(Jan 10 2025, 12:55 PM)Possum But university-educated women in western countries are significantly less brainwashed than, say, an illiterate woman living under Taliban control. I just can't see educated women voting for Trump as anything other than "fuck you I wanna be on top". They have the ability to read and think. They have the ability to make choices and they choose the worst possible
University-educated women were brought up in traditional families, consumed male-centric media, dated men whose misogyny they were told to overlook because of "love" and "understanding" or whose misogyny is straight up fetishised as attractive by our culture, are employed by creepy male bosses, backstabbed by male colleagues, friends and family who will always side with men (unless an individual man damages their property), and gaslit by other traumatized women that this is all normal, are taught by male teachers in male-dominated subjects, live in a world where feminazis are crazy bitches persecuting all men over the sins of the 0,00001% (despite paradoxically also being blamed if they get hurt by men because duh ofc men will abuse you
Being educated in a man's world doesn't mean you'll see through the male bs. Why would you? Even the women who are educated with specific focus on feminism and gender, who really should know better, will tell you prostitution and fetishised violence over women is sexual liberation and that rape of men is a pressing feminist issue. If people who make feminism their degree can't look past men's dicks, why would someone educated in sth like meteorology have any better idea? Hell, even history or law enforcement, which should make male abuse of women blatantly obvious, is rife with victim blaming, denial and justifications for men. There is simply no environment in our society aside from perhaps radical feminist spaces (which are a tiny, vilified niche compared to liberal feminism) that allows women to decenter men completely. Yes, you have to be extra deluded, self-destructive and stupid to vote for Trump, but male-backed education isn't enough to get women to look past patriarchal biases.
Quote:yes if you are educated and financially stable you can live a pretty normal life without having to suck up to men
Not really. Men run things, and you can't openly challenge this unless you want to get into trouble for being "difficult" and "political". Even traditionally female professions have men in charge, so having your life stalled and sabotaged by male bs and misogyny is unavoidable, unless you never intend to leave the house (which is exactly the appeal for tradwives).
Besides, you can do plenty of things, but people don't because they want to lead a normal life. They want a partner and a family and friends with whom they can go out for coffee and talk about life instead of having them think they're crazy militant tinfoil-hat weirdos. Just because women aren't fully legally subhuman does not mean they are in a state where they can freely entertain feminism. It's not like all women have been trying to lead the exact same lives as men all along and the only thing keeping them from it was men holding them at gunpoint. We needed decades for women to start inching their way into areas that were denied to them even after the legal stops were lifted because they didn't think they deserved it, and were offput by societal discouragement.
Quote:Even if we removed men from the equation I think we would still organize ourselves into these castes of "good woman who deserves to exploit" vs "bad woman who deserves to be exploited.".
This simply isn't how it plays out. Unlike male communities, the easiest thing to do for women is to get them to prioritise every other group but themselves and we see this play out again and again (black women prioritise the (male) black community over female rights, gender criticals prioritise anti-trans and conservative men over female rights, liberal feminists prioritise trans/male rights/racism/kink/ANYTHING over female rights etc.). This is both due to men running things and also women's socialisation to always put themselves last because they're seen as the least important, least notable part of society (unless there's a man who owns them).
Quote:Women in racist communities are raised to believe they deserve to exploit and oppress WOC.
How? From everything I've seen, white women's racism is primarily motivated by wanting protection from brown men's violence over women, and white men, the same men who cover for their fellow rapists and abusers, allow and encourage these complaints instead of wailing about misandry because under white supremacism they don't want brown men "stealing and ruining their white women". White men's misogyny is so normalised that you can't complain about it without it being "extremist" and "political", and additionally a lot of men of colour come from cultures and religions where far worse treatment of women is openly encouraged. They objectively are worse, and this gets used both to cover up their misogyny under accusations of racism and to let white men off the hook.
Quote:there's more nuance to it than women are always acting out of brainwashing or desire for safety. I think a lot of these women are motivated by a desire to dominate 'lesser' women, not just a desire to protect themselves.
What does any woman personally get from calling other women whores? What benefit is there in advocating against rapists and domestic abusers being punished and ostracized? All these women get assaulted, abused and walked over just like you and me, maybe even more given how they don't allow themselves to call out the common pattern behind male abuse. They didn't luck out in any way. Why would any supposedly selfish woman want things that do nothing but harm her? Why don't any selfish women advocate for female supremacism or exterminating men or anything that would improve their lives? This is completely paradoxical, and just saying "idk, they just like feeling superior I guess" doesn't explain it.
This hierarchy makes absolutely no sense for women because it was built by men for measurable male benefit. Which is also why it's the first thing women ditch when they build their own movements (though male bs creeps in regardless via other routes) and the biggest problem becomes not the other supremacist movements packaged in, but the lack of any sense of self-worth that would put women's rights over any man with a sob story.
You don't need to add nuance in the form of paradoxical motivations for unnecessary complexity. Women prioritise misogynistic male interests because they live in a male-run world where worth and values rely entirely on male approval, where they put up with dehumanisation and abuse all their lives to the point where it's their main anxiety and limitation on their day-to-day life, and where the most acceptable role for them is one of quiet self-sacrificing servitude and obedience unless they raise their voices to parrot men. That's it. Women do this as a response to the same predictable patriarchal pressures that have been at play for centuries, every moment of our lives. They didn't independently invent spitefully self-destructive ideologies, nor is this down to individual women being evil people.
Quote:many liberal women have a similar attitude but instead of mommy-wife vs single-wh*re it's more like cool-sexy vs lame-prude.
Again, what reason do they have to care about any of this? What benefit is there to a woman, doubly so a straight women, if another woman sleeps around or doesn't have enough kink in her life? This whole hierarchy breaks down the second you remove men from the equation and try to make it about some vague individual sense of superiority that isn't being fulfilled or rewarded outside of just "man likes you, man abuses you less than men who don't know you", the deal that women have been marketed for as long as patriarchy has existed. Any sense of superiority is fundamentally rooted in trying to appeal to
male hierarchies.
Libfems prioritise men because they're still trying to get respect and a sense of normalcy from inside a patriarchal system, similar to why conservative women do it. Both try to sell the idea of a happy tradwife/happy hooker, and both revolve their repulsion of the other around this false dichotomy. It's not that libfems hate prudes for any personal benefit, it's that they themselves don't want to fall into the Spinster Abyss of Lost Souls. They want to still stay relevant to men and have a voice, but also not be abused. But they don't even conceive of a possibility that isn't still rooted in Madonna-wh*re dichotomy because that's the only thing that society can conceive of. If women aren't property for men, then they'd naturally want to be "free" prostitutes. There is no third alternative.
Quote:maybe I'm creating my own madonna/wh*re hierarchy with my women who hate women vs women who don't hate women categories.
That's a valid position though - people who demand destruction of women's rights are lesser than those who don't because what they're doing it immoral. That degree of shittiness should reflect badly on the person. That's different from deplorable anti-human hierarchies where someone is lesser solely due to "man dick no like".
Quote:Women are human and humans can be petty, vindictive, sadistic, and stupid.
So why aren't they like this against men? Why does it ALWAYS screw women over? Even the most selfish, self-centered woman does this and directs her ire solely at other women while letting the men who abuse her off the hook. Why would a self-centered woman not want to turn on the men harming her? If women are just as selfish, why isn't the lowest-common-denominator feminism the kind that advocates a reverse-patriarchy with a class of legally enslaved men who need to coddle, serve and worship women under threat of violence, starvation and extermination, if all this women's anger and pettiness have nothing to do with patriarchal brainwashing? I don't see anything human about prioritising your abuser's benefits instead of your own, in fact I find that decidedly artificial.
Quote:There isn't always a sympathetic reason behind women hating women
To clarify, I'm not trying to characterise conservative women's stupidity, male pandering, sense of superiority and self-destructiveness as sympathetic in any way and please don't feel like you need to give them some benefit of a doubt or avoid characterising them as utter self-absorbed bootlicking shitheads that they are. I find them worthy of the lowest circle of hell alongside butch TIFs trying to throw women under the bus in exchange for male headpats.
But shitty people still function within the confines of our society and recognising what drives them makes it more effective to either challenge them or to predict their irrational behaviour. My alarm bells go off when I see women characterised as responsible in any way for the patriarchy, when in reality women's opinions and behaviour, by design, have 0 influence on male supremacism. If every single woman turned turbo-feminist tomorrow, it wouldn't affect men because men listen to other men, that's the whole point of male supremacism. But when every man was a male-supremacist, most women were as well. It's obvious to see why.
Conservative women are rooted in the exact same patriarchal limitations we're all subject to. They didn't set this system up, and they get assaulted, degraded, raped, beaten, silenced just as much as any woman does. They just think that women don't deserve any better and that forcing men to change is cruel and mean and misandrist, so you consistently see them idolise this idea of a husband who'll protect them from neverending abuse from other men. Yes, they play the Madonna-wh*re game and try to profit off of this system to the detriment of "lesser" women who they see as enemies rather than the men, but it all goes back to the fact that this is the only socially acceptable "out" for them from a lifetime of normalised abuse by men.
Not only is this an "out", there is also a measure of "respect" (though I hesitate to call it such) for mothers, unlike all those other spinsters who don't want to grow up and marry and birth babies. This is (delusionally) seen as the only thing that men will step aside to respect women for, unlike every job or opinion, or area of interest where men are automatically better. But again it comes back to this being the only acceptable "out" from endless patriarchal degradation.
Quote:I think his mother would develop patriarchal attitudes about what her son deserves because there's an instinct with parents to have their child succeed
Why wouldn't mothers develop female-supremacist ideas for her daughters and other women, doubly so because they're a lot more palatable and empowering to her as a woman herself? What about both sons and daughters? Do they get an equal patriarchal-matriarchal split?
The patriarchy isn't this individualistic idea that you want a man who you happen to be close to to succeed, it's that ALL men have more authority, competence and worth than women by virtue of being male. Patriarchy isn't something one single family can decide on its own, it's not something that happens by men coincidentally doing better or being more beloved and it definitely wasn't established by women.
Quote:I think if her son raped a woman, even without patriarchy she'd lean into rape myths about how her baby boy didn't do anything wrong because no parent wants to view their child as a monster.
So why do so many mothers tell their daughters to not cause a scene when they get assaulted or raped? The same mothers who were also told that when they themselves experienced this? Where is their parental protective instinct then?
ofc people will always default to biases and irrational emotional reactions, but these are obviously based in personal benefit. This is different from specifically ideological, supremacist ideas that are openly destructive to women and completely antithetical to their well-being, but that women paradoxically support anyway. This paradox isn't present in men - every cause they support and get invested in always has obvious benefits to them personally.
Quote:For the record I enjoyed your comment even though I disagree with a lot of it. I like that I can argue with you on this forum without getting a thousand downvotes or being dogpiled lol.
Yeah, I mean, it's refreshing that we can count on people to agree that conservative women are short-sighted idiots, as any woman with an inkling of self respect would. We just disagree on the exact reasoning guiding their behaviour. I don't think I could be civil if I had to hear another round of whataboutism trying to justify Trump voters by acting as if liberals are forcing them into it.
