started to get annoyed about it, some even not participating as much because of it, some started to break civility rules in frustration about it, well, there's clearly a limit to tolerance for repetitive low-effort arguments.

Like I mention in my mod-ban-message, unlike a Reddit-style platform where low-quality content can potentially be whisked away in the bottom of a discussion via the community using downvotes, this is an old-school discussion forum and that just doesn't happen. That, paired with my disdain of censoring people's posts via deletions, leads to a different modding approach than one might use on vote-score-sorting social media and/or delete-happy moderating: having them no longer post if they can't post in a productive manner. Which honestly is kinda like mega-censorship in a way, which kinda sucks, but I'm trying to at least be transparent about it when it happens.

I'm open to more discussions about this in the Meta forum. It seems I'm currently trying to balance between "letting people make low effort arguments" versus "not discouraging people from leaving due to having to constantly put up with low effort arguments."

(In the future, there might actually be an alternative to banning that is community-regulated, via using some special reaction in the soon-to-be-added reactions plugin, where if a post gets enough of some "low effort" reaction, it just gets collapsed. I know reddit does this with comments that get a low score threshold. It'd prevent censorship while also potentially giving the community a way to "self-moderate." Idk. It's just a random hypothetical without much thought right now, it'd warrant a bigger discussion about if the community wants it and also feasibility to implement.)

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Clover

Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

Dec 1 2025, 5:05 AM #34

The same issue Ovarit/Vexxed had where "technically" she wasn't doing anything rule-breaking, but considering how that kind of modding irritates me to no end, I didn't understand why I was letting it slide on here once it kinda "blew up" in the original thread and I realized what was happening. (Since this incident, I've been doing more reading on this stuff, and I found this concept of "civil POV pushing" which is documented in meta Wikipedia discussions, which I think kind of illuminates this issue.)
What YYN said about "I think that's why WrongToy managed to stick around so long [...], because we don't want to lose this side of the debate. [...] [T]hese points patrially have merit - hijab is frequently portrayed as some completely distinct incomprehensible concept unique to Islam, when really it's just a more extended version of our more familiar Christian patriarchal backwardness. There is also truth in the fact that Islamic misogyny is used as an excuse by also-misogynistic Western powers to invade and exploit these countries. All of these are valuable, nay, important points to bring up because they're frequently used by opposing parties to work against women's rights." WrongToy gave points against these things, different perspectives, and I did appreciate that.

Kozlik's regular member account. 🍀🐐

Impress Polly
The kind they warned you about.

183

Dec 4 2025, 7:56 PM

#35

(Nov 30 2025, 4:24 AM)spinningIntellect I didn’t realize my post would be so contentious, I’m sorry it devolved into this. I often appreciated Wrongtoy’s comments.

Perhaps I didn’t understand the points Wrongtoy was making, but I thought she was arguing that prioritizing the lives of women was of greater feminist importance than potentially increasing the literacy of those same women?

I didn’t see Islamic apologism from her, I thought she was pointing out (correctly, in my mind) that hijab is not the most pressing issue in a warzone. And that, however this plays out, the Iranian government will spin it to their interests.

If I misread something, I apologize.

Sorry I ruined your thread! :catblushy:

Thankfully, Clover has revived the original version and offered some worthwhile updates and elaboration here. I'm following that thread. Anyway, since I caused the disruption, I figure I should put a bow on this. 'Tis the season after all.

To me, reading Wrongtoy's posts was like hearing Megyn Kelly explain how Jeffrey Epstein supposedly wasn't a pedo because his victims were over the age of 8: it was equal parts disingenuous and infuriating. "Why the fuck would you say that unless you were trying, PATHETICALLY, to justify it??! :meowknife:

" was a common thought that I had when reading her posts, in other words. I'm not just talking about on your thread, I'm talking like in general.

It took me a while after I first joined in the summer to get to a place where I remembered most everybody by screen name and at first Wrongtoy's posts didn't really stand out to me because I expect most radical feminists to be anti-Zionists and certainly against the genociding of Gaza (as am I, incidentally). In time though, I began to notice a strikingly anti-female vibe from her posts. This post, implying that women here should shut up about the Taliban blocking efforts to rescue female victims of the September earthquakes because foreign conservative-leaning news outlets also objected -- implying that anything other than silence from the world in response to thousands of women being deliberately left under the rubble to die was a kind of imperialist act -- was the one that fundamentally changed my view of her. From that point on, I knew what her game was and she never said anything to contradict my mental assessment. When she later went on to proclaim that there was no rape on October the 7th of 2023 and gave the Iranian clerical establishment the credit for the lifting of the hijab mandate rather than the women's movement and the broader Iranian youth movement that fought against them (sometimes physically, of necessity) toward the realization of such reforms and much more (like the end of the theocracy) for years...y'know I just laughed. I thought about responding to several other posts of hers (one time I actually did and deleted my harsh reply before I guess anyone noticed) until finally I just couldn't stop myself after she rationalized away the Taliban's new burqa requirement for health care as somehow constituting progress for Afghan women.

Yes, Wrongtoy was/is a sorry, pickme-ass apologist for political Islam. She will say anything to defend it, no matter how brazenly dishonest, idiotic, or just plain misogynistic. In fact, she never had one good word to say about any woman anywhere that I can remember. Literally all she ever did here that I can recall was defend and justify the rape, destruction, and forced concealment of women's bodies (the latter quite obsessively; she really had a way of projecting her own obsession with the subject of Islamic religious garb onto the rest of us) and rail tirelessly against every feminist and women's rights activist she could possibly think of, of any stripe, but especially radical feminists. Her entire purpose for being here seemed to be to show the myriad ways in which the women's movement has failed Islam. Never would she think to ask whether Islam might have failed women here, there, or, y'know, everywhere.

When challenged over her endorsement of this elderly woman's execution on the basis of a 10-minute BS trial in which she could scarcely defend herself, she just deftly switched subjects to the more sympathetic topic of the Gaza War in the hopes that no one would notice the obvious dodge. When that didn't work out so well, it was time to switch topics again, this time to Kellie Jay Keen's makeup. That's what you do when you can't answer the challenges before you: you try to change the subject to one you think is more favorable.

Wrongtoy isn't the only contributor here with something like this pattern of behavior, but was, IMO, the most consistent and egregious of them. It got pretty irritating to me that we just continued to tolerate it and nobody was saying anything. So again, sorry to ruin your thread, but I honestly still feel like something had to be said. But anyway, like I said earlier in this post, things are back on track now on the linked thread!

[/SUBJECT]

Edited Dec 6 2025, 12:00 AM by Impress Polly.

Impress Polly

The kind they warned you about.

Dec 4 2025, 7:56 PM #35

(Nov 30 2025, 4:24 AM)spinningIntellect I didn’t realize my post would be so contentious, I’m sorry it devolved into this. I often appreciated Wrongtoy’s comments.

Perhaps I didn’t understand the points Wrongtoy was making, but I thought she was arguing that prioritizing the lives of women was of greater feminist importance than potentially increasing the literacy of those same women?

I didn’t see Islamic apologism from her, I thought she was pointing out (correctly, in my mind) that hijab is not the most pressing issue in a warzone. And that, however this plays out, the Iranian government will spin it to their interests.

If I misread something, I apologize.

Sorry I ruined your thread! :catblushy:

Clover
Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

1,529

Dec 6 2025, 5:57 PM

#36

Okay, going back into this thread to wrap up some old responses and also add like one new one.

The new response for Polly:

(Dec 4 2025, 7:56 PM)Impress Polly Yes, Wrongtoy was/is a sorry, pickme-ass apologist for political Islam.

There is no need for this, please (calling other members [even if former] "pick-mes" or any other names, this goes against rule 1). I think it's been done twice now, the first time I gave a pass because I understand we don't really have any safeguards against the chronic insincere/bad faith/low effort participation you were reacting to, but this is the second time. She is already banned for like three months and I don't know how to handle return a potential to membership status tbh so probably even longer while the community figures that out.

And mainly the response to an older post from alefia:

(Nov 24 2025, 5:55 AM)alefia Thank you for correcting me on Wrongtoy's background. How was/is Korea not under American imperialist fire?

Perhaps it was/is, but that appears to be a completely different subject.

(Nov 24 2025, 5:55 AM)alefia LeftFem's comments fit the description of a "good Arab"

This sentence is bizarre to me. It's initially written as if it's about her comment, but it uses a noun in the conclusion. I was somewhat willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this and didn't feel like checking the article tbh, but after LeftFem pointed out that she read it and what it was about and how it doesn't line up, and then I read it, it doesn't seem right to dismiss LeftFem's comment with that. It doesn't make sense, as LeftFem details.

Her comments were initially dismissed by you as "white/Western feminist", but once it was pointed out she was born and lived in that region, which was the initial justification for all of us needing to "STFU and listen" to WrongToy, the dismissal switched to her comment being "Good Arab," which ended up not even being the correct label..? It's fine to be skeptical about people's potential ulterior motives, but try not to simply resort to labeling comments as labels you think are "bad" ie. "white/Western feminist", "Good Arab" as the way to make your point.

Additionally probably worth pointing out here that:

Quote:Moreover, anyone who calls for foreign intervention in their country is a traitor to the nation.

Women over nations. I don't care about women being "traitors" to nations. The vast majority of nations are misogynistic and patriarchal, it's hard to feign any sympathy for them. I only care when women are brutalized, raped, and murdered, which... whew let me tell you, what demographic of any nation is doing the majority of that to any other nation's—or even to their own nation's—women (hint: it's the demographic that has penises).

(Nov 24 2025, 5:55 AM)alefia You say "I don't support organizations that murder innocent people." Innocent according to whom? Are we going to make judgments based on which organizations have killed more civilians? Then we should start with the USA/EU/UK using sanctions as a weapon of war and interventions to guarantee their politico-economical domination in the Global South.

Absolutely, yeah sure, they all suck. We should condem all of them. USA/EU/UK should absolutely stop fucking with the Middle Eastern region and causing bloodshed and destruction. (Also what YYN said about "you can both recognise Islamic theocracies for the misogynistic shitholes that they are, and also not support Western imperialism".)

(Nov 24 2025, 5:55 AM)alefia To any communist you sound ridiculous

lol i don't care. But those books sound cool, thank you for the reading recommendations.

Edited Dec 6 2025, 6:02 PM by Clover.

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Clover

Kozlik's regular account 🍀🐐

Dec 6 2025, 5:57 PM #36

Okay, going back into this thread to wrap up some old responses and also add like one new one.

The new response for Polly:

(Dec 4 2025, 7:56 PM)Impress Polly Yes, Wrongtoy was/is a sorry, pickme-ass apologist for political Islam.

(Nov 24 2025, 5:55 AM)alefia Thank you for correcting me on Wrongtoy's background. How was/is Korea not under American imperialist fire?

Perhaps it was/is, but that appears to be a completely different subject.

(Nov 24 2025, 5:55 AM)alefia LeftFem's comments fit the description of a "good Arab"

Quote:Moreover, anyone who calls for foreign intervention in their country is a traitor to the nation.

(Nov 24 2025, 5:55 AM)alefia You say "I don't support organizations that murder innocent people." Innocent according to whom? Are we going to make judgments based on which organizations have killed more civilians? Then we should start with the USA/EU/UK using sanctions as a weapon of war and interventions to guarantee their politico-economical domination in the Global South.

(Nov 24 2025, 5:55 AM)alefia To any communist you sound ridiculous

lol i don't care. But those books sound cool, thank you for the reading recommendations.

Kozlik's regular member account. 🍀🐐

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