[Split] Debates over Zahra Tabari's reason for execution and Global South geopolitics
[Split] Debates over Zahra Tabari's reason for execution and Global South geopolitics
Context: this thread was split from the original thread "URGENT: A Matter of Life and Death"
I will add this here as most of the context as to why I believe the way I do has been split into this thread.
It would be great if protesting and lobbying and western exposure caused Iran to realize that martyring her is not in their self interest. Life without parole in solitary however is. How is America going to say anything about it when they do the same thing, let alone Israel? The immediate potential crisis of her execution would be averted. At. 68, she might not last long in solitary but that’s true of cons in America, too.
@clover, this is in response to your mod warning thread.
Encouraging western women to communicate directly with Afghan girls or young women is about as safe as dropping usb sticks of western media was for kids in North Korea. When the people whom you’re trying to help may as well be caught dead if caught accepting said help, I question how that’s helping at all.
Hijab is hardly the first priority for women in the global south afflicted by existentials of war and starvation. No Palestinian woman clutching her hijab in the wind and cold is sorry she has one right now. As I pointed out on Vexxed when they opened women’s liberation circle, you can be on the side of filia who allowed a Palestinian woman to sell homemade hijab, or you can be on the side of wolf that unraveled a “rape is not resistance” banner debunked by Haaretz itself. More than a few of us have noticed the Zionist power user suppression effect there, but unlike here, i wasn’t ever warned about my views, just downvoted. My comment is now in positive territory. Considering the deserved critiques of certain vexxed power users, this is very good news.
Quote:No Palestinian woman clutching her hijab in the wind and cold is sorry she has one right now
Quote:As I pointed out on Vexxed when they opened women’s liberation circle, you can be on the side of filia who allowed a Palestinian woman to sell homemade hijab, or you can be on the side of wolf that unraveled a “rape is not resistance” banner debunked by Haaretz itself.
Quote:And disputes over women and their headscarves is a fetish among resident Zionists who obviously permeate WoLF vs filia.
Quote:You say "I don't support organizations that murder innocent people." Innocent according to whom? Are we going to make judgments based on which organizations have killed more civilians? Then we should start with the USA/EU/UK using sanctions as a weapon of war and interventions to guarantee their politico-economical domination in the Global South.
Quote:Resistance organizations do not emerge from a vacuum
Quote:No Palestinian woman clutching her hijab in the wind and cold is sorry she has one right now
Quote:As I pointed out on Vexxed when they opened women’s liberation circle, you can be on the side of filia who allowed a Palestinian woman to sell homemade hijab, or you can be on the side of wolf that unraveled a “rape is not resistance” banner debunked by Haaretz itself.
Quote:And disputes over women and their headscarves is a fetish among resident Zionists who obviously permeate WoLF vs filia.
Quote:You say "I don't support organizations that murder innocent people." Innocent according to whom? Are we going to make judgments based on which organizations have killed more civilians? Then we should start with the USA/EU/UK using sanctions as a weapon of war and interventions to guarantee their politico-economical domination in the Global South.
Quote:Resistance organizations do not emerge from a vacuum
@yesyournigel Hind Khoudary is Gaza’s most famous living war journalist and has appeared without hijab for over two years now. She was doing journalism even before Oct 7, legally, as were those who wore hijab. Palestinian women have LONG been allowed to pursue journalism and engineering and medicine. So have Iranian women.
The last thing these women need are amerisrseli interests blowing up their lives and then saying they had to do it to liberate women from the scarf on their head that women freely wear even after being “liberated” to to the west. But sure, let’s screech about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism that’s been great for global south women. The removal of the scarf solves all their problems,. As if it’s not at least a tiny bit a proxy?
Feminism relational to the global south, ot to the resistance, or to brics, will necessarily present differently from western feminism.
(Nov 28 2025, 9:14 PM)Wrongtoy The last thing these women need are amerisrseli interests blowing up their lives and then saying they had to do it to liberate women from the scarf on their head that women freely wear even after being “liberated” to to the west. But sure, let’s screech about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism that’s been great for global south women. The removal of the scarf solves all their problems,. As if it’s not at least a tiny bit a proxy?
Quote:Hamas has ordered female lawyers in the Gaza Strip to wear the headscarf in court, Palestinian officials said on Sunday.
(Nov 28 2025, 9:14 PM)Wrongtoy The last thing these women need are amerisrseli interests blowing up their lives and then saying they had to do it to liberate women from the scarf on their head that women freely wear even after being “liberated” to to the west. But sure, let’s screech about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism that’s been great for global south women. The removal of the scarf solves all their problems,. As if it’s not at least a tiny bit a proxy?
Quote:Hamas has ordered female lawyers in the Gaza Strip to wear the headscarf in court, Palestinian officials said on Sunday.
(Nov 28 2025, 9:14 PM)Wrongtoy @yesyournigel Hind Khoudary is Gaza’s most famous living war journalist and has appeared without hijab for over two years nowEvery time Islamic misogyny is pointed out, you ignore most of it, rely on heavily cherrypicked examples (see, this one woman is allowed to not wear hijab, which also this proves hijab is freely chosen by all the women who do wear it), derail and keep making appeals over how something isn't misogynistic as long as women have bigger problems in life, or pull up false dichotomies. A radfem forum should have rules against this shit.
Quote:The last thing these women need are amerisrseli interests blowing up their lives and then saying they had to do it to liberate women from the scarf on their head that women freely wear even after being “liberated” to to the west.
Quote:But sure, let’s screech about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism that’s been great for global south women. The removal of the scarf solves all their problems,. As if it’s not at least a tiny bit a proxy?
Quote:Feminism relational to the global south, ot to the resistance, or to brics, will necessarily present differently from western feminism.
(Nov 28 2025, 9:14 PM)Wrongtoy @yesyournigel Hind Khoudary is Gaza’s most famous living war journalist and has appeared without hijab for over two years nowEvery time Islamic misogyny is pointed out, you ignore most of it, rely on heavily cherrypicked examples (see, this one woman is allowed to not wear hijab, which also this proves hijab is freely chosen by all the women who do wear it), derail and keep making appeals over how something isn't misogynistic as long as women have bigger problems in life, or pull up false dichotomies. A radfem forum should have rules against this shit.
Quote:The last thing these women need are amerisrseli interests blowing up their lives and then saying they had to do it to liberate women from the scarf on their head that women freely wear even after being “liberated” to to the west.
Quote:But sure, let’s screech about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism that’s been great for global south women. The removal of the scarf solves all their problems,. As if it’s not at least a tiny bit a proxy?
Quote:Feminism relational to the global south, ot to the resistance, or to brics, will necessarily present differently from western feminism.
(Nov 29 2025, 9:08 AM)YesYourNigel(Nov 28 2025, 9:14 PM)Wrongtoy @yesyournigel Hind Khoudary is Gaza’s most famous living war journalist and has appeared without hijab for over two years nowEvery time Islamic misogyny is pointed out, you ignore most of it, rely on heavily cherrypicked examples (see, this one woman is allowed to not wear hijab, which also this proves hijab is freely chosen by all the women who do wear it), derail and keep making appeals over how something isn't misogynistic as long as women have bigger problems in life, or pull up false dichotomies. A radfem forum should have rules against this shit.
What is the point you are trying to make by cherrypicking a few women who don't wear headscarves? That hijab doesn't exist there? That it's not illegal to forego it? That theocratic Islamic governments like Hamas are not misogynistic? I can respect wanting to create a clearer picture of exactly what Iran and Gaza (and broadly Palestine, which is different from Hamas-lead Gaza) cultures are like instead of defaulting to the Saudi Arabia characterisation, but there's a massive difference between adding nuance, and engaging in apologia via cherrypicking, denial and claiming everything is taken out of context. It's not like Hamas are subtle about their commitment to religious fundamentalism, regardless of how strongly they enforce it in practice. Trump still hasn't enforced even a part of his christofascist ideology, but that doesn't mean he and his cronies aren't misogynistic.
A few women being allowed flexibility with hijab does not prove hijab is a figment of imagination or freely chosen. Hijab was brought back in the first place (forcefully) as part of a general move away from secularization and towards religious nationalism. You seem to be attacking strawmen that portray Gaza as akin to Saudi Arabia, but just because a place is not as extreme as another in terms of misogyny, doesn't mean it's not misogynistic (which is a fallacy called whataboutism). After all, islamic countries and their degree of misogyny are commonly used by Western men to prove that misogyny isn't a thing in the West, just because it's not as extreme.
Quote:The last thing these women need are amerisrseli interests blowing up their lives and then saying they had to do it to liberate women from the scarf on their head that women freely wear even after being “liberated” to to the west.
I think the last thing they need is their husbands legally punishing them for disobedience because they left the house without their permission.
Quote:But sure, let’s screech about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism that’s been great for global south women. The removal of the scarf solves all their problems,. As if it’s not at least a tiny bit a proxy?
And again, the same false dichotomy: either support Islamic misogyny and primitivism, or support military invasions to fuel the West's oil-based interests and proxy wars with Russia.
I would say hijab is a pretty good indicator of how far along an Islamic country is, yes. It's not that removing the scarf makes the country automatically progressive, it's that the scarf is forced upon women as part of general religious primitivism.
Quote:Feminism relational to the global south, ot to the resistance, or to brics, will necessarily present differently from western feminism.
So, this is liberal cultural relativism that is at odds with radical feminism. Women's humanity does not look different depending on which culture you're in, nor should nationalistic religious norms trump women's rights. The fact that women in many places have to take a back seat to male-lead nationalistic fervor because feminist consciousness is so undeveloped, or the human rights abuses that men put them through are so extreme that they need to focus on the worst of it, does not prove that nationalistic religious interests are freely prioritised by women. In fact, I would argue that any military conflict that mostly involves men and male interests is never going to prioritise women's rights.
The only exception I can think of is the Kurdish female militia where women are actually motivated to defend their country's unprecedented commitment to women's rights (they have equal representation in separate male and female governments as well as a fairly radical feminist ideology where the patriarchy is characterised as the most enduring form of oppression) and they have the numbers to show it. They're not just cheering on their husbands against the backdrop of religious nationalism that denies them some very basic rights.
The only argument you seem to be making is that war destabilises a country, and because destabilisation negatively impacts women, pushing back on it is feminist in nature, and any degree of misogyny involved in this pushback is irrelevant because boohoo poor women need their hijabs to keep warm among bombing. Yeah and I'm sure they need their hijab too after their husbands beat and rape them. I also question this notion that defending a theocratic patriarchal country is something these women want when doing otherwise can get you executed as a traitor and tool of the West.
(Nov 29 2025, 9:08 AM)YesYourNigel(Nov 28 2025, 9:14 PM)Wrongtoy @yesyournigel Hind Khoudary is Gaza’s most famous living war journalist and has appeared without hijab for over two years nowEvery time Islamic misogyny is pointed out, you ignore most of it, rely on heavily cherrypicked examples (see, this one woman is allowed to not wear hijab, which also this proves hijab is freely chosen by all the women who do wear it), derail and keep making appeals over how something isn't misogynistic as long as women have bigger problems in life, or pull up false dichotomies. A radfem forum should have rules against this shit.
What is the point you are trying to make by cherrypicking a few women who don't wear headscarves? That hijab doesn't exist there? That it's not illegal to forego it? That theocratic Islamic governments like Hamas are not misogynistic? I can respect wanting to create a clearer picture of exactly what Iran and Gaza (and broadly Palestine, which is different from Hamas-lead Gaza) cultures are like instead of defaulting to the Saudi Arabia characterisation, but there's a massive difference between adding nuance, and engaging in apologia via cherrypicking, denial and claiming everything is taken out of context. It's not like Hamas are subtle about their commitment to religious fundamentalism, regardless of how strongly they enforce it in practice. Trump still hasn't enforced even a part of his christofascist ideology, but that doesn't mean he and his cronies aren't misogynistic.
A few women being allowed flexibility with hijab does not prove hijab is a figment of imagination or freely chosen. Hijab was brought back in the first place (forcefully) as part of a general move away from secularization and towards religious nationalism. You seem to be attacking strawmen that portray Gaza as akin to Saudi Arabia, but just because a place is not as extreme as another in terms of misogyny, doesn't mean it's not misogynistic (which is a fallacy called whataboutism). After all, islamic countries and their degree of misogyny are commonly used by Western men to prove that misogyny isn't a thing in the West, just because it's not as extreme.
Quote:The last thing these women need are amerisrseli interests blowing up their lives and then saying they had to do it to liberate women from the scarf on their head that women freely wear even after being “liberated” to to the west.
I think the last thing they need is their husbands legally punishing them for disobedience because they left the house without their permission.
Quote:But sure, let’s screech about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism that’s been great for global south women. The removal of the scarf solves all their problems,. As if it’s not at least a tiny bit a proxy?
And again, the same false dichotomy: either support Islamic misogyny and primitivism, or support military invasions to fuel the West's oil-based interests and proxy wars with Russia.
I would say hijab is a pretty good indicator of how far along an Islamic country is, yes. It's not that removing the scarf makes the country automatically progressive, it's that the scarf is forced upon women as part of general religious primitivism.
Quote:Feminism relational to the global south, ot to the resistance, or to brics, will necessarily present differently from western feminism.
So, this is liberal cultural relativism that is at odds with radical feminism. Women's humanity does not look different depending on which culture you're in, nor should nationalistic religious norms trump women's rights. The fact that women in many places have to take a back seat to male-lead nationalistic fervor because feminist consciousness is so undeveloped, or the human rights abuses that men put them through are so extreme that they need to focus on the worst of it, does not prove that nationalistic religious interests are freely prioritised by women. In fact, I would argue that any military conflict that mostly involves men and male interests is never going to prioritise women's rights.
The only exception I can think of is the Kurdish female militia where women are actually motivated to defend their country's unprecedented commitment to women's rights (they have equal representation in separate male and female governments as well as a fairly radical feminist ideology where the patriarchy is characterised as the most enduring form of oppression) and they have the numbers to show it. They're not just cheering on their husbands against the backdrop of religious nationalism that denies them some very basic rights.
The only argument you seem to be making is that war destabilises a country, and because destabilisation negatively impacts women, pushing back on it is feminist in nature, and any degree of misogyny involved in this pushback is irrelevant because boohoo poor women need their hijabs to keep warm among bombing. Yeah and I'm sure they need their hijab too after their husbands beat and rape them. I also question this notion that defending a theocratic patriarchal country is something these women want when doing otherwise can get you executed as a traitor and tool of the West.
(Nov 29 2025, 11:28 AM)Wrongtoy(Nov 29 2025, 9:08 AM)YesYourNigel(Nov 28 2025, 9:14 PM)Wrongtoy @yesyournigel Hind Khoudary is Gaza’s most famous living war journalist and has appeared without hijab for over two years nowEvery time Islamic misogyny is pointed out, you ignore most of it, rely on heavily cherrypicked examples (see, this one woman is allowed to not wear hijab, which also this proves hijab is freely chosen by all the women who do wear it), derail and keep making appeals over how something isn't misogynistic as long as women have bigger problems in life, or pull up false dichotomies. A radfem forum should have rules against this shit.
What is the point you are trying to make by cherrypicking a few women who don't wear headscarves? That hijab doesn't exist there? That it's not illegal to forego it? That theocratic Islamic governments like Hamas are not misogynistic? I can respect wanting to create a clearer picture of exactly what Iran and Gaza (and broadly Palestine, which is different from Hamas-lead Gaza) cultures are like instead of defaulting to the Saudi Arabia characterisation, but there's a massive difference between adding nuance, and engaging in apologia via cherrypicking, denial and claiming everything is taken out of context. It's not like Hamas are subtle about their commitment to religious fundamentalism, regardless of how strongly they enforce it in practice. Trump still hasn't enforced even a part of his christofascist ideology, but that doesn't mean he and his cronies aren't misogynistic.
A few women being allowed flexibility with hijab does not prove hijab is a figment of imagination or freely chosen. Hijab was brought back in the first place (forcefully) as part of a general move away from secularization and towards religious nationalism. You seem to be attacking strawmen that portray Gaza as akin to Saudi Arabia, but just because a place is not as extreme as another in terms of misogyny, doesn't mean it's not misogynistic (which is a fallacy called whataboutism). After all, islamic countries and their degree of misogyny are commonly used by Western men to prove that misogyny isn't a thing in the West, just because it's not as extreme.
Quote:The last thing these women need are amerisrseli interests blowing up their lives and then saying they had to do it to liberate women from the scarf on their head that women freely wear even after being “liberated” to to the west.
I think the last thing they need is their husbands legally punishing them for disobedience because they left the house without their permission.
Quote:But sure, let’s screech about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism that’s been great for global south women. The removal of the scarf solves all their problems,. As if it’s not at least a tiny bit a proxy?
And again, the same false dichotomy: either support Islamic misogyny and primitivism, or support military invasions to fuel the West's oil-based interests and proxy wars with Russia.
I would say hijab is a pretty good indicator of how far along an Islamic country is, yes. It's not that removing the scarf makes the country automatically progressive, it's that the scarf is forced upon women as part of general religious primitivism.
Quote:Feminism relational to the global south, ot to the resistance, or to brics, will necessarily present differently from western feminism.
So, this is liberal cultural relativism that is at odds with radical feminism. Women's humanity does not look different depending on which culture you're in, nor should nationalistic religious norms trump women's rights. The fact that women in many places have to take a back seat to male-lead nationalistic fervor because feminist consciousness is so undeveloped, or the human rights abuses that men put them through are so extreme that they need to focus on the worst of it, does not prove that nationalistic religious interests are freely prioritised by women. In fact, I would argue that any military conflict that mostly involves men and male interests is never going to prioritise women's rights.
The only exception I can think of is the Kurdish female militia where women are actually motivated to defend their country's unprecedented commitment to women's rights (they have equal representation in separate male and female governments as well as a fairly radical feminist ideology where the patriarchy is characterised as the most enduring form of oppression) and they have the numbers to show it. They're not just cheering on their husbands against the backdrop of religious nationalism that denies them some very basic rights.
The only argument you seem to be making is that war destabilises a country, and because destabilisation negatively impacts women, pushing back on it is feminist in nature, and any degree of misogyny involved in this pushback is irrelevant because boohoo poor women need their hijabs to keep warm among bombing. Yeah and I'm sure they need their hijab too after their husbands beat and rape them. I also question this notion that defending a theocratic patriarchal country is something these women want when doing otherwise can get you executed as a traitor and tool of the West.
Ht @clover, am I doing the formatting right?
@nigel Kellie Jay Keen has been seen berating hijabi who approach her to say that there is a thing such as Islamic feminism. Kjk openly demands that they remove their hijab permanently to have a conversation with this bastion of feminism who obviously spends a lot on this Marilyn Monroe look she cultivates as a feminist.
(Nov 29 2025, 11:28 AM)Wrongtoy(Nov 29 2025, 9:08 AM)YesYourNigel(Nov 28 2025, 9:14 PM)Wrongtoy @yesyournigel Hind Khoudary is Gaza’s most famous living war journalist and has appeared without hijab for over two years nowEvery time Islamic misogyny is pointed out, you ignore most of it, rely on heavily cherrypicked examples (see, this one woman is allowed to not wear hijab, which also this proves hijab is freely chosen by all the women who do wear it), derail and keep making appeals over how something isn't misogynistic as long as women have bigger problems in life, or pull up false dichotomies. A radfem forum should have rules against this shit.
What is the point you are trying to make by cherrypicking a few women who don't wear headscarves? That hijab doesn't exist there? That it's not illegal to forego it? That theocratic Islamic governments like Hamas are not misogynistic? I can respect wanting to create a clearer picture of exactly what Iran and Gaza (and broadly Palestine, which is different from Hamas-lead Gaza) cultures are like instead of defaulting to the Saudi Arabia characterisation, but there's a massive difference between adding nuance, and engaging in apologia via cherrypicking, denial and claiming everything is taken out of context. It's not like Hamas are subtle about their commitment to religious fundamentalism, regardless of how strongly they enforce it in practice. Trump still hasn't enforced even a part of his christofascist ideology, but that doesn't mean he and his cronies aren't misogynistic.
A few women being allowed flexibility with hijab does not prove hijab is a figment of imagination or freely chosen. Hijab was brought back in the first place (forcefully) as part of a general move away from secularization and towards religious nationalism. You seem to be attacking strawmen that portray Gaza as akin to Saudi Arabia, but just because a place is not as extreme as another in terms of misogyny, doesn't mean it's not misogynistic (which is a fallacy called whataboutism). After all, islamic countries and their degree of misogyny are commonly used by Western men to prove that misogyny isn't a thing in the West, just because it's not as extreme.
Quote:The last thing these women need are amerisrseli interests blowing up their lives and then saying they had to do it to liberate women from the scarf on their head that women freely wear even after being “liberated” to to the west.
I think the last thing they need is their husbands legally punishing them for disobedience because they left the house without their permission.
Quote:But sure, let’s screech about hijab and niquab so as to incite more western interventionslism that’s been great for global south women. The removal of the scarf solves all their problems,. As if it’s not at least a tiny bit a proxy?
And again, the same false dichotomy: either support Islamic misogyny and primitivism, or support military invasions to fuel the West's oil-based interests and proxy wars with Russia.
I would say hijab is a pretty good indicator of how far along an Islamic country is, yes. It's not that removing the scarf makes the country automatically progressive, it's that the scarf is forced upon women as part of general religious primitivism.
Quote:Feminism relational to the global south, ot to the resistance, or to brics, will necessarily present differently from western feminism.
So, this is liberal cultural relativism that is at odds with radical feminism. Women's humanity does not look different depending on which culture you're in, nor should nationalistic religious norms trump women's rights. The fact that women in many places have to take a back seat to male-lead nationalistic fervor because feminist consciousness is so undeveloped, or the human rights abuses that men put them through are so extreme that they need to focus on the worst of it, does not prove that nationalistic religious interests are freely prioritised by women. In fact, I would argue that any military conflict that mostly involves men and male interests is never going to prioritise women's rights.
The only exception I can think of is the Kurdish female militia where women are actually motivated to defend their country's unprecedented commitment to women's rights (they have equal representation in separate male and female governments as well as a fairly radical feminist ideology where the patriarchy is characterised as the most enduring form of oppression) and they have the numbers to show it. They're not just cheering on their husbands against the backdrop of religious nationalism that denies them some very basic rights.
The only argument you seem to be making is that war destabilises a country, and because destabilisation negatively impacts women, pushing back on it is feminist in nature, and any degree of misogyny involved in this pushback is irrelevant because boohoo poor women need their hijabs to keep warm among bombing. Yeah and I'm sure they need their hijab too after their husbands beat and rape them. I also question this notion that defending a theocratic patriarchal country is something these women want when doing otherwise can get you executed as a traitor and tool of the West.
Ht @clover, am I doing the formatting right?
@nigel Kellie Jay Keen has been seen berating hijabi who approach her to say that there is a thing such as Islamic feminism. Kjk openly demands that they remove their hijab permanently to have a conversation with this bastion of feminism who obviously spends a lot on this Marilyn Monroe look she cultivates as a feminist.
